Operational Performace Comparison: Viper, Beagle, and Stubby

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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garrya

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Unread post14 May 2019, 08:53

SpudmanWP wrote:There is no reason why a tanker would ever be within the detection range of an enemy AWACS. A fighter that is topping off from the tanker has 600+nmi of combat radius left. It would not be staging that close to enemy AWACS.

J-16 can attack AWACS or enemy fighter with that missile
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post14 May 2019, 09:07

Really, we are going to have this conversion on two threads???
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mixelflick

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Unread post14 May 2019, 13:15

China's long range AAM's are indeed worrisome, and it makes you wonder what the black world is working on to counter it. Still, every ultra long range weapons I've seen has been fired well within it's "brochure" range. Take the Phoenix for example, and its vaunted 100 mile range.

The Iranians seldom fired it more than 50 miles away, with most engagements being much shorter than that (30 miles). The fact is missiles still miss, and as range goes up PK goes down. The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle,so that may explain why the AIM-120D might be sufficient. I'd like to see a ramjet motor on it though, as even assuming equal detection/firing range something that travels at mach 5 is going to get to you a hell of a lot faster than your AMRAAM's traveling at Mach 3.

But what do I know. I'm just a guy on the outside looking in.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post14 May 2019, 17:46

There are two non-black tech demo projects aimed at new, smaller AAMs with anti-missile self-defense capabilities (SACM & MSDM).

There is also development in a fighter-pod that houses a laser with hard kill capabilites. It would not surprise me if they did not either build this capability into large assets (ISR, IFR, AEW, etc) or outright mount the pod on them.

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castlebravo

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Unread post14 May 2019, 19:05

SpudmanWP wrote:There is no reason why a tanker would ever be within the detection range of an enemy AWACS. A fighter that is topping off from the tanker has 600+nmi of combat radius left. It would not be staging that close to enemy AWACS.


Even if their AEW&C gets close enough to track our tankers without getting shot down by Raptors or F-35s, are their fighters really going to take a ~400km shot at a radar return which is indistinguishable from a civilian airliner?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post14 May 2019, 19:56

We are talking about totalitarian regimes who use tanks for "crowd control".
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castlebravo

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Unread post14 May 2019, 20:52

SpudmanWP wrote:We are talking about totalitarian regimes who use tanks for "crowd control".


Maybe, but go take a look at flightaware24.com. They are gonna need a whole lot of Pl-XX missiles if they are want to shoot at every widebody in range.
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Unread post14 May 2019, 21:01

They don't need to. Look for a widebody in a holding pattern at altitude, shoot that one. If it's a tanker, win, if not, all civilian traffic will re-route out of fear leaving only the tanker behind. I'm not condoning this course of action. I'm just saying if they are willing to kill civilians they don't have to kill all of them.
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castlebravo

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Unread post14 May 2019, 21:18

I bet there are all kinds of cute tactics the blue team has come up with. Add a bunch of MALDs, some electronic attack, and tankers flying commercial routes when within detection range, and I bet the PLAAF has a tough time picking out real targets. Meanwhile, F-35s are moving in close enough for an EOTS capture before shooting their AIM-120Ds with 100% confidence in their target's ID. I'm much more afraid of a J-20 sneaking in close than I am of a Chinese Flanker knock-off lobbing missiles 400km on a hope and a prayer.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post14 May 2019, 21:29

Agreed. The J-20 is the threat.
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garrya

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Unread post15 May 2019, 03:01

mixelflick wrote:Still, every ultra long range weapons I've seen has been fired well within it's "brochure" range. Take the Phoenix for example, and its vaunted 100 mile range.

The Iranians seldom fired it more than 50 miles away, with most engagements being much shorter than that (30 miles). The fact is missiles still miss, and as range goes up PK goes down. The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle,so that may explain why the AIM-120D might be sufficient. I'd like to see a ramjet motor on it though, as even assuming equal detection/firing range something that travels at mach 5 is going to get to you a hell of a lot faster than your AMRAAM's traveling at Mach 3.

IMHO, missiles are extremely lethal if the launch distance is less or equal 1/3 of their max range
AIM-120C is very lethal inside 25-30 km radius
AIM-54 is very lethal inside 66 km radius
PL-XX is very lethal inside 134 km radius
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Unread post15 May 2019, 11:34

SpudmanWP wrote:We are talking about totalitarian regimes who use tanks for "crowd control".

Bingo.
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mixelflick

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Unread post15 May 2019, 14:57

garrya wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Still, every ultra long range weapons I've seen has been fired well within it's "brochure" range. Take the Phoenix for example, and its vaunted 100 mile range.

The Iranians seldom fired it more than 50 miles away, with most engagements being much shorter than that (30 miles). The fact is missiles still miss, and as range goes up PK goes down. The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle,so that may explain why the AIM-120D might be sufficient. I'd like to see a ramjet motor on it though, as even assuming equal detection/firing range something that travels at mach 5 is going to get to you a hell of a lot faster than your AMRAAM's traveling at Mach 3.

IMHO, missiles are extremely lethal if the launch distance is less or equal 1/3 of their max range
AIM-120C is very lethal inside 25-30 km radius
AIM-54 is very lethal inside 66 km radius
PL-XX is very lethal inside 134 km radius


Why is it our AAM's are consistently out-ranged by even our older weapons?

AIM-120C much less range than AIM-54
AIM-120D.... much better range (160km?) OK, but still not coming close to foreign analogues
PL-XX.... way, way longer ranged than anything we have (that's known, anyway).

As it stands, our F-15C's and SH's don't have a missile with near the BVR of say, the Iranian Fakour 90 (estimated 220 to 300km range).

Why on earth in 2019 don't we have more capable air to air weapons? Particularly given our 4th gen platforms are increasingly outclassed by the J-10C, J-16, SU-35 etc etc???
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Unread post15 May 2019, 15:07

Why do American tank designers consistently allow themselves to be outgunned by their adversaries? Why are American bombs so small compared to Russian bombs?
How can the Americans just be so dumb?? Yet how do they somehow stay on top???
Absolutely mindboggling!

There's more to winning than simply "going bigger". The winning X factor hides in the successful harmonization of many different metrics, not in excellence in a single metric. Stuff starts making sense only once you consider the other factors at play in maintaining warfighting capability beyond firepower-in-a-vacuum.
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marsavian

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Unread post15 May 2019, 15:17

PL-XX is not an actual delivered product yet and Fakour is not proven to be that long ranged. As to why US missiles have supposedly fallen behind, well stealth internal carriage became the most crucial requirement and even AMRAAM had to be clipped to fit. Yes no Phoenix anymore but AMRAAM fits from F-22 to F-16 and one of the latter took down a Mig-25 with it. Frankly the two way datalink on the AIM-120D is probably enough to keep it still potent for decades to come as the enemy not only has to defeat the missile but the fighter's guiding AESA radar too to avoid being hit. Obviously the AMRAAM is reaching the end of its time so there will be opportunities for new missiles to be developed now.
Last edited by marsavian on 15 May 2019, 17:34, edited 1 time in total.
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