Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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mixelflick

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Unread post18 Jan 2019, 15:56

Those Russian dual boom CAS aircraft were painful to look at.

"Looks wrong, flies wrong" comes to mind :)
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milosh

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Unread post20 Jan 2019, 21:58

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Iraq wasn't on the offensive against the US before 1991 either.


I meant not offensive if you compare it to USSR strategy.
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marsavian

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Unread post28 Apr 2019, 21:44

The engine of the "first stage" for the Su-57 has passed all the tests and is launched into a series. It is also described as LO so I assume that is just the RAM paint that the Su-35 derivative, AL-41F-1S, got. Is that all the Type 30 is getting as well ?!

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6367151

MOSCOW, April 23. / Tass /. The engine of the "first stage" of the AL-41F-1 for the Su-57 fighter was launched into serial production, the working design documentation (RCD) of the engine was transferred to manufacturers in November 2018. This follows from the presentation of the Design Bureau named after A. M. Lyulka (enterprise - engine developer), available at TASS.

The development of an engine with thrust vectoring for the Su-57 began in 2004 on the basis of the engine of the Su-35S fighter. Its main difference from its predecessor - the newest electronic automatic control system (ACS). “For the first time in Russia, a fully digital SAU was applied on the domestic element base <...> A modification of this system is applied at the next development of the Lyulka Design Bureau - the engine for the second stage Su-57 aircraft,” the presentation authors noted.

Experts from the OKB explained that the engine of the “first stage” provides the Su-57 with such characteristics as super-maneuverability, thrust-to-weight ratio, low visibility. Another advantage is the plasma-oxygen-free ignition system of the main and afterburner combustion chambers.

Work is currently underway on the “second stage” engine for the Su-57. "The engine is distinguished by the ability to provide supersonic speed without the use of afterburner, as well as a fully digital control system," says the presentation of the new engine. The first test flight of the engine of the "second stage" took place in December 2017 as part of the Su-57.


https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3620231.html

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They also plan to retrofit the Type 30 second stage engine into these original production Su-57.

https://translate.yandex.com/translate? ... u-en&ui=en

The engine of the second stage "Type-30" is created in the same dimensions as installed on the su-57 AL-41F1, with the use of the su-35 is unlikely, said the Deputy technical Director of the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant named after Gagarin Yuri Kondratyev.

"The engine of the second stage are trying to do in the same dimensions, so large improvements in connection with its introduction, we do not plan," - said Kondratiev.

According to him, the aircraft that has already entered into force, will also be replaced with motors.

"The planes will be supplied with engines of the first stage, because the engine of the second stage only being tested. But in any case, after their testing and recommendations will be further developed in the replacement of the engine in the operating parts," - said Kondratiev.

The use of these engines on the su-35 is unlikely.

"Not ready to say. I think not," said Kondratyev, responding to a question of the correspondent "Stars".

He stressed that the company is ready to produce any number of su-57, which would require the Department of defense.

"The plant is preparing for production of the aircraft. We are the lead manufacturer and will produce it in any quantity", - said the representative of the Kniaz.

The program of the su-57 involves the use of the engine AL-41F1, which is used on su-35, the first phase of testing, and the new engine, known as "Type-30" on the second. First flight with this engine the aircraft was made in December last year.

It should be noted that "Type-30", is a completely new development, not a modification. It has greater traction, electronic control systems and less fuel consumption. This will increase the maneuverability of the aircraft, and in the future range.

The defense Ministry and Sukhoi signed a contract to supply up to 2020, two fifth generation fighters, the su-57 on the forum "Army-2018". The document implies the delivery of two su-57 in the period between 2018-2020 years, the first aircraft should be delivered to the customer next year.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 03:08

Honestly, nothing new at all....just stating the Izdeliye 117/AL-41F1 (Stage 1) has been cleared for production for the Su-57. While, Stage 2 (izdeliye 30) is still in development.


In short tell us something we don't know??? :wink:
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marsavian

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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 09:37

You missed two subtle but quite important points. The Su-57 is not being redesigned for the new engine, i.e. intake inlets, so this is the final 'stealthy' Su-57 shape. Secondly the Izdeliye 117/AL-41F1 is described as LO even though it doesn't have a engine blocker and will probably rely on RAM like its Su-35 brother engine, AL-41F1S. This leads me to believe they will rely on RAM too for the LO of the Izdeliye 30. Perhaps the Su-57 should be renamed as the Su-35++ to use a common Russian notation ;).
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 15:15

marsavian wrote:You missed two subtle but quite important points. The Su-57 is not being redesigned for the new engine, i.e. intake inlets, so this is the final 'stealthy' Su-57 shape. Secondly the Izdeliye 117/AL-41F1 is described as LO even though it doesn't have a engine blocker and will probably rely on RAM like its Su-35 brother engine, AL-41F1S. This leads me to believe they will rely on RAM too for the LO of the Izdeliye 30. Perhaps the Su-57 should be renamed as the Su-35++ to use a common Russian notation ;).


So I read this as the SU-57 won't be getting any stealthier, at least the basic airframe. The new engines are still a ways away and they're building one aircraft this year, and another in 2020. Tells me that in its current rendition, it's not a significant enhancement over the SU-35 - and likely won't be until the new motors are ready. If they're ever ready. They're likely the most difficult part of the SU-57 to get right.

If they encounter significant difficulties, I say the SU-57 gets shelved altogether. It's been almost 10 years since first flight, and money doesn't grow on trees. The longer it drags on, the more 4 plus plus Flankers they'll buy.

After that, not much $ is going to be around for the SU-57..
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 15:17

I know Russia have more letters. I don't know how many numbers they have. Given the su-35s was still a su-27, with the numbers changed and with one of their many letters added. I just hope there is enough left. I think a few block 2 and ++ may help them in the long term. It seems every time a su-27 gets a paint job, they give it another number, or a few letters. I can't keep up.
Aussie fanboy
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 16:01

Does Scooter have an account here? His claims and ideas makes me believe he could get along great with the majority here?
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 18:26

mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:You missed two subtle but quite important points. The Su-57 is not being redesigned for the new engine, i.e. intake inlets, so this is the final 'stealthy' Su-57 shape. Secondly the Izdeliye 117/AL-41F1 is described as LO even though it doesn't have a engine blocker and will probably rely on RAM like its Su-35 brother engine, AL-41F1S. This leads me to believe they will rely on RAM too for the LO of the Izdeliye 30. Perhaps the Su-57 should be renamed as the Su-35++ to use a common Russian notation ;).


So I read this as the SU-57 won't be getting any stealthier, at least the basic airframe. The new engines are still a ways away and they're building one aircraft this year, and another in 2020. Tells me that in its current rendition, it's not a significant enhancement over the SU-35


I would say from all the public data and analysis that backs up what the Russians are claiming that it is an order of magnitude better than the Su-35 is over the Su-27 and that's only from a head on state, so 20-30 sq m for Su-27, 2-3 sq m for Su-35 and 0.2-0.3 sq m for Su-57 and that's only if the engine fan is properly catered for either with blocker or judicious RAM. Really its stealth is no better than a clean Super Hornet / Rafale / Typhoon / Gripen, in effect a 4.5 gen fighter with enclosed bays, LO but not VLO.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jatm/v8n1/1984 ... 1-0040.pdf
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milosh

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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 21:12

@marsavian

Study which you use is about median RCS so median frontal RCS for Su-57 model used in that study is ~0.5m2 for X-band, while Su-35 is maybe 3-5m2 but that isn't median RCS but lowest value of frontal RCS. Median RCS is lot higher for Su-35.

Lowest value in 30-330deg they got for Su-57 model is 0.0001m2

Chinese authors concluded Su-57 model is VLO because they got similar numbers for other models they used, but only if Russians use radar blocker in intakes.

marsavian wrote:You missed two subtle but quite important points. The Su-57 is not being redesigned for the new engine, i.e. intake inlets, so this is the final 'stealthy' Su-57 shape. Secondly the Izdeliye 117/AL-41F1 is described as LO even though it doesn't have a engine blocker and will probably rely on RAM like its Su-35 brother engine, AL-41F1S. This leads me to believe they will rely on RAM too for the LO of the Izdeliye 30. Perhaps the Su-57 should be renamed as the Su-35++ to use a common Russian notation ;).


We saw some teasing photo about Type 30 earlier, IGV photo, it look like composite and curved but some sources mentioned it is in fact part of radar blocker, and on russian forums they mentioned some device which is developed for new engine which have its own number and insiders say it is radar blocker, maybe I am wrong (it was long ago) but number was 129.

Biggest problem with radar blocker is super cruising, using it would impact speed a lot. So I think variable ramp will act as some kind of radar blocker in that mode and classic radar blocker will be used for subsonic flight.

What is interesting is intake mach number, in patent they mentioned 3M. So I wouldn't be surprise if Su-57 in case of danger can go lot fast then top speed of 2.1-2.2M but wasting RAM and composites. F-22 could probable close to Mach 3 if it had variable intake.
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 03:17

I would say from all the public data and analysis that backs up what the Russians are claiming that it is an order of magnitude better than the Su-35 is over the Su-27 and that's only from a head on state, so 20-30 sq m for Su-27, 2-3 sq m for Su-35 and 0.2-0.3 sq m for Su-57 and that's only if the engine fan is properly catered for either with blocker or judicious RAM. Really its stealth is no better than a clean Super Hornet / Rafale / Typhoon / Gripen, in effect a 4.5 gen fighter with enclosed bays, LO but not VLO.

I would probably just give up on the RCS estimates of the SU-57 because there seems to be different answers out there. https://uacrussia.livejournal.com/81763.html

"When creating both combat and civil aircraft, the proportion of composite materials is constantly increasing. For example, 70% of the fifth generation fighter’s washed surface is carbon fiber. Composites greatly facilitate the weight of the structure, improve aerodynamics and allow to drastically reduce the visibility of the combat vehicle for radar.

Experts say that on the radar display of the fifth generation fighter, thanks to non-metallic coatings, no more than a bird."
uploaded the attachment regarding RCS of birds.

I am sure everyone remembers the time when the RCS estimates came out for the F-35 and F-22 that has once showed the F-22 being smaller in RCS than some years later General Hostage said the F-35 has a better stealth profile. Their older patent regarding RCS estimates can be different from our RCS estimates. And this source regarding the RCS I gave does not seem to be such a bad source since it does talk about fiber optics(shows images of it as well) to lower maintenance costs on the aircraft.

But rather if you agree or disagree I don't care which I just want you to keep in mind that different sources say different things(like RCS estimates) and the way they do their estimates from us(like what sides and areas they measure) can be different as well. Engines and fiber optics on its body is not the only modification the aircraft received for example newer computers,etc.
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 08:35

marsavian wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:You missed two subtle but quite important points. The Su-57 is not being redesigned for the new engine, i.e. intake inlets, so this is the final 'stealthy' Su-57 shape. Secondly the Izdeliye 117/AL-41F1 is described as LO even though it doesn't have a engine blocker and will probably rely on RAM like its Su-35 brother engine, AL-41F1S. This leads me to believe they will rely on RAM too for the LO of the Izdeliye 30. Perhaps the Su-57 should be renamed as the Su-35++ to use a common Russian notation ;).


So I read this as the SU-57 won't be getting any stealthier, at least the basic airframe. The new engines are still a ways away and they're building one aircraft this year, and another in 2020. Tells me that in its current rendition, it's not a significant enhancement over the SU-35


I would say from all the public data and analysis that backs up what the Russians are claiming that it is an order of magnitude better than the Su-35 is over the Su-27 and that's only from a head on state, so 20-30 sq m for Su-27, 2-3 sq m for Su-35 and 0.2-0.3 sq m for Su-57 and that's only if the engine fan is properly catered for either with blocker or judicious RAM. Really its stealth is no better than a clean Super Hornet / Rafale / Typhoon / Gripen, in effect a 4.5 gen fighter with enclosed bays, LO but not VLO.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jatm/v8n1/1984 ... 1-0040.pdf



Laughable..............
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 09:37


[/quote]

Similar study for F-35:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/RCS ... _313361269

Doesn't take RAM in equation same as Chinese.

F-35 model is better it is -11dBsm (aslo with wider angles), -8dBsm for Su-57 model isn't bad at all especially if you look size and compromise design it is.
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 19:14

The SU-57 project is 10 years on, and still going nowhere fast.

Still, the Russians have a strong track record of fixing things that ultimately work well (T-10 to SU-35). The difference here will be production numbers that are tiny. I just can't see all this capability they're talking about coming cheap,and a couple hundred is probably an optimistic number.

If Turkey buys and India decides to too, that might change things. But it's pretty clear that SU-57 as it exists today is a far, far cry from what the Indians want, and it'll cost whole lotta' bhat to get it to where they need it to be.

I suppose its possible they shelve it altogether. All of their other programs are going to eat up rubles, and you can't get blood from a rock. I wouldn't bet against them though... Putin has emotional attachment to this one...
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Unread post02 May 2019, 12:04

@mixelflick

I expect some cheaper variant is expected in future, for example with less composites and RAM it still would be much bigger problem then Su-35.

Smaller fleet of real VLO and bigger fleet of lets say LO (with smaller RCS then 4.5gen)
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