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Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2019, 01:45
by crosshairs
loke wrote:Why would they use a false reason to drop the PAK FA? When there are so many reasons to do so?

Also, we all know that "proper" stealth is actually quite hard to engineer. The theory is simple but the engineering is not.

Its the manufacturing that befuddles the Russians. Stealth can be defeated by poor panel gaps and fasteners. Its easy to design a stealthy shape in NX whatever is the in vogue CAD program. The US did it back in the 70s with primitive computers and primitive manufacturing technology compared to today. Russians have always been sloppy which works out well with durable rifles and building durable planes to operate from dirt runways, but is bad for stealth.

Fortunately for the USA, all of our tooling for manufacturing everything from cars and trucks to coffee pots is all built in China and Chinese now have more knowledge than Americans when it comes to building precision tools. So China is now lightyears ahead of Russia and now on par with US defense manufacturers. Yeah, it really paid off when Kissinger and Nixon opened up China. Thank you again Washington DC :bang: We basically gave them the keys to the kingdom.

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 19:35
by marsavian
Putin orders 76 Su-57 up to 2028

SOCHI, May 15./Tass. Until 2028, 76 Su-57 aircraft will be purchased, a comprehensive contract will be concluded soon. This was announced by Russian President Vladimir Putin, opening the next meeting on defense issues.

“The weapons program until 2028 planned to buy 16 such aircraft,” Putin recalled. According to him, after analyzing the situation, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu reported to him that manufacturers reduced the cost of both aircraft and weapons by 20%, as a result of which it became possible to purchase more combat vehicles of this class. “We agreed that we would purchase over the same period of time without increasing the cost of 76 such aircraft,” Putin said.

The head of state stressed that the Russian defense industry had not done anything like this in the last forty years on such a scale and on a new platform. He expressed the hope that the adjusted plans will be executed. "In the near future, a contract will be signed for an integrated supply of 76 such fighters, equipped with modern means of destruction and provided with the necessary ground infrastructure," said the head of state.

The President recalled that the industry is focusing on the development of modern aircraft, which determine the combat potential of the Russian military aviation for the next decade. "At the final stage of testing are multi-role fighters Su-35S and Su-57," the Russian leader said, noting that their combat characteristics are the best in the world. He said that by 2028 it was necessary to completely re-equip the three aviation regiments of the VCS with promising fifth-generation aviation complexes.

Putin also noted that in February 2018, the updated Tu-160M ​​bomber made its first flight. Putin also called for increasing the combat capabilities of existing military aircraft and helicopters with the help of existing capabilities and effective modernization. According to him, the power of the MiG-31 interceptor fighter significantly increased, on the basis of which the advanced Dagger aviation complex, equipped with a hypersonic ballistic missile, was created.

According to the president, it is also necessary to consistently update the strategic missile carriers Tu-95, Tu-160, and long-range Tu-22M bombers. "All of them should be able to carry the latest cruise missiles, as well as other promising means of destruction," Putin concluded ...

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 19:55
by fbw
Trying to get clarity from the last good Russian poster on key pub what the Tass article is saying. The current GPV runs until 2027. The article mentions 16 aircraft orders for the 2028 plan.

So, it’s unclear to me if the serial orders for 76 Su-57 will be inked for the next state armaments plan starting in 2028, if orders for 76 aircraft up until 2028.

Edit- Ok, I guess the state armaments plan numbers were increased from the original 16 to 76 Su-57 over this 10 year period “due to the infinite wisdom of Putin and Shoigu lowered the prices”- sarcasm from TR1.

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 08:44
by knowan
I'll believe it when it happens.

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 13:12
by mixelflick
knowan wrote:I'll believe it when it happens.

Same here...

There have been so many false starts with this program. I remember when it was rolled out 10 years ago... "will be equipping front line units by 2013". Then 2014, 2015. By 2016 they had lost whatever remaining credibility they had, and then of course we got the "best fighter in the world by far, thus we're not putting it into mass production". That was awesome. :)

So as far as I know, they have 6 flying examples. The new engine is in testing, but not much word beyond that. It's an air-to-everything machine carrying hypersonic AAM's, ASM's, lasers, the Hunter drone and can fly into/out of space and time. It's combat tested too (Syria, for 2 days) and ready for export. With no infrastructure beyond its testing facilities, no integration into Russian exercises, no 2nd stage engine, marginal stealth and no more Indian funding, it's finally hitting on all cylinders. Truly, a 6th ++ generation masterpiece.

Those Russians really know how to do it... :mrgreen:

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 13:28
by madrat
I don't know about all that. But it sure is pretty.

Unfortunately the best dressed never impress in combat.

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 15:24
by marsavian
The contract for 76 Su-57 fighters worth up to 170 billion rubles can be signed on MAKS-2019 ... 25&lang=RU

Moscow. The 16th of May. INTERFAX - A contract for the purchase of 76 fifth-generation fighters of the Su-57 is worth about 170 billion virtually any can be signed at the MAKS-2019 air show in August, the Kommersant newspaper reported on Thursday, citing sources.
"The contract is estimated at up to 170 billion virtually any, which makes it the largest in aviation history and guarantees full utilization of the capacity of the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant (KnAAZ - Sukhoi branch, included in OAK-IF) for at least a decade" - says the material.

“The cost of The contract, estimated at 160-170 billion virtually any, is reduced not only because of decisions to change the internal layout of the Su-57 and the unification of technical solutions, but also because production has become mass-produced,” Kommersant writes. referring to the top manager of one of the defense industry enterprises.

According to the source of the publication, theoretically, the KnAAZ production line allows to produce at least seven to eight Su-57 fighters annually. A senior government official told Kommersant that the contract for the supply of 76 cars could be signed at the MAKS-2019 aerospace show, which will be held in Zhukovsky near Moscow from August 27 to September 1.
In addition, the newspaper reported on the cost of supplying new combat helicopters - according to a source in the aviation industry, the purchase of hundreds of Mi-28NM "Night Hunter" and 114 "Alligators" Ka-52 will cost virtually any 180-190 billion.

On the eve of a meeting on military topics in Sochi, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced plans to conclude a contract for the supply of 76 Su-57 fighter jets to 2028 and thereby re-equip three aviation regiments of the Russian Federation Air Force with a promising fifth-generation aviation complexes. According to the president, the state armaments program (GPV) until 2027 and planned to buy 16 Su-57 fighter jets, however, thanks to an agreement with the industry, which reduced the cost of aircraft and armaments by 20%, it was decided “to buy during the same period of time 76 such aircraft. "

In early May, the Interfax source announced that a new contract for serial delivery of the fifth-generation fighter jets Su-57 for the Russian Federation Air Force is planned to be signed this year, and the first serial Su-57 will go to the troops by December.

Su-57 (Advanced Aviation Complex of Frontal Aviation (PAK FA) T-50) is a fifth-generation Russian multi-role fighter developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau. It is designed to destroy all types of air targets in long-range and close combat, defeat enemy ground and surface targets, overcoming the enemy's air defense systems, monitoring the airspace at a large distance from the basing site, and destroying the control system for enemy aviation operations. The first flight of the PAK FA took place on January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.
During the forum "Army-2018", a contract was signed for the supply of the first two Su-57 aircrafts to the Russian Defense Ministry, which should go to the troops in 2019 and 2020.

As reported, the fighter Su-57 installation batch will be produced in serial form, but with the engines of the previous generation. The engine of the "second stage" (product 30), which will provide the Su-57 supersonic cruising speed, began flight tests in December 2017. It is expected that its testing program will be completed in five years, and from 2023 serial deliveries of aircraft with new engines will begin.

Mi-28NM - a new modification of the combat Mi-28N "Night Hunter". Work on the helicopter began in 2009. It was reported that it will be equipped with a fundamentally new locator, which will allow to conduct a circular review, and will also have a new high-precision weapon, a modern control system and a "glass cabin".

That's about a $35m unit price to the Russians.

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 15:36
by optimist
marsavian wrote:
That's about a $35m unit price to the Russians.

Have we factored in the LER on that number?

PS. Did you miss my other post about APA?

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 19:05
by loke
madrat wrote:I don't know about all that. But it sure is pretty.

Unfortunately the best dressed never impress in combat.

LOL that's why Loke will stay away from combat ;)

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 16:08
by mixelflick
“The cost of The contract, estimated at 160-170 billion virtually any, is reduced not only because of decisions to change the internal layout of the Su-57 and the unification of technical solutions, but also because production has become mass-produced,”


So they're saying the per unit cost has been lowered by 20% because "of decisions to change internal layout" but also "because production has become mass produced". Does this mean..

1.) They're going back to the drawing board, changing the internal layout (whatever that entails) and;
2.) Mass production begins (which last we heard it wasn't, and best case 76 airframes - which isn't exactly "mass production".

I just don't get it. How often in the history of aircraft acquisition does your per unit cost DROP 20% before you even build production examples? Usually, economies of scale kick in after hundreds and hundreds of airframes start rolling off production lines (aka the F-35).

Is this just a bad article translation, or more Russian BS?

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 16:20
by fbw
Have to view this through the lens of the cult of Putin media “Putinatorializing”. He flew out to Akhtubinsk and forced them to lower prices by 20% with his Judo skills....Or after ongoing contract negotiations, MoD and manufacturer agreed on a contract value & production numbers.

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 19:28
by viper12
fbw wrote:He flew out to Akhtubinsk

How dare you propagate lies about Putin ? We all know he rode a bear bare-chested straight from Moscow to [s]Stalin[/s]Putingrad, from where he swam using the butterfly stroke in the Volga river to Akhtubinsk. And of course he found some archeological artifacts in the river during his swim.

Out of the mouths of [s]babes[/s] Russia come the truths obviously.

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 06:57
by spazsinbad
Putin Calls for Additional Su-57s and Mi-28NMs
16 May 2019 Vladimir Karnozov

"...the next day he [Putin] flew to Sochi to chair a meeting with the top military officials and defense industry leaders, during which decisions were taken to boost the planned order for the Su-57 to 76 aircraft, as well as to procure 100 Mi-28MN attack helicopters by 2028.

Speaking at the event, Putin said that in the 2013-2018 time frame the national armed forces had taken delivery of more than 1,000 new and modernized aircraft. Today, Russia’s Air and Space Force (VKS) possesses more than 3,000 aircraft in service with the Long-Range, Tactical and Army Aviation commands, of which over 60 percent are considered modern. “Our task is to continue the further development of combat aviation in an active manner, and to materialize all earlier plans on the deliveries of weapons and equipment to the armed forces, and on pilot training,” he stressed.

Commenting on multi-role fighters, Putin noted that the Su-35S and Su-57 are “now at the final phase of state acceptance trials”—meaning that their flight and weapons testing are not completed. However, these two types “feature unique performance and are considered the best in the world,” he observed.

An early edition of the State Weapons Program 2018-2027 called for 16 Su-57s. Following recent discussion on the matter, the Russian president voiced the need to increase the number to equip three air regiments. “As a result of the work done and as a result of our arrangements with the industry…we now have an opportunity to buy considerably more combat machines of that class and of that new generation,” Putin explained. In his words, the industry has managed to cut costs of deliverable aircraft and weapons, making it possible for a numerical increase within the budget allocated to the defense ministry. “And it is not all about numbers. The fact is that [the Su-57] makes use of a brand-new platform; we have not done anything like it for the last 40 years.” Apparently, he was making reference to the fact that the Su-30, Su-34 and Su-35S represent an evolutionary development path from the original Su-27.

So far, 10 Su-57 prototypes have been flown, comprising an initial production batch. Upon testing, some of them have been rebuilt to a production standard for still-pending delivery to the VKS. At ARMY’2018 the defense ministry awarded UAC a contract for two additional aircraft due for delivery in 2019-2020. It is likely that these airframes will not go to line units but be placed with various establishments specializing in weapons testing and crew training.

In a televised moment at GLITs, Putin asked Su-57 crews whether they like the aircraft, to which question one pilots responded; “The aircraft is still undergoing flight tests. Not everything has been tested,” while the other characterized the aircraft as, “a very good leap into the future”. “With your input, we shall make it the world’s best,” the president reacted. Head of the center General Radik Bariev said, “Personally, I have performed over 100 flights [in the Su-57] and want to fly more.”

A likely explanation to the somewhat ambiguous reaction came out in Putin’s address in Sochi, when he noted that, “the Syrian war experience has highlighted a number of shortcomings in our aircraft and helicopters deployed to the war theater, as well as their [air-launched] munitions. These would have been impossible to discover during testing at firing ranges.”"

Source: ... d-mi-28nms

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 13:57
by mixelflick
OK, so I'll take a stab at the rest of the story.

SU-57 isn't ready yet, but Putin wants it to be so he pays a personal visit and says order more. Sukhoi knows there's a lot left to be done, but builds them anyway. Several pilots die/aircraft are lost given not everything is ready yet and many haven't received the training necessary.

I hope that isn't the case, but when your pilots tell you there's still work to be done... why not trust the pilots? The rubles don't make sense, but that never stopped them before. I'll tell you what I think: This is all to keep interest up among foreign countries to buy it. They'll be charged full price of course, and the Russians will put that back into their machines.

It's an interesting design and not a bad one for Russia's first crack at stealth. But so much of this doesn't make sense, and orders/timeframes have slipped continuously since first flight. Russian propaganda is strong with this one..

Re: Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 15:52
by loke
They are probably going to try to sell the Su-57 to Turkey... most likely Turkey will be kicked out of the F-35 program within the next 3-6 months, and they have already indicated an interest in the Su-57. This recent publicity stunt from Tsar Vladimir is probably just to make the merchandise look more attractive to the Turks. Lipstick on a pig.