4 F-35Bs take out 9 attackers

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

geogen

Banned

  • Posts: 3123
  • Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 15:28
  • Location: 45 km offshore, New England

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 04:34

nht wrote:Good lord that breaking defense article was poorly written. Here's a better one where the General's statements make more sense:

Money quote:

"I am very confident that I could send them pretty much to pretty much anyplace in the world to employ this weapon systems in a close air support environment," he added. "My Marines would get the support on the ground from this airplane and I don't need a big support package to go in and clear the airspace for them. They'll be able to go in as a two-ship or a four-ship and be able to do the CAS we need to do without a big support package -- that is unprecedented."


The context of the threats that they wouldn't put a F-18 or Harrier in isn't an air threat but presumably a modern IADS with double digit SAMs.



Perhaps you are right. But if so, with all due respect the General in charge should be more respectful of not revealing vital national security information. Such revelation is not acceptable as to the true capabilities with HTS pod + HARM + ECM pod vs an adversarial SAM defense which could be otherwise attacked by a 2 ship with LGB.

Totally unprofessional in my humble opinion. I'm sorry for such a critical remark.

However, if he's saying that 4 modern, upgraded F-16 with say, next-gen AESA + IRST + next gen SNIPER pod + 4 AIM-120D + MICA IR even could not perform as well in air-air as would said IOC F-35B with only 2x AIM-120 each... then that too would arguably be a possible breach of leaked confidential information! Perhaps worthy of an investigation even, in my humble opinion. Again, sorry for such critical remark, but let's please be serious about his statements!

He says the F-16 is pretty good?!? WTF
Last edited by geogen on 30 Jul 2015, 04:44, edited 1 time in total.
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24283
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 04:42

Aaahhh this is the fun part of having multiple posts of the same article in different threads and even in different subsections. I just wuv it. Anyhoo I have made a point about the 'mis'quoting of the good generale's comments in another thread about the same and similar articles. I may find it or I might just go outside and could be some time.... SHIRLEY reporters have recorders that can replay words for exact quotes? Mebbe I ask too much - pencil and paper it is squire eh - in this straightened tymes - the internet has made reporters into even more idiots than they were before that invention.

Go hear for the Beer: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27186&p=296913&hilit=quote#p296913
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7719
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 05:54

@geogen
The General made some deliberately general statements, lacking in specifics to describe the various training scenarios, for obvious reasons. Somehow you've managed to weave your own version of things, making all sorts of assumptions on alternative specific platform/sensors/weapons combinations that somehow make sense to you And based purely on your speculations, you imply he is unprofessional and should be investigated for possible OPSEC breach for leaking vital national security information?
So how is the General responsible for what goes on inside your head?
Saying "with all due respect to the general in charge" to start off your post doesn't excuse your little witch hunt.
Last edited by popcorn on 30 Jul 2015, 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline

mk82

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 849
  • Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 18:43
  • Location: Australia

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 05:58

sferrin wrote:BS is already spinning it. "Davis's statement means the cube root of eff-all. ". :lmao:


Let me correct that..... In regards to BS's statement on the Gripen NG being sixth generation and anything JSF related "BS's statement means the cube root of eff-all"

There....much better! The Swiss certainly think so :devil:
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6370
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 15:10

geogen wrote:

Perhaps you are right. But if so, with all due respect the General in charge should be more respectful of not revealing vital national security information. Such revelation is not acceptable as to the true capabilities with HTS pod + HARM + ECM pod vs an adversarial SAM defense which could be otherwise attacked by a 2 ship with LGB.

Totally unprofessional in my humble opinion. I'm sorry for such a critical remark.



Where did he reveal "vital national security information" please? be specific. If you want to cast stones you need this stuff called "proof"

Please tell me exactly how he violated national security by "revealing" something that uniformed people have said on multiple occasions as one of the reasons to buy the oft maligned F-35?

You can flip between the two without ever forgetting where you were on the last one.

And let me explain that a little bit better. In the F-18, when we were going to air-to-ground mode specifically on the strike, and we are using the radar, and if we want to the targeting pod, we would get to a certain point in time in the mission, where we have to use some sort of a planning tool.

The pilot would have to sort out when he would be able to go all heads down to try to find the target and employ on the target.

And I need to have a certain amount of distance between me and a threat so that when I come heads back up and start looking for possibly an air breathing threat or a surface-to-air missile, would need to suspend the task of employing that piece of ordinance or that weapon for the CAS mission.

This airplane’s different because with the data being fused, I’m not using multiple different displays with each.

The main difference that I see between federated and fused systems is in the F-18, not only was it all in different displays, but each sensor had its own uncertainty volumes and algorithms associated with it.

It was up to me as an aviator knowing the capabilities and limitations in my system to decipher and draw the line between the mission sets.

In the F-35, the fusion engine does a lot of that in the background, while simultaneously, I can be executing an air-to-air mission or an air-to-ground mission, and have an air-to-air track file up, or multiple air-to-air track files, and determine how to flip missions.

Because the fidelity of the data is there right now, which allows me to determine if I need to go back into an air-to-air mindset because I have to deal with this right now as opposed to continuing the CAS mission.

And I have a much broader set of integrated tool sets to draw upon.

For example, if I need an electronic warfare tool set, with the F-18 I have to call in a separate aircraft to provide for that capability.

With the F-35 I have organic EW capability. The EW capability works well in the aircraft. From the time it is recognized that such a capability is need to the time that it is used requires a push of a button.

It does not require that a supporting asset be deployed.

Now we’re going to have a pilot that’s versed in doing CAS, if he needs to use the electromagnetic spectrum or exploit it to accomplish his mission, he’ll be educated and have the equipment to do so.

If he needs to use it in the air-to-air arena to exploit it, to accomplish his mission, he’ll have the training and the equipment needed to use it as well.

In the current situation, I would deploy a Prowler to work with my legacy fighters.

The Prowler would have to be sortied and would operate only for a period of time and in a specific operational area.

With the low observability of the F-35 combined with the organic EW capability of the aircraft, the aircraft expands my capabilities for both air-to-air and CAS.


Major Summa, USMC.

Be specific Geo

Your concern trolling is reaching new peaks

However, if he's saying that 4 modern, upgraded F-16 with say, next-gen AESA + IRST + next gen SNIPER pod + 4 AIM-120D + MICA IR even could not perform as well in air-air as would said IOC F-35B with only 2x AIM-120 each... then that too would arguably be a possible breach of leaked confidential information! Perhaps worthy of an investigation even, in my humble opinion. Again, sorry for such critical remark, but let's please be serious about his statements!


Now we are going over what he didn't say that he should not have said? You need to get on some kind of medication. :doh:

Geogen is just upset that he can't rebut any of this, so he is trying to attack the general for broad statements, Its really simple. The Irony is people whine about the F-35 all the time and cast doubts constantly including doubts on statements made by the people who operate it every day. People complain about the price and try and compare it 4th gen fighters, and then it goes and beats 4th gen airplanes and after years of detractors saying "Prove it!" --it gets proven and then they suddenly get into a tizzy about invented breaches of national security.

You can't make this stuff up! :mrgreen:
Last edited by XanderCrews on 30 Jul 2015, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6370
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 15:10

popcorn wrote:@geogen
The General made some deliberately general statements, lacking in specifics to describe the various training scenarios, for obvious reasons. Somehow you've managed to weave your own version of things, making all sorts of assumptions on alternative specific platform/sensors/weapons combinations that somehow make sense to you And based purely on your speculations, you imply he is unprofessional and should be investigated for possible OPSEC breach for leaking vital national security information?
So how is the General responsible for what goes on inside your head?
Saying "with all due respect to the general in charge" to start off your post doesn't excuse your little witch hunt.


Agreed.

waiting for an apology Geo.
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5554
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 15:20

Wait a second here. Did I just see Geogen say that if the F-35 is better than the F-16 those who know shouldn't be allowed to say so? :lmao:
"There I was. . ."
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7719
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 15:39

XanderCrews wrote:
popcorn wrote:@geogen
The General made some deliberately general statements, lacking in specifics to describe the various training scenarios, for obvious reasons. Somehow you've managed to weave your own version of things, making all sorts of assumptions on alternative specific platform/sensors/weapons combinations that somehow make sense to you And based purely on your speculations, you imply he is unprofessional and should be investigated for possible OPSEC breach for leaking vital national security information?
So how is the General responsible for what goes on inside your head?
Saying "with all due respect to the general in charge" to start off your post doesn't excuse your little witch hunt.


Agreed.

waiting for an apology Geo.

Don't hold your breath. SOP is to go into hibernation until statute of limitations on dumb posts expires.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6370
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post30 Jul 2015, 17:31

sferrin wrote:Wait a second here. Did I just see Geogen say that if the F-35 is better than the F-16 those who know shouldn't be allowed to say so? :lmao:



That's precisely what he said. It's a big secret that the F-35 will be superior to what it is replacing

Someone get him a fainting couch

For those of you keeping score st home geogen had no issues commenting on the illegally obtained F-16 BFM alpha test Axe posted, but he is accusing a Flag officer of violating national security protocols here
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24283
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post31 Jul 2015, 22:45

Over on previous page of this thread a question was asked about MADL/LINK 16 which has been answered kindly by Amy Butler. Go here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27640&p=297102&hilit=Shirley#p297102
U.S. Marines Declare First F-35B Squadron Operational
31 Jul 2015 Amy Butler

"....Another limitation for the early, 2B F-35s is limited use of the aircraft’s Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL) datalink, which is designed to covertly share a pilot’s situational awareness data, including airborne and ground targets. Designed to operate among a four-aircraft formation of aircraft, thus far MADL is only reliable in two-aircraft formations. Temporarily, the Marines plan to get around this snag by linking two 2-aircraft formations with the legacy Link 16 datalink.

The drawback to this strategy is that Link 16 is not covert; because it broadcasts, an enemy could detect it, unmasking an F-35s general location. MADL employs a waveform and directional antenna that allows it to maintain its stealthy posture, key in penetrating well-defended airspace.

F-35 program officials have tested a software patch to improve the reliability of the datalink across four-aircraft formations, and the Marines are set to get it as soon as possible. “Right now I don’t have fusion on anything,” Davis said during a press telecom July 27. But they opted to declare IOC in the meantime to begin retiring aging Hornets and Harriers as soon as possible...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/us-mari ... perational
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

vilters

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1154
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2009, 00:16

Unread post01 Aug 2015, 10:58

Anybody read the ROE's? => Attackers; "You have to loose out or we have another media storm on our neck."

Declarations like these prove nothing without getting all the facts and figures.
Offline

mk82

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 849
  • Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 18:43
  • Location: Australia

Unread post01 Aug 2015, 11:49

vilters wrote:Anybody read the ROE's? => Attackers; "You have to loose out or we have another media storm on our neck."

Declarations like these prove nothing without getting all the facts and figures.


Yes, it will be nice to know the ROEs of the simulated engagement during the ORI. But....do you think Lt Gen Jon Davis would put his neck and reputation on the line if the F35B is actually truly deficient in air to air combat?
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6370
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post01 Aug 2015, 15:50

mk82 wrote:
vilters wrote:Anybody read the ROE's? => Attackers; "You have to loose out or we have another media storm on our neck."

Declarations like these prove nothing without getting all the facts and figures.


Yes, it will be nice to know the ROEs of the simulated engagement during the ORI. But....do you think Lt Gen Jon Davis would put his neck and reputation on the line if the F35B is actually truly deficient in air to air combat?


Or the lives of his Marines? And why wouldn't those Marines who's necks are on the line be the first to balk? Why would the "attackers" (yet more personnel) play along with such a plan?

I'm reporting Vilters as a troll. This has gone on long enough


The problem with consipracy nuts:
...they don't just think government is corrupt. They think everybody, and I mean everybody, is either evil on a demonic scale, or a mindless sheep.

...And that, is the conspiracy mindset.

It's not a belief in corrupt leaders. Hell, we all believe in corrupt leaders. It's a belief in a corrupt everybody. It's driving around in a world where every single person you see out of your windshield is utterly bloodthirsty and amoral, all except for you and a few, brave friends. What could make you feel more important than that?

You can see the attraction right away. Most people, to feel special, have to actually do something special. But why not do what these guys do, and just make the rest of the world out to be wretched? Hell, once we've painted everyone else as mindless or murderous, all we have to do to feel superior to them is roll out of bed.

...They're merely filling a basic human need, using their imaginations and paranoia to elevate themselves to a level the real world will never elevate them to. Also, they're retarded.


-- David Wong.
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5554
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post01 Aug 2015, 23:16

XanderCrews wrote:Or the lives of his Marines? And why wouldn't those Marines who's necks are on the line be the first to balk? Why would the "attackers" (yet more personnel) play along with such a plan?

I'm reporting Vilters as a troll. This has gone on long enough


The problem with consipracy nuts:


No kidding. When's the last time the military said, "yeah, give us that POS?"
"There I was. . ."
Offline
User avatar

KamenRiderBlade

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2640
  • Joined: 24 Nov 2012, 02:20
  • Location: USA

Unread post02 Aug 2015, 00:05

XanderCrews wrote:
sferrin wrote:Wait a second here. Did I just see Geogen say that if the F-35 is better than the F-16 those who know shouldn't be allowed to say so? :lmao:



That's precisely what he said. It's a big secret that the F-35 will be superior to what it is replacing

Someone get him a fainting couch

For those of you keeping score st home geogen had no issues commenting on the illegally obtained F-16 BFM alpha test Axe posted, but he is accusing a Flag officer of violating national security protocols here


Ah double standards, the Anti-JSF folks have no problems with that. As long as it suits their agenda.
PreviousNext

Return to F-35 versus XYZ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests