Test pilot admits the F35 cant dogfight

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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charlielima223

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Unread post07 Mar 2016, 10:41

tincansailor wrote:If it can do that it should be able to handle the various SU-27 derivatives. By the time the Indian's return to Red Flag with their SU-30MKI's the F-35A should be a participant. The post mortem on those encounters should be very interesting.


I would imagine it would look something like this. :)

THIS IS ALL A WORK OF FICTION
AF Times
F-35s Overwhelming and Revolutionized Red Flag
By TSgt Joe Snuffy

F-35s with the USAF Fighter Weapon School of Nellis AFB were the first to partake in Red Flag. Though all participating pilots of the F-35s graduated the USAF Fighter Weapon School in the F-35, their main objective was to apply what they have learned and to further develop and refine the curriculum of future Lightning II pilots. The experience gained from the pilots and maintainers of the F-35 will go a long way to better provide more knowledge to other F-35 units.

As usual Air Force units from around the US attended Red Flag as well as EA-18G Growlers from the USN. US Navy Growlers for the first time got to work in a mass exercise with the US Air Force's version of the F-35; the F-35A. EWOs of the Growlers were astounded by the effect the F-35 had for their aircraft. "The biggest difference that we noticed was the synergetic effect the F-35s had for our role. The F-35s advanced passive sensors gathered all the data we needed and then communicated to us what we had to do. It definitely made my life easier". Not to be out done, the F-35 also had a few tricks up its sleeves to assist the Growlers. "I didn't believe it until I saw it but the F-35 was doing almost as much EW as we were. It was easier for them because they are stealthy".

The F-35 is the largest international partnership and military contract in history. Many nations participating in this years Red Flag at Nellis AFB are nations that are getting their own F-35s. Nations such as Australia, Denmark, England, and South Korea.

RAF Typhoons who will soon be flying and operating with their own F-35Bs had a chance to really see what they had waiting for them. RAF Typhoon pilot John "Cricket" Edward had this to say. "We're currently building our own fleet of F-35s. This was our first chance to see what they can really do and I have to say I am impressed. Its capabilities were far more than what I expected". The knowledge gained from these Typhoon pilots will greatly assist them in developing tactics for their own fleet of F-35s.

F-35s were designed to network with other aircraft and platforms creating a level of connectivity and synergy that is unlike anything before it. More impressive is the synergetic effect that F-35 has with other F-35s as well as the F-22 Raptor. Raptors have been flying at Red Flag for some time now and with the F-35; one pilot put as "night and day". Major K, an F-22 pilot of 4 years with over 500 hours in the F-22 had more to learn. "We've been flying at Red Flag for some time now and we thought we had a good handle on things. We've refined tactics in the F-22 but what the F-35 brings, we might as well start writing a new book". Captain J another F-22 pilot with 1 combat deployment during OIR was impressed with what the F-35 brings to the table. "This was one of the hardest Red Flags I've participated in. Not so much because of our opponents but because of the learning curve". F-35s along with F-22s created a deadly effect. F-16 Aggressor pilot Lt.Col "Soup" Campbell says, "Every time those two aircraft were together; it was like flying into a brick wall. My aircraft is great in a close range dogfight but with those two I couldn't even get there".

Also attending this years Red Flag again were Su-30MKIs from India. This would be their third time in Red Flag at Nellis since 2016. The Su-30MKIs had new electronics and an upgraded engine. Indian pilots were surprised with the F-35. The Su-30MKIs performed as they expected but the F-35 was more than they were ready for. Indian pilots were excited to fly with the F-35 but they showed less enthusiasm when they flew against it. An Indian pilot of the Su-30MKI described it as "very challenging". India will be getting their own stealth aircraft but theirs is a partnership with Russian aerospace company Sukhoi currently testing and developing their HAL FGFA.

With just its first appearance the F-35 Lightning II has already made it's mark on Red Flag. After action reports have all claimed that the F-35 was "overwhelming" and "revolutionary". Despite this the F-35 pilots and maintainers still confess that they have a long way to go. USAF Fighter Weapon School instructor as well as F-35 pilot had this to say, "I have a feeling this is just the tip of the iceberg. We'll be flying this jet for years to come so we still have more to learn".
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mixelflick

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Unread post12 Mar 2016, 13:19

Finally! Lockheed Martin should be taking the comments by F16, F22, Typhoon and SU-30MKI pilots and shouting them to the moon!

Very insightful. Thanks for sharing... :)
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count_to_10

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Unread post12 Mar 2016, 14:23

mixelflick wrote:Finally! Lockheed Martin should be taking the comments by F16, F22, Typhoon and SU-30MKI pilots and shouting them to the moon!

Very insightful. Thanks for sharing... :)

I hate to break it to you, but I think you missed the disclaimer.
THIS IS ALL A WORK OF FICTION
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
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charlielima223

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Unread post13 Mar 2016, 01:13

count_to_10 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Finally! Lockheed Martin should be taking the comments by F16, F22, Typhoon and SU-30MKI pilots and shouting them to the moon!

Very insightful. Thanks for sharing... :)

I hate to break it to you, but I think you missed the disclaimer.
THIS IS ALL A WORK OF FICTION


hahaha I should have put the disclaimer in bold print, underlined, larger font, and brighter color. I wonder though..

critics and stupid media just take one small bit of information than twists the facts with a large dose of imagination and fiction to spin a story. I wonder if I could do the same and put out this work of fiction in some blog or comment section and let people run around with it?
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Unread post13 Mar 2016, 01:29

Delete this from the fiction: "...since 2016...." and you would be good to go. However... this just adds to the problems of fiction and fact about the F-35... and YMMV.
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Unread post13 Mar 2016, 01:44

Bummer.

And I wondered why I could't find it via google! :)
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zerion

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Unread post04 Aug 2016, 02:27

Nevermind
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boogieman

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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 02:52

So quite some time has passed since this was doing the rounds. Curious to know if anyone is aware of additional context/detail having emerged in the intervening years about the test and how the jet's handling qualities have evolved since? My understanding is that the software load only permitted max 7g maneuvers and the CLAW were inhibiting key inputs at the time(?).
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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 03:49

boogieman wrote:So quite some time has passed since this was doing the rounds. Curious to know if anyone is aware of additional context/detail having emerged in the intervening years about the test and how the jet's handling qualities have evolved since? My understanding is that the software load only permitted max 7g maneuvers and the CLAW were inhibiting key inputs at the time(?).


Bascily it comes down to fuel fraction and physics with the F-35 being full of gas (18500 lbs) and heavy while the F-16 being light (aprox. 4500lbs) of gas and very maneuverable.
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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 04:31

boogieman wrote:So quite some time has passed since this was doing the rounds. Curious to know if anyone is aware of additional context/detail having emerged in the intervening years about the test and how the jet's handling qualities have evolved since? My understanding is that the software load only permitted max 7g maneuvers and the CLAW were inhibiting key inputs at the time(?).

A lot of comment water has gone under the bridge in other F-35 sub forums about this particular topic since 2015. I'm being ironic: it is good that you resurrect a zombie thread so that another endless discussion about dogfighting starts.

44 page thread on topic: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27186 F-35 Flies Against F-16 In Basic Fighter Maneuvers
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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 04:39

Yes, apologies for the necro - the topic came up elsewhere and I couldn't resist the urge to get the input of the F16.net brains trust. I will behave myself and look into the link you posted - much obliged :wink:
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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 04:57

You can amuse yourself until the end of time by just searching for DOGFIGHT in the F-35 forum alone - let alone internet.
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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 06:35

boogieman wrote:Yes, apologies for the necro - the topic came up elsewhere and I couldn't resist the urge to get the input of the F16.net brains trust. I will behave myself and look into the link you posted - much obliged :wink:


@boogieman... The best anology for this doubling on a bicycle with a skinny girl vs a fat girl, which is easier to do?
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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 17:21

boogieman wrote:So quite some time has passed since this was doing the rounds. Curious to know if anyone is aware of additional context/detail having emerged in the intervening years about the test and how the jet's handling qualities have evolved since? My understanding is that the software load only permitted max 7g maneuvers and the CLAW were inhibiting key inputs at the time(?).

It wasn't a dogfight, or any sort of agility comparison. It was ONLY ever a CLAW test. The F-35 in question had a 3.5G limit st the time, and the entire point of the test was to ensure the CLAW worked properly, so that the envelope could be opened up.
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element1loop

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Unread post23 Sep 2020, 10:35

Anyone who's interested in VLO A2A combat isn't going to spend much time considering offensive gun ACM tactics. >99% of A2A fighter kills during F-35's operational life-cycle will be due to a missile (and support systems). IMO, agility, acceleration and better altitude performance, combined with peerless SA, matters much more for 5th-gen missile fights, than for 4th-gen gun fights. It's just not as obvious.

The F-35 pilot is high, stable, fuel-efficient, has not been tracked, has lower stress, clearer thinking, has excess dry engine thrust margin and much lower drag, which means pilot does not need to run the burner unless and until targeted. First-look, first-shot + mission data files = killer advantage.

F-35A can basically fly around like an F-117A (only higher), and still win A2A with a passive EOTS lock. The F-16 must use its burner and it will be lit up like a Christmas tree. It also can not hold yaw to change aspect and disappear from a radar track. F-16 has no MDF to indicate where the pilot can get away with flying the jet, and it will have much higher drag from external stores, meaning it'll turn corners and accelerate like a comparative school bus, compared to the F-35A, in a real missile fight.

Which kinda makes F-16's turn radius performance completely irrelevant to winning in 2020 A2A fighting.

F-35A performance is needed to defeat missiles, and most of that is done via LO, plus radius and aspect management (MDFs again) and direction and altitude change if fired on, plus EW. So basically the F-35 pilot is not going to be thinking an F-16 has any chance to beat it. It's entirely possible to fly the F-35 in a way to deny the F-16 any advantage at all. And why wouldn't you?

An F-16 pilot will not even want to be in the air when facing F-35A. It was bad enough MiG29s running from Legacy teen fighters, but F-16 pilots would make like a bait-ball, and not even know which way to turn to run away.

The whole ACM comparison thing is now irrelevant.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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