Operational Performace Comparison: Viper, Beagle, and Stubby

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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garrya

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Unread post18 May 2019, 03:44

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Okay, so sometimes the discussions here make me look into things, which causes me to re evaluate things. In this case, I looked into the case of the Meteor shooting at the Foxhound. When I did the 50,000ft shot I realized even the 4 degree loft lent it to 100,000ft+ I did not like that. So, I made a simple (and hopefully robust) "max alt limit" for the Meteor. Now it can only loft to 85,000ft, an altitude at which the minimum throttle setting results in acceleration to Mach 4.5. "Well, that sure made it hit the MiG-31 harder. Gee, I wonder how far out I can take this shot". Sitting at 280nm launch range and hitting the target at 4.5M with 72%Pk (max for the Meteor, having two motor functions impacted reliability to me).

I get that Meteor range is impressive but ... holy crap ...what the actual f.....
I thought Mig-31 is a good counter against Euro-canard, but now after seeing your result, Mig-31 come from unbeatable monster to worthless trash.
Does your simulation take into account evading maneuver of Mig-31 pilot? AFAIK, against BVR missiles, pilots often zig zag left-right to forced the missile to waste its fuel. Consider a fast target such as Foxhound, a few degrees course chance can force Meteor to make a significant adjustment.

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote: I am seeing that kinematically it would have the oomf to still be doing Mach 2.5+ from a 399nm head on launch, having flown 233nm with a meager 20%Pk. This is the result of motor burnout occurring after 170nm of flight while at 85,000ft and 4.5M

IIUC, missiles engagement evelope is more massive when you engage a fast, high altitude aircraft?
Let say, F-35 flying at 30,000 ft, Mach 1.2 then it can engage Mig-31 before it can engage a sea skimming P-700?


sprstdlyscottsmn wrote: The running Foxhound? Still limited to a 63nm launch range as for the first 80nm of the flight the closure would be less than 1.0M.

116 km NEZ against Mach 2.5 target
European sure know how to make good missile
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garrya

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Unread post18 May 2019, 03:45

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:So I set up a few launches with both shooter and target flying at 36,000ft at 1.2M (a Tu-22 maybe)

First a few notes on the flight paths. The AMRAAM is using a single 8s pulse at constant thrust and a 20 degree loft. The Meteor uses a 2s boost followed by a nominal 30s sustaining ram-rocket with a 4 degree loft. Due to being constrained to using atmospheric oxygen I could not give it a higher loft as it would fly too high due to the long motor burn time. The throttleable motor has a maximum and minimum thrust and tries to keep the Meteor at both Mach 3 and a speed sufficient to have maximum q for turning. Additionally, if the predicted time to impact is less than the potential remaining time for maximum thrust then the motor will open completely.

The first setup was a 100nm launch for both the AIM-120D (Blue) and Meteor (Red). In this shot, the high loft of the AIM-120D gives it a higher average speed but the Meteor hits with a higher speed. Interestingly, with this setup the Meteor runs out of fuel at the moment of impact.

When I realized that the Meteor had just run out of fuel I setup a 140nm launch for the air breathing missile.

Capture5.PNG

Would you mind uploading your simulator?, I love to have a try.
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knowan

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Unread post18 May 2019, 08:12

marauder2048 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:No. SARH never knows the range to target so it always points directly at the target. AFAIK a SARH missile can't loft. IR either. Not without datalink anyway.


Some versions of AIM-7 used FMCW so they did in fact have range-to-target data.


I'm pretty sure the AIM-7M does have a lofted trajectory option, but I don't know about earlier variants.
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eloise

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Unread post18 May 2019, 10:27

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Perhapse, but I would rather get moving on the rest of the actual analysis

I think it add information for your analysis because Eurofighter, F-35 and Rafale are equipped with Meteor, it will be interesting to see how well they perform in interception/CAP with Meteor compared to F-15 and F-22 with AIM-120.


sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The F-16 is going to be Radar limited. As of right now I don't know if the radar display even goes to 150nm. Go back a few pages and you will see my analysis on using the C-5 motor and how big of a difference loft makes. The C-7 is supposed to have "significant" range increase from the C-5 and the D has a 50% range improvement over.

APG-80 maximum range is 410 km from what i remember
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madrat

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Unread post18 May 2019, 13:23

You still have to make mark one eyeball contact with your target...
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sferrin

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Unread post18 May 2019, 13:36

madrat wrote:You still have to make mark one eyeball contact with your target...


So no shots taken at night? No BVR? Seems like Meteor, AIM-120, and AIM-9X are a colossal waste of money then.
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garrya

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Unread post18 May 2019, 14:43

declassified chart from USSR regarding the capabilities of R-27ER, AIM-120A/B, AIM-7:
A9AD5C40-D858-4422-9C5D-460963B1555B.jpeg

358159E0-EA8B-4AC4-9FA3-D7322B7094EC.jpeg

Reconstructed for easier view
ED90AC15-8B68-4B76-B0DB-9E3992DD3E19.gif

C3541249-665A-4704-ACA4-61F8BE0883B2.jpeg
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madrat

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Unread post18 May 2019, 17:10

sferrin wrote:
madrat wrote:You still have to make mark one eyeball contact with your target...


So no shots taken at night? No BVR? Seems like Meteor, AIM-120, and AIM-9X are a colossal waste of money then.


You're limited by identification of your target through your optics.
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sferrin

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Unread post18 May 2019, 18:53

madrat wrote:
sferrin wrote:
madrat wrote:You still have to make mark one eyeball contact with your target...


So no shots taken at night? No BVR? Seems like Meteor, AIM-120, and AIM-9X are a colossal waste of money then.


You're limited by identification of your target through your optics.


There's also IFF, NCTR, etc., etc. etc.
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garrya

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Unread post19 May 2019, 02:57

madrat wrote:You're limited by identification of your target through your optics.

17309794_1511645305547026_5747320590542982898_n.jpg


That base is understood to have been Batajnica, home of the Yugoslav Air Force's only MiG-29 unit, the 127th Fighter Aviation Squadron 'Knights'. Col Abma said: "The four F-16AMs headed out toward the threat, working to detect the MiGs on their own radars. Subsequently, one of the MiGs was picked up by all four F-16s. When within range, our flight leader fired one AMRAAM against the MiG. It was an instant hit, after a flight of 30 seconds."

The AMRAAM, credited with a speed of over 4,000km/h,would be capable of covering a distance of more than 33km in 30s econds. According to RNLAF personnel at Amendola, the head-on missile intercept took place 18km from the lead F-16.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article607.html
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 May 2019, 12:43

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:No. SARH never knows the range to target so it always points directly at the target. AFAIK a SARH missile can't loft. IR either. Not without datalink anyway.


Well, if I'm not mistaken the AIM-7MH does have a loft mode so at least this SARH missile/variant can indeed loft.
However I believe that you're correct regarding the vast majority of other SARH missiles and variants.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post19 May 2019, 16:08

knowan wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:No. SARH never knows the range to target so it always points directly at the target. AFAIK a SARH missile can't loft. IR either. Not without datalink anyway.


Some versions of AIM-7 used FMCW so they did in fact have range-to-target data.


I'm pretty sure the AIM-7M does have a lofted trajectory option, but I don't know about earlier variants.

What is FMCW?
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post19 May 2019, 16:17

garrya wrote:Does your simulation take into account evading maneuver of Mig-31 pilot? AFAIK, against BVR missiles, pilots often zig zag left-right to forced the missile to waste its fuel. Consider a fast target such as Foxhound, a few degrees course chance can force Meteor to make a significant adjustment.


IIUC, missiles engagement evelope is more massive when you engage a fast, high altitude aircraft?
Let say, F-35 flying at 30,000 ft, Mach 1.2 then it can engage Mig-31 before it can engage a sea skimming P-700?

It CAN simulate maneuvers, but I need a model of the plane so that I can work out how long it takes to turn and how much speed it loses in doing so. I have done BVR joust analysis before with evasive maneuvering and it was very time intensive. On the order of ten hours of work to go through the different aspects of simulation and document everything.

And yes, engaging a high and fast target head on means your missile stays in thin air and the target helps cover a lot of ground.
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Unread post19 May 2019, 16:52

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:What is FMCW?


Frequency Modulated CW ?
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Unread post19 May 2019, 17:02

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:What is FMCW?

Frequency-Modulated Continuous Wave
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