F-35 vs. Mig-29

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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hythelday

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 10:34

klearhos wrote:F-35 vs MiG-29

1) The F-35 detects the MiG-29
2) The F-35 pilot selects -120s, but the MiG is down to the weeds doing figure 8s at 320 knots, so the F-35 is way out of range.
3) The F-35 makes an approach on the MiG
4) BOOOOOOM, the F-35 explodes in a fireball. The F-35 pilot goes WTF?

The F-35 pilot ejects and parachutes down right next to the TOR M2 battery.


True, those ROFAR 3D radars are no joke!!!1!1
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klearhos

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 10:45

hythelday wrote: True, those ROFAR 3D radars are no joke!!!1!1


Don't even know what that is.
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garrya

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 11:04

klearhos wrote:F-35 vs MiG-29

1) The F-35 detects the MiG-29
2) The F-35 pilot selects -120s, but the MiG is down to the weeds doing figure 8s at 320 knots, so the F-35 is way out of range.
3) The F-35 makes an approach on the MiG
4) BOOOOOOM, the F-35 explodes in a fireball. The F-35 pilot goes WTF?

The F-35 pilot ejects and parachutes down right next to the TOR M2 battery.

F-35 should be able to detect Tor M2 battery on RWR or radar screen through SAR, if not, DAS will detect missile launch trails before it too late


klearhos wrote:Don't even know what that is.

Read this thread, focus on wewuzkangz post
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=52962&start=15
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juretrn

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 11:14

klearhos wrote:
Don't even know what that is.

TL;DR version: Russian snake oil (+/-)
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lbk000

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 11:14

klearhos wrote:F-35 vs MiG-29

1) The F-35 detects the MiG-29
2) The F-35 pilot selects -120s, but the MiG is down to the weeds doing figure 8s at 320 knots, so the F-35 is way out of range.
3) The F-35 makes an approach on the MiG
4) BOOOOOOM, the F-35 explodes in a fireball. The F-35 pilot goes WTF?

The F-35 pilot ejects and parachutes down right next to the TOR M2 battery.

f-35 ignores mig-29 and knocks out tor because that is the actual mission task.
meanwhile mig-29 keeps doing figure 8s on the deck because he doesn't know where the f-35 is.

everyone moves on.
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klearhos

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 11:24

Like Sean Connery said in the "hunt of red october" this is tactics sunshines. Tactics that brought down the F117 in Serbia, updated to account for the new threat.

SAMs will wait 4 u to fly past, so you won't pick them up on your (forward looking) radar.

There is gonna be no RWR warning. Same with the F-16 that was shot down in Bosnia.

What the DAS will see through the clouds or while being blinded by the lasers that are co-axial to the tracking sensors of 4 TELARs remains to be seen in actual practice. And in any case the pilot doesn't need DAS to spot a missile launch at night. Problem is how he divides his attention.
Last edited by klearhos on 09 Aug 2017, 14:02, edited 3 times in total.
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hythelday

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 11:27

lbk000 wrote:
klearhos wrote:F-35 vs MiG-29

1) The F-35 detects the MiG-29
2) The F-35 pilot selects -120s, but the MiG is down to the weeds doing figure 8s at 320 knots, so the F-35 is way out of range.
3) The F-35 makes an approach on the MiG
4) BOOOOOOM, the F-35 explodes in a fireball. The F-35 pilot goes WTF?

The F-35 pilot ejects and parachutes down right next to the TOR M2 battery.

f-35 ignores mig-29 and knocks out tor because that is the actual mission task.
meanwhile mig-29 keeps doing figure 8s on the deck because he doesn't know where the f-35 is.

everyone moves on.


More importantly: since when does doing "figure 8" on the deck reduces range of AAM? Always though shooting down was easier than shooting up? Why is MiG-29 doing figure 8 in the first place, does it know it is bait? Obviously stealth is kapitalist trick that doesn't work on bestest Russian radars, and SAR can be easily tricked by maskirovka, but why doesn't F-35's EW systems don't pick up Gauntlent' emissions? Why is F-35 in range at all?
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juretrn

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 11:43

klearhos wrote:Like Sean Connery said in the "hunt of red october" this is tactics sunshines. Tactics that brought down the F117 in Serbia, updated to account for the new threat.

SAMs will wait 4 u to fly past, so you won't pick them up on your (forward looking) radar.

There is gonna be no RWR warning. Same with the F-16 that was shot down in Bosnia.

What the DAS will see while being blinded by the lasers that are co-axial to the tracking sensors of 4 TELARs remains to be seen in actual practice.


And F-35s are flown by apes that haven't even heard the word "tactics" before.
Are those SAMs also going to wait when they detect something that looks like an F-16 on their scopes (but may or may not be a MALD)?
Are they going to wait shooting at the inevitable cruise missiles just to get a chance at downing F-35s (assuming they can ever see them)?
Those laser "jammers" are also going to give away the position of the launcher; do you really want to do that?
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garrya

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 11:54

klearhos wrote:SAMs will wait 4 u to fly past, so you won't pick them up on your (forward looking) radar.

SAM cannot wait for aircraft to fly past. They can hope that they don't get picked up on SAR but whether they are active or not doesn't really affect the performance of forward looking radar on aircraft

klearhos wrote: There is gonna be no RWR warning. Same with the F-16 that was shot down in Bosnia.What the DAS will see through the clouds or

If the area are full of clouds then SAM will have to rely on radar to get a radar lock, in that case there will be RWR warnings

klearhos wrote: while being blinded by the lasers that are co-axial to the tracking sensors of 4 TELARs remains to be seen in actual practice.

There are several DAS sensors and also EOTS, the chance that all of them are blinded simultaneously by laser are near impossible and require very high tracking accuracy (likely at 1-2 km only)
Image

Laser are visible to SWIR sensor also
Image
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lbk000

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 12:16

hythelday wrote:More importantly: since when does doing "figure 8" on the deck reduces range of AAM? Always though shooting down was easier than shooting up?

Not quite, most of the air in the atmosphere is down at the bottom and shooting the deck tends to be a bit like shooting bullets into the water. Not nearly as dramatic of course but it nevertheless degrades range. Secondly your target doesn't really ever fly towards you, that itself will degrade your paper range.

He's not entirely wrong, but the scenario and assumptions are pretty dumb. Nobody with a brain is going to see a target loitering around and not know it's bait.
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hythelday

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 12:22

lbk000 wrote:
hythelday wrote:More importantly: since when does doing "figure 8" on the deck reduces range of AAM? Always though shooting down was easier than shooting up?

Not quite, most of the air in the atmosphere is down at the bottom and shooting the deck tends to be a bit like shooting bullets into the water. Not nearly as dramatic of course but it nevertheless degrades range. Secondly your target doesn't really ever fly towards you, that itself will degrade your paper range.



Hmm, makes sense because of denser atmosphere. Not sure enough to turn AIM-120 into WVR missle though.
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botsing

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 12:26

klearhos wrote:Tactics that brought down the F117 in Serbia, updated to account for the new threat.

Sample size of n=1, so useless. Better base your tactics on the many, many more occasions where the stealth aircraft was not shot down and where it completed it's mission.

You also know that this single F-117 was shot down due to several factors, where the tactic used was only possible due to a predictable flight path.
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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 12:34

hythelday wrote:Hmm, makes sense because of denser atmosphere. Not sure enough to turn AIM-120 into WVR missle though.

Certainly not, although I'm not sure where you produced that conclusion from, but his assumption is that it'll make the F-35 "unwittingly" approach closer -- over the Tor that the F-35s would have been tasked to look for. If some nerd is doing donuts behind his SAM, why the blazes would you not take your sweet time and hunt the SAM instead? He has no idea where you are so he's just burning up avgas "baiting" you. His loss.

I like how the F-35 demonstrating A2A-worthy maneuverability at PAS suddenly made people forget it's foremost an A2G platform designed from the get-go to hunt SAM units.

The real joke here is the notion that the Mig-29 even has the gas to loiter.
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botsing

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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 13:06

klearhos wrote:F-35 vs MiG-29

1) The F-35 detects the MiG-29
2) The F-35 pilot selects -120s, but the MiG is down to the weeds doing figure 8s at 320 knots, so the F-35 is way out of range.
3) The F-35 makes an approach on the MiG
4) BOOOOOOM, the F-35 explodes in a fireball. The F-35 pilot goes WTF?

The F-35 pilot ejects and parachutes down right next to the TOR M2 battery.

You got this totally wrong, let me show you a better version:

1) A (not the) F-35 detects the MiG-29, the MiG-29 does not know where the F-35's exactly are or how many there are.
2) Another F-35 selects AIM-120 and releases it towards the MiG-29.
3) The AIM-120 is guided passively by yet another F-35 towards the MiG-29.
4) Several seconds before the AIM-120 reaches the MiG-29, it goes active, this is the MiG-29's first warning it's targeted.
5) In the mere seconds left now, the MiG-29 tries to escape and is almost able to make a 90 degree turn before it explodes.
6) The TOR M2 in the meantime was discovered and targeted by yet another F-35 that was not seen and explodes in sympathy with the MiG-29.
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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 13:12

And why on earth would either the F-35 or MiG-29 be flying alone? Once you get into multiples the entire logical argument negates the tactic. Even the best IFF cannot target intermixed targets with 100% certainty. MiG-29 would certainly become dead meat from both Tor and F-35 alike. Not the most talented use of limited assets.
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