4th generation USN against 5th generation USMC

[mor10]

how would a USMC expeditionary force, with a full compliment of F-35Bs, fare against a USN carrier group without any F-35C's, purely based on their air assets and air defense capabilities.

Personally I think the USN would get a bloody nose.

[geforcerfx]

If the marines are attacking that's a lot of fighters to have to overcome. The CVN has a larger escort, Aegis ships with SM6's and Hawkeyes in the air for radar coverage. With the ability to launch a lot of aircraft off quickly, The marines would have like 12 F-35's usually, so how do you carry enough weaponry to take down the air cover and take out the cvn? That's where I see them having problems, at most you have 48 amramms, but then no strike capability. I just don't see the F-35B being able to bring enough weaponry to that big of a fight, unless this is a maxed out amphib which would have like 20-24 F-35B's then it would at least become possible.

[popcorn]

If the fight is limited to strike aircraft in each air wing then lots of Marine pilots make Ace.

[squirrelshoes]

I'm not sure the MEF would stock dedicated antiship weapons for their F-35Bs.

Sure they could use LGBs but that would be a serious disadvantage to the CVW coming with SLAM-ERs and whatever other standoff antiship weapons are in use (JSOW-C1, JSM, LRASM, etc.) by naval aviation when this scenario plays out. I guess one could further expand the scenario to have a MEF specifically geared for antisurface action instead of supporting their marines.

[popcorn]

Enough space in the ship's magazines to store some AShMs for contingencies eg. Taffy 3.

[squirrelshoes]

Having space is different than actually having the weapons to put in that space.

I don't think USMC has any plans to procure dedicated antiship weapons for their F-35Bs, so the MER wouldn't have them no matter how much space they have.

[popcorn]

Given the Navy's emphasis on Distributed Lethality it's a no-brainer to carry the ordnance for the F-35B to execute the ASuW mission as the need dictates.

[squirrelshoes]

The need dictates being fighting a USN carrier group? Of course not. I could be wrong but I've not seen ANY plans to arm F-35Bs or train their pilots to employ LRASM, SLAM-ER, etc. so where are getting this no brainer assumption they would carry those weapons on an amphib?

Obviously current amphibs with Harriers aren't stocking cruise missiles, I understand there is talk of the mini-carrier concept but are there any concrete plans to implement the necessary training and infrastructure to actually stock antiship cruise missiles on amphibs?

[steve2267]

Reading between the lines here, there would seem to be no disagreement that the USMC F-35Bs would mop the battlespace with the USN F-18C/D/E/Fs. The question boils down to

• Does USN assets find USMC surface assets with their anti-ship armaments?
• How can USMC, which lacks the anti-ship assets to hurt the USN surface vessels, attack the USN surface combatants

which seems to suggest that the USMC wins the air-battle, but loses the surface war...

Unless, somehow, the USMC can pull off a Midway and rain down iron bombs, smart or other, on the USN carriers...

[SpudmanWP]

Block 3F F-35s will have JSOW & Block 4+ will have LRASM, JASSM, JSM, SOM, and any other UAI connected munition that comes down the pipeline.

[hythelday]

..seems to suggest that the USMC wins the air-battle, but loses the surface war...

Unless, somehow, the USMC can pull off a Midway and rain down iron bombs, smart or other, on the USN carriers...

AFAIK original question was Marine ESG vs US Navy CSG... which both should have CGs and DDG, which could have SM-6 or Block IV TLAMs that could target vessels. If F-35Bs can take out C-2s and blind shipborne sensors - Navy goes blub blub. However if Navy locates ESG ships in advance a fully stocked CV's airwing can rush their defences and potentially sink LHAs leaving Marines no place to land.

Alternative: Marines use some of those Infantry Ingress Underwing Pods, perform a sneaky landing on CV and take over

[jessmo111]

IMHO, the F-35s would offer a serious advantage in detecting the Navy carriers 1st. Once the group is located its only a matter of time before F-35Bs sneak in and mission kill the CVN. I would attack at night and put LGBs all through the deck.

[SpudmanWP]

I wonder how far an F-35B can lob-toss a 1k Paveway?

[squirrelshoes]

Or a JSOW-C1.

I think that would be a far more likely munition in the stores of a MEF than any cruise missiles, granted wouldn't sink a carrier but enough might mission kill and I sure wouldn't want to be on a smaller ship that had one get through to impact.

[squirrelshoes]

IMHO, the F-35s would offer a serious advantage in detecting the Navy carriers 1st.

Plane for plane they probably do, but remember the carrier has a lot more of them including some pretty solid dedicated survelliance aircraft as well especially E-2D with AN/APY-9.