F-35 vs. Mig-29

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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ricnunes

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Unread post10 Aug 2017, 21:49

lbk000 wrote:wtf um I don't think that's how it works.

Do want to point out AMRAAMs start using their own terminal seekers at ~10nm so in this proposed scenario they wouldn't need any sort of assistance from the launch platform as they'd basically be going pitbull off the rail.


Well, like SpudmanWP and wrightwing explained (and likely better than I would), that's exactly "how it works".

But to complement what SpudmanWP and wrightwing have said, the AMRAAM when flying "mid-course" (which is most of its flight) basically receives a waypoint (which will be updated from time to time if the launching platform manages to keep tracking the target), waypoint of which will eventually put the AMRAAM missile close to the target so it can turn on its onboard radar and autonomously follow the target.
Basically any sensor that can generate a waypoint (i.e. can pinpoint the target location with a good precision) can be used to "guide" an AMRAAM (with "guide" I mean generate a waypoint which the AMRAAM can use to fly towards).

Finally and also like SpudmanWP have said, the F-35 generates waypoints using Sensor Fusion (which several sensors such as Radar, EOTS/IRST, DAS, ESM or other platforms can contribute to) so it's not an each sensor generates its own waypoint like happens with the 4/4.5th gen fighter aircraft.
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Unread post11 Aug 2017, 06:39

viper4ever wrote:Even if 35km was the right number, it is like 20nm, a tactically significant number :wink:

F-35 can detect Su-35 from 200-300 km, the pilot has plenty of time to climb and accelerate, he can then launch AIM-120D, Meteor from 70-100 km away.
Su-35 can detect F-35 from 35 km in good weather.If not busy evade AIM-120D, Meteor, he can close in and launch his own missiles from 20 km.

Mig-29/Mig-35 will have it worse, can't detect or attack F-35 from distance beyond 15 km
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XanderCrews

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Unread post11 Aug 2017, 17:25

eloise wrote:
viper4ever wrote:Even if 35km was the right number, it is like 20nm, a tactically significant number :wink:

F-35 can detect Su-35 from 200-300 km,


I would say that is "tactically significant" lol

I always love the double standard of a Flanker detecting an F-35 at dozen miles being horrific for the F-35, yet an F-35 detecting a Flanker at hundreds of miles is no big deal

Lol
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playloud

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Unread post11 Aug 2017, 18:39

eloise wrote:
viper4ever wrote:Even if 35km was the right number, it is like 20nm, a tactically significant number :wink:

F-35 can detect Su-35 from 200-300 km, the pilot has plenty of time to climb and accelerate, he can then launch AIM-120D, Meteor from 70-100 km away.
Su-35 can detect F-35 from 35 km in good weather.If not busy evade AIM-120D, Meteor, he can close in and launch his own missiles from 20 km.

Mig-29/Mig-35 will have it worse, can't detect or attack F-35 from distance beyond 15 km

IIRC, the F-35 will not get the AIM-120D until a later block. At the moment, it can only use the AIM-120C (C7?)
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Unread post11 Aug 2017, 18:59

Correct, the current Block plan calls for AIM-120D in Block 4 (not sure which sub-block).
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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ricnunes

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Unread post11 Aug 2017, 19:50

playloud wrote:
eloise wrote:
viper4ever wrote:Even if 35km was the right number, it is like 20nm, a tactically significant number :wink:

F-35 can detect Su-35 from 200-300 km, the pilot has plenty of time to climb and accelerate, he can then launch AIM-120D, Meteor from 70-100 km away.
Su-35 can detect F-35 from 35 km in good weather.If not busy evade AIM-120D, Meteor, he can close in and launch his own missiles from 20 km.

Mig-29/Mig-35 will have it worse, can't detect or attack F-35 from distance beyond 15 km

IIRC, the F-35 will not get the AIM-120D until a later block. At the moment, it can only use the AIM-120C (C7?)


And guess what? At the moment the Mig-29 doesn't carry the OLS-UE (which the "Mig-29 proponents" claims to be a "game changer") as well.
So if someone wants to devise a Mig-29 vs F-35 scenario where the Mig-29 can use the OLS-UE than "sure as hell" that we can use the AIM-120D in the F-35 for that same scenario since both equipment (OLS-UE and AIM-120D) will be fitted in their respective aircraft somewhere in the future :wink:

Besides, if we put AIM-120C-7s in the F-35 (which the F-35 currently carries) there wouldn't be absolutely any significant change in the outcome of that same Mig-29 vs F-35 scenario.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the difference in range between the AIM-120C-7s and the AIM-120D is "relatively marginal", isn't it?
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Unread post11 Aug 2017, 23:13

The GPS-enhamced INS on the D model enables a lofted profile to enable target engagement at much longer distances.
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Unread post11 Aug 2017, 23:37

popcorn wrote:The GPS-enhamced INS on the D model enables a lofted profile to enable target engagement at much longer distances.


But again, this compared to the AIM-120C-7?
I'm aware that this is a hard question to answer but what is the gain in range from the AIM-120C-7 to the AIM-120D?

Also, doesn't the AIM-120C (don't know from which variant) also has the ability to fly in lofted profiles?
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Unread post12 Aug 2017, 00:25

Google C7 and D ranges. Granted these are not official.
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Unread post12 Aug 2017, 01:20

popcorn wrote:Google C7 and D ranges. Granted these are not official.


That's exactly what I did before posting my previous post. All I could find about the subject was a reference in Wikipedia mentioning that the range of more than 105 Km for the AIM-120C-5 (which has less range than the C-7) and a range of more than 160km for the AIM-120D (which has more range than the C-7).
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Unread post12 Aug 2017, 01:51

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27998&p=308990
A lot of stuff discussed here.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post13 Aug 2017, 19:33

popcorn wrote:http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27998&p=308990
A lot of stuff discussed here.


Thanks for the heads up.
By reading some of the posts in the thread that you shared, it confirms something that I was already aware about: The motor of the AIM-120C-7 is the same as the one in the AIM-120D hence my statement that the AIM-120C-7 range/gain over the C-7 shouldn't be "that big".
Don't get me wrong, there are certainly range improvement on the -D over the C-7 (due to dual-link and GPS) but I don't think that we're talking about something as close as a 50% improvement in range but I could be wrong thou... :wink:
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Unread post14 Aug 2017, 01:26

ricnunes wrote: Don't get me wrong, there are certainly range improvement on the -D over the C-7 (due to dual-link and GPS) but I don't think that we're talking about something as close as a 50% improvement in range but I could be wrong thou... :wink:


If Meteor was really better I think someone in the USN or USAF would talk to the media about the US acquiring a similar capability. The lack of public interest by anyone in the USN or USAF in acquiring the Meteor must provide some evidence that the missile is not seen as a big improvement over AMRAAM. This could be for any number of reasons in addition to AMRAAM having a competitive range; one example is electronic warfare issues with Meteor.
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Unread post14 Aug 2017, 02:02

ricnunes wrote:
popcorn wrote:http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27998&p=308990
A lot of stuff discussed here.


Thanks for the heads up.
By reading some of the posts in the thread that you shared, it confirms something that I was already aware about: The motor of the AIM-120C-7 is the same as the one in the AIM-120D hence my statement that the AIM-120C-7 range/gain over the C-7 shouldn't be "that big".
Don't get me wrong, there are certainly range improvement on the -D over the C-7 (due to dual-link and GPS) but I don't think that we're talking about something as close as a 50% improvement in range but I could be wrong thou... :wink:


Consider doing a simple experiment. Throw a baseball on a flat trajectory and measure how far it goes before hitting the ground. Next, throw the same baseball at a 45-deg angle and measure the impact distance. Compare. :devil:
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post14 Aug 2017, 02:26

But lofting isn't something new, it's been a standard feature on AMRAAMS since the A, iirc.
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