F-35A vs B vs C

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Nov 2018, 17:37

Your instructor was GOLD: "...it’s easy to talk about shooting down your opponent, it’s another thing to actually do it....."
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tailgate

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Unread post05 Nov 2018, 20:12

spazsinbad wrote:Your instructor was GOLD: "...it’s easy to talk about shooting down your opponent, it’s another thing to actually do it....."


Greets. When I go to reunions, a common thread is how munched we learned from the “Old Hands”. When left for UPT, My dad, a retired Col........told me to keep my mouth shut, my ears open, my brain active, and my eyes always scanning......

But I will tell you, some of the best training I ever received was from “seasoned” phantom drivers in the Navy A-4 and USAF F-5. Those sessions proved vital in determining strengths and weakness’ and honing overall tactics. Those exercises also were crucial in the development of team building. Nobody does it better than the US Fighter Pilot, and training is one of the keys to this success. It’s one reason we always fought to always fund out training programs and exercises
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wrightwing

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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 01:43

zero-one wrote:Yeah, well thats unlikely.
The USAF and USMC seem to be perfectly happy with the Kinematic performance of their F-35s. They are already capable dogfighters even if they are expected to rarely perform that role at all. Upgrades will be focused on Stealth and Sensor capabilities, any improvements in kinematics will likely come from engine upgrades.

As it stands, the C model seems to have best kinematic performance in most cases. The A is probably better in acceleration, I used to think that it will also have better E-M characteristics, however I'm beginning to believe that the C is better.

As the engineers here have said before, turn performance is generally determined by 2 factors, Lift limit and Thrust limit, there are also other factors like drag etc. And in 2012, with the infamous reduced sustained G KPP proposal, the C model had the highest sustained G proposal at 5Gs while the A and B were at 4.6 and 4.5 Gs respectively.

All this coupled with the pilot statements that the C seems to be their favorite performer leads me to believe that the C is really the best performing F-35 variant. The only think lackluster about it is acceleration, and with more powerful engines, acceleration could be brought to near F-16 ballparks. I'd say as it stand the F-35C is the best dogfighting machine the US Navy has ever had.

The A has the best kinematic performance (i.e. acceleration, climb rate, STR), the C has the best turn radius. All 3 jets will be getting more powerful motors in the 2020s.
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marsavian

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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 02:08

C has the best STR, A has the best ITR.
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popcorn

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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 02:55

marsavian wrote:C has the best STR, A has the best ITR.

Yeah, but only the B can fly in reverse. :mrgreen:
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 03:02

:roll: HOVER in Reverse. :doh:
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zero-one

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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 07:45

wrightwing wrote:The A has the best kinematic performance (i.e. acceleration, climb rate, STR), the C has the best turn radius.


See thats what common sense will tell us. It also makes the most logical sense. However this is not the first time Pilots have come out with statements like Mr. Flynn's.
The C is the Airframe that the airplane was really designed to be. Thats saying a lot. I'm sure he didn't just say that because the C has smaller turn radius. Something tells me the Sea variant's flight characteristics stand out considerably compared to others.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 15:34

zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The A has the best kinematic performance (i.e. acceleration, climb rate, STR), the C has the best turn radius.


See thats what common sense will tell us. It also makes the most logical sense. However this is not the first time Pilots have come out with statements like Mr. Flynn's.
The C is the Airframe that the airplane was really designed to be. Thats saying a lot. I'm sure he didn't just say that because the C has smaller turn radius. Something tells me the Sea variant's flight characteristics stand out considerably compared to others.



Its going to be slower Transonic and for as much as people gripe about the B's liftfan weight penalty, any airplane designed for CVN use is carrying extra weight around. The Undercarriage alone adds weight, before we get into the structure at all.

Seeing an "A" with "C" wings and tails would be neat.
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marsavian

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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 15:51

Seeing an "A" with "C" wings and tails would be neat.


Agreed, perhaps in the 2030s when the F-35 has some Western stealth export competition they could do such a new model, D ?, which is then tuned for transonic / supersonic drag so it doesn't appreciably lose the A acceleration but has more endurance and turning ability and perhaps top end speed too. Seems a natural evolution for the future after current orders wind down.
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zero-one

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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 16:21

XanderCrews wrote:
Its going to be slower Transonic and for as much as people gripe about the B's liftfan weight penalty, any airplane designed for CVN use is carrying extra weight around. The Undercarriage alone adds weight, before we get into the structure at all.

Seeing an "A" with "C" wings and tails would be neat.


Thats true, is it also correct to assume that the C is better in most turning aspects except for max high G turn, and better in most climbing aspects except for a straight up power climb and like you said, transonic acceleration would also be worse.

But she is noticeably better in all other aspects.

Having an A with bigger wings may only be implemented for additional range. The US does not typically do major redesigns of air-frames for Kinematic purposes unless the original airframe was proven to be woefully incapable in that aspect. (i.e. wing modifications for the F-4 to improve agility)

If anything, latter versions become a tad less maneuverable due to weight growth. (i.e. Sprts said that the F-15A is still the best turning F-15 variant). This is just my general observation, there are exceptions. The F-16V block 70 with GE-132 could be the best performing F-16 ever but this is largely due to India's specific maneuvering requirements.
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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 17:00

"But she is noticeably better in all other aspects."

No. The 'A' and 'B' are also significantly better in subsonic accel, as well.
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Unread post06 Nov 2018, 22:33

zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The A has the best kinematic performance (i.e. acceleration, climb rate, STR), the C has the best turn radius.


See thats what common sense will tell us. It also makes the most logical sense. However this is not the first time Pilots have come out with statements like Mr. Flynn's.
The C is the Airframe that the airplane was really designed to be. Thats saying a lot. I'm sure he didn't just say that because the C has smaller turn radius. Something tells me the Sea variant's flight characteristics stand out considerably compared to others.

The C has the best ITR/min radius turn. The A is superior at pretty much everything else.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post07 Nov 2018, 03:29

Could we ever see a Landbased F-35C???
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Unread post07 Nov 2018, 06:01

Corsair1963 wrote:Could we ever see a Landbased F-35C???


Oh, Canaduhduhduh
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post07 Nov 2018, 07:43

quicksilver wrote:No. The 'A' and 'B' are also significantly better in subsonic accel, as well.


yes but I'm not sure if the advantage would be that much larger compared to the hugh gap in Transonic Accel.


wrightwing wrote:The C has the best ITR/min radius turn. The A is superior at pretty much everything else.


If thats true, then why is the C version the the favorite of pilots who fly it? Its hard to believe that the reason they favor the C over the A is simply because of sustained turn rate.

Billie Flynn talked about climb, landing and turning. There was another pilot who said something like all models can turn very well but the C is "really special"

To be fair, I would agree that the A model should be the best performing model, it has the most power and the least amount of drag. But pilots are singing a different tune. The C has the most lift. and has nearly 50% more lift from the wings than the A and B. What if Lift compensates for the lack of power?
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