Test pilot admits the F35 cant dogfight

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 03:31

zero-one wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:it doesn't matter. the simple fact is that the environment is simply too lethal.


True, but it won't necessarily stop it from happening.


of course it stops it from happening. Pilots will be told to shoot and scoot, avoid visual combat, avoid environments that increase risk. it doesn't mean that poo won't happen and WVR will rarely occur. my point is that it will occur so rarely as to be rendered a footnote. what would have once upon a time have been 10 merges in 100 engagements will drastically shrink, because again we the pilots will be told in no uncertain terms to avoid it.

thats the whole point-- don't fly your F-35 like its an F-16 in 1982.

We didn't give you a sub MOA rifle with an 800 Meter optic and thousands of hours of training so you could do a bayonet charge. etc etc.

I think the recent Mig-21 shoot down was an example of a HOBS on HOBS encounter.


those 5th gen Mig-21s are really something.

Here is the F-35 dogfight controversy in a nutshell, with a personal anecdote thrown in.


The F-35 meets or exceeds 4th generation kinematics, all the way back in 2011 it pulled 9.9G and flew to mach 1.66. its perfectly capable of dogfighting with anything out there, unless one wants to try and say that F-16s or F-15s or F-18s are suddenly "bad" at dogfighting. The F-35B greatly exceeds the harrier, and the harrier actually has an amazing array of kills. more than the F-18 in fact.

basically the F-35 was next up after the kinematic awe of the F-22, which didn't help as it embarrasses everything before it. next, F-35 was promoted as so lethal as to not need to dogfight. this was then taken by people straight back to "muh Vietnam" where some hard lessons were to be learned and the dogfight had been prematurely declared obsolete. There was some merit in this-- however those lessons has been deeply absorbed and we have fought multiple air actions in the DECADES since vietnam, they have been nearly universally brutal toward the enemy and completely one sided. The vast majority of American kills since Vietnam have been BVR.

people basically took it and twisted it. if you can see your opponents cards a lot of pokers' strategy can be ignored. this is like people complaining that you aren't playing by those no unneeded strategies as one doesn't have to "bluff" or other nonsense when they know already. "oh your P-51 is so great compared to my sopwith camel? you don't even have wing rigging!" technology advances, and in airpower especially at an astonishing rate.

so what happened was the F-35 not really needing to dogfight became that it couldn't dogfight

one of the best Marines I ever met was a Sgt. who was a mortarman by trade, but was also a blackbelt in Akido and MCMAP (back when that meant something) now a mortar can kill things kilometers away, but I don't feel like we should have to constantly specify that although my Sgt could and should be able to rain steel on badguys miles away, and that was his primary specialty that he could also kill people hand to hand. he was perfectly capable of such, and should his mortar fail he would go to a rifle or even a handgun, and bayonet before finally going hand to hand, I think we would be remiss to believe that a mortarman having to resort to such things didn't mean a lot had gone horribly wrong in the first place, and of course by engaging in hand to hand combat, whomever was relying on his fire support was now without it. in other words, we avoid that because its not the most effective use of our resources, even though we could indeed do it the dumber, less efficient, more risky way.

And this is whats frustrating about the modern internet age. People generally speak by giving pertinent information and leaving other stuff out for the purpose of brevity. but now, whatever is left out is now twisted into an absence or lack of something:

"Generally speaking, most women are shorter than men"

then you wait to hear about someone's female cousin who is 6 foot 3, and again since we didn't specify the exception enough, so people declare it a falsehood, when that is not what is said at all. we should have to specify every tall female in the world.

we really shouldn't have to read out the f-35s resume and capabilities down to the tenth of G every time we talk about it, or else that means somehow by not mentioning dogfighting, it somehow can't do it but thats what it has been relegated to by a handful of either geneuine amatures, or in some cases, those with an actual monetary stake in driving such a falsehood in order to hopefully sell their wares to an unsuspecting public.

it really is ridiculous like a child that needs constant reassurances from mommy :roll:
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 04:10

squirrelshoes wrote:
zero-one wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:How about providing a link so others may gauge how an F-22 & an Su-35 merged somehow (on the F-35 sub forum no less).

Others? Everyone else seems to have heard about it already, but for reference, heres the interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguVV7SH9eY&t=2298s

In other news, TU-95s have also managed to merge with F-22s.

Just in by ancient e-mail [did they MERGE?]: "VF-114 F-14 Tomcat escorting a Tu-95" and nice reply ZanderCrue...
And a merge for all seasons TOMcat V skyHAWK.
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 14:13

XanderCrews wrote:of course it stops it from happening. Pilots will be told to shoot and scoot, avoid visual combat, avoid environments that increase risk. it doesn't mean that poo won't happen and WVR will rarely occur.


I'm not disputing that, it will be rare for sure, how rare, I don't know, I don't think 10 out of a hundred specially against high end targets is unrealistic, and those are not far from Lockheed's own estimates, I can no longer find the link but they said that they expect ~60% of future air combat to be BVR, ~30% to be TVR (trans visual range) and 7% to be WVR.

XanderCrews wrote:thats the whole point-- don't fly your F-35 like its an F-16 in 1982.

yes but you also won't always be going against Mig-23s like it was 1982

XanderCrews wrote:Here is the F-35 dogfight controversy in a nutshell, with a personal anecdote thrown in.

yes it can, in fact, I would put an F-35's kinematics above an F-16C and F/A-18C because it combines the best characteristics of both

XanderCrews wrote:those 5th gen Mig-21s are really something.

but didn't you guys say, WVR will be too lethal and should be avoided at all cost,
I guess now it only applies if you're in a 5th gen

I've heard this story before, ACEVAL\AIMVAL said all aspect heaters will result in mutual kill scenarios, which required a fire and forget missile for A-a engagements
Desert storm came and went, we've had plenty of WVR scenarios during and after that, involving all aspect, most of the time without Aim-120s on our side, but this much vaunted mutual kill scenario can't seem to happen, :shrug:

spazsinbad wrote:In other news, TU-95s have also managed to merge with F-22s.


yes they have, and Su-35's and F-4s for that matter. But will we always expect these routine merges to be uneventful because they are not in a "shooting war"
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 15:04

This latest round of ‘he said, she said’ seems to be predicated on the claim by zero that some unnamed someone said a ‘merge’ was ‘impossible.’

Tell us zero — who, exactly, said it was, (quote) impossible?
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 15:39

NOPE it was SQUIRRELYclogman wot rote it
squirrelshoes wrote:
zero-one wrote:

Others? Everyone else seems to have heard about it already, but for reference, heres the interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguVV7SH9eY&t=2298s

In other news, TU-95s have also managed to merge with F-22s.
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 16:27

Huh??

Read my question again.
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 16:34

quicksilver wrote:Tell us zero — who, exactly, said it was, (quote) impossible?

There are a few of these going around. just back read a few pages.

spazsinbad wrote: As has been explained now more times than I can count & explained by the knowledgeable people in their replies here again 'the merge' as you call it ain't gonna happen.
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 19:47

zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:Tell us zero — who, exactly, said it was, (quote) impossible?

There are a few of these going around. just back read a few pages.

spazsinbad wrote: As has been explained now more times than I can count & explained by the knowledgeable people in their replies here again 'the merge' as you call it ain't gonna happen.


Got it. Thx.

Seems the proverbial horse should be long ago dead, and now buried.
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Unread post27 Oct 2020, 20:29

zero-one wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
thats the whole point-- don't fly your F-35 like its an F-16 in 1982.

yes but you also won't always be going against Mig-23s like it was 1982


so... we are saying the same thing in a different way?


but didn't you guys say, WVR will be too lethal and should be avoided at all cost,
I guess now it only applies if you're in a 5th gen


I think one should avoid the dangers of drinking and driving as well, but damned if people don't still do it.

boy you got me there!

haha xander! You said don't do dumb $hit, but then this person still did dumb $hit!

check mate alright.

without being mean to certain countries, (or any competitive thing really) there are some things you can get away with vs lower competition. The things you can get away with against a noob, may get you crushed against someone with some experience. think of any competition. you can pull silly tricks with lower competitors that would get you wrecked if you tried them against someone with experience or skill.

people do really stupid stuff sometimes as a matter of course. The US military with its nearly religious belief in "safety" has far less risk tolerance than many other militaries out there as well.

I've heard this story before, ACEVAL\AIMVAL said all aspect heaters will result in mutual kill scenarios, which required a fire and forget missile for A-a engagements
Desert storm came and went, we've had plenty of WVR scenarios during and after that, involving all aspect, most of the time without Aim-120s on our side, but this much vaunted mutual kill scenario can't seem to happen, :shrug:


share the numbers, I'm curious

elaborate on this
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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 00:34

Another MERGE via E-mail: "VF-151 F-4B Phantom II intercepts a TU-94D early 1970s"
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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 01:06

Hear's hoping the ALLIES with F-35s take notice in a GENERAL sense - seems RAAF does this already - avoid DOGfights! :roll:
Wilsbach to Allies: Learn from USAF’s Mistakes, Fly Your F-35 Like an F-35
27 Oct 2020 John A. Tirpak

"Pacific Air Forces commander Gen. Kenneth S. Wilsbach has some advice for users of the F-35 in his region: Don’t use it like the aircraft you’re used to, but take advantage of its full potential.

Speaking at an AFA Mitchell Institute virtual event Oct. 27, Wilsbach said the U.S. Air Force operated the F-22 like the F-15C for “about five years,” failing to fully exploit its fifth-generation stealth and sensor fusion capabilities. “It took us a while to learn” what the jet could really do, he said, and now, “the tactics are completely different.” He advises the F-35 partners to use the aircraft “like an F-35,” and not like some of the high-performance fourth-generation aircraft they have been operating.

“Take advantage of the lessons learned that we’ve had,” he said. “Skip right to that … and cycle through those lessons learned that much faster. Take full advantage of the platform.”

The advice “resonates with those operators,” he said. The U.S. has F-35 exchange pilots with Australia, Japan, & Korea, and “they all learn to fly it at Luke” Air Force Base, Ariz., so the foundation exists for a good partnership on the F-35 and other interoperable systems, he asserted....

...Stealth will also continue to be essential “to get inside of [an adversary’s] network and sensors undetected, so that they don’t know that they’re there, or when they do figure it out, it’s too late.”... [THEN THERE IS TALK OF INTERCEPTS]

[MERGE ME UP SCOTTIE!]

Source: https://www.airforcemag.com/wilsbach-to ... e-an-f-35/
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Unread post15 Nov 2020, 05:03

Confirmation of what we all already knew:

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