Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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mk82

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Unread post05 Jul 2018, 10:39

Corsair1963 wrote:“Today, the Su-35 is one of the world’s best fighters, so there is no reason for us to speed up work on mass production of the FGFA.”


:lmao:


Lol indeed!!! What a delusional statement. No wonder the Russian Air Force is going nowhere fast....in comparison to it’s peer competitors.
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mk82

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Unread post05 Jul 2018, 10:53

juretrn wrote:So by the time a prospective NGAD flies, the Russians might have 12 fully fledged 5th gens ( final engines 2025, proper avionics likely even later). *applause*


In Rossiya......It’s success!!!!! Lol! Meanwhile Indian MOD will be like......I will look for my next generation platform elsewhere thank you very much lol!

Doesn’t bode well for rest of the Russian Air Force....looks like only 12+ pilots flying in one SU 57 squadron/regiment may have some idea about 5th generation capabilities and tactics/CONOPS whilst the rest of the Russian Air Force remain blissfully ignorant (i.e. attacking with unguided munitions like it’s 1975 is the best lol!). Forget any meaningful 5th and 4th generation teaming with such a small silver bullet force of SU 57s.

Mk 82
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mixelflick

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Unread post05 Jul 2018, 15:31

mk82 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:“Today, the Su-35 is one of the world’s best fighters, so there is no reason for us to speed up work on mass production of the FGFA.”


:lmao:


Even assuming plentiful vodka, this is delusional thinking. Is the SU-35 an impressive fighter. Sure. Is it going to survive vs. the F-22? Nope. But the real thorn in its side will be the F-35, which is proliferating around the globe. Every day, more and more F-35's are showing up in various theater's, not the least of which is in Syria. Israeli and American F-35's are flying in the area, and the SU-35 will be hopelessly outclassed and out-gunned if it gets to be a shooting war.

If I were them, I'd lay low with the F-35 around. The first Flanker to fall to an F-35 will sound the death knell for its export prospects. And as soon as China gets in gear with the FC-31, they're done. Who the hell is going to buy Mig-29's, 35's or Flankers given they're essentially flying bulls eye's?
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vilters

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Unread post05 Jul 2018, 23:36

Old engines are only half the story.
Even with "old" engines, you should "at least try" to shield them to lower the radar (from the nose) and heat signature (from the rear). On the Pak-FA, they did not even try.
Doen not matter guys, put in on the; "What did we forget these last 10 years list."

How on planet earth can you ever learn something if you don't try?

Second : Hear and LISTEN to the Mig-29 and Flanker pilots.
For years they have been telling that cockpit/pilot ergonomix suck and pilots reach task saturation FAST.

Drop that "old style" Ground controlled Intercept and get let the pilots do the intercepts/fights.
When East-Germany joined West-Germany the pilots where in shock. Oh ! We have to "think"? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
They could fly, but they could not fight without ground control.
That whole concept is pre-historic.

Modern pilots have to be able to fly without KGB control, and get the tools 'aircrft and systems" to do so.
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 Jul 2018, 12:59

Is the pilot/aircraft/cockpit interface not better though in SU-35? Have to presume that... The real question is, how far removed is it from the late model F-15's, 16's, 22's and 35's??
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collimatrix

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Unread post06 Jul 2018, 14:51

mixelflick wrote:Is the pilot/aircraft/cockpit interface not better though in SU-35? Have to presume that... The real question is, how far removed is it from the late model F-15's, 16's, 22's and 35's??


The SU-35 has a proper glass cockpit:

Image

At a glance, it looks comparable to the Gripen's cockpit:

Image

Not a match for the F-35's cockpit, but then, nothing is. Still, respectable.

lrrpf52 wrote:They're still working on the Su-57's AL-41 engine. They made these prototype airframes before having an engine profile nailed down.

This is cart before the horse clown shoes hour. Who decided to do that?

What happens when they realize they need more mass flow through the ducts, longitudinal stresses create second and third order effects, and that supersonic behavior on the inlets doesn't work as well with the new engines, if they ever get them working and produced?


Is that any sillier than producing the first F-14s with TF-30 engines instead of the intended F100 variant, and then switching to F110s later on?

It's pretty clear that they're going to do something with the air intakes on the SU-57. The current design leaves the compressor blades exposed, and it's absurd to think they'll just leave it like that. All the panel access lines are sawtoothed and aligned, the refueling probe retracts, the horizontal tails are in line with the main wings, and they went to the considerable bother and expense of adding four internal weapons bays.

And you're telling me that they're just going to leave the air intakes the way they are? That's ridiculous. The signal return strength from the compressor blades would be far higher than from the panel lines, and they bothered aligning those. Sukhoi also has experience with S-curved ducts, the SU-47 had them. The current intake design is clearly a placeholder, just like the air intake design of the YF-23 was completely unrepresentative of what a production F-23A's air intakes would have looked like.

The semi-podded configuration does give them considerable structural freedom in re-designing the intakes to accommodate whatever the new engines need, airflow-wise.
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alloycowboy

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Unread post06 Jul 2018, 22:57

Typically aircraft manufacters like to use a tried and true engine on a new aircraft design in order to reduce the risk a bad engine killing the whole program and wiping out the company. This is why fighter jets always get a mid life engine upgrade.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -upgrades#
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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 00:10

Not sure if this has been posted before. I suggest reading the link first before picking it apart.

THE CONVENTIONAL MENATALITY OF THE AMERICANS OF CONSIDERING EVERY NON AMERICAN THINGS INFERIOR TO THEM HAS DRAWN A LOT OF DOWNPLAYING AND CRITICISM OF T 50 PROGRAM EVEN AT IT'S DEVELOPMENT STAGE. THE SUKHOI PAK-FA SHIFTS FOCUS FROM THE BASIC IDEOLOGY OF WESTERN MILITARY PLANNERS THAT A FIFTH GENERATION AIRCRAFT NEEDS TO BE STEALTH AND SITUATIONALLY AWARE.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE A DIFFERENT THOUGHT. THEY HAVE MADE A COUNTER-STEALTH MACHINE WHICH ITSELF IS JUST ENOUGH STEALTH TO FORCE ADVERSARY STEALTH AIRCRAFTS COME CLOSER TO DETECT IT AND GET DETECTED BY IT'S OWN DETECTION SYSTEMS. ALL THIS BY MAINTAINING SIMILAR LEVEL OF UNPRECEDENTED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. AS FUTURE BVR BATTLES ARE CONCERNED, THE PERFORMANCE OF BVRAAM DEPENDS UPON THE SPEED AND ALTITUDE OF LAUNCH PLATFORM, THUS IMOARTING GREATER RANGE TO A BVRAAM. FOR THIS THE SUKHOI SU-57 HAS HIGH SUPERCRUISING SPEEDS AND GREATER SERVICE CEILINGS OVER IT'S ENTIRE FLIGHT ENVELOPE, BETTER THAN THOSE 5TH GENERATION FIGHTERS IT IS SUPPOSED TO COMPETE WITH. FOR BATTLE AT CLOSE RANGES SUPERIOR KINEMATIC PERFORMANCE AND WIDE AVAILABILITY OF WEAPONS ALONG WITH ROBUST SELF PROTECTION ECM AND DIRCM DEVICES ARE NEEDED, WHICH IS WHERE SUKHOI SU-57 CLAIMS TO BE SUPERIOR. ALONG WITH ELIMINATING THE NEED OF A JAMMING SUPPORT AIRCRAFT AND TO SOME EXTENT AN AWACS AND RECONNAISANCE AIRCRAFT, SUKHOI SU-57 ISN'T JUST MULTIROLE , BUT OMNIROLE.


More at the jump
http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aeros ... amechanger
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juretrn

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 00:41

"5th gen doesn't need to be stealthy and situationally aware"
K
so you're just building fancy bullseyes.


"Flies higher and faster than other 5th gens"
F-35? Probably.
J-20? ??????
F-22? LOL NOPE -example: Mach 1.85(+) vs 1.6 (claimed with Izd. 30 engines) supercruise
Russia stronk
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garrya

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 06:26

zero_one wrote: A FIFTH GENERATION AIRCRAFT NEEDS TO BE STEALTH AND SITUATIONALLY AWARE.

AFAIK all 5 gen aircraft are stealthy: J-20, J-31, F-22, F-35, Su-57..etc. They also arguably have better situation awareness with either more kind of sensor or better sensors.

"ROFAR allow us to see the plane, located 500 kilometers away, as if we are standing 50 meters away from him at the airport, his portrait in the baseband. Moreover, if needed, this technology will look in the aircraft itself, to know what kind of people and Appliances are there, because the signal can pass any obstacles, even lead-meter wall, "- he said Mikheyev told reporters.

This is borderline science fiction BS
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mk82

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 07:31

zero-one wrote:Not sure if this has been posted before. I suggest reading the link first before picking it apart.

THE CONVENTIONAL MENATALITY OF THE AMERICANS OF CONSIDERING EVERY NON AMERICAN THINGS INFERIOR TO THEM HAS DRAWN A LOT OF DOWNPLAYING AND CRITICISM OF T 50 PROGRAM EVEN AT IT'S DEVELOPMENT STAGE. THE SUKHOI PAK-FA SHIFTS FOCUS FROM THE BASIC IDEOLOGY OF WESTERN MILITARY PLANNERS THAT A FIFTH GENERATION AIRCRAFT NEEDS TO BE STEALTH AND SITUATIONALLY AWARE.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE A DIFFERENT THOUGHT. THEY HAVE MADE A COUNTER-STEALTH MACHINE WHICH ITSELF IS JUST ENOUGH STEALTH TO FORCE ADVERSARY STEALTH AIRCRAFTS COME CLOSER TO DETECT IT AND GET DETECTED BY IT'S OWN DETECTION SYSTEMS. ALL THIS BY MAINTAINING SIMILAR LEVEL OF UNPRECEDENTED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. AS FUTURE BVR BATTLES ARE CONCERNED, THE PERFORMANCE OF BVRAAM DEPENDS UPON THE SPEED AND ALTITUDE OF LAUNCH PLATFORM, THUS IMOARTING GREATER RANGE TO A BVRAAM. FOR THIS THE SUKHOI SU-57 HAS HIGH SUPERCRUISING SPEEDS AND GREATER SERVICE CEILINGS OVER IT'S ENTIRE FLIGHT ENVELOPE, BETTER THAN THOSE 5TH GENERATION FIGHTERS IT IS SUPPOSED TO COMPETE WITH. FOR BATTLE AT CLOSE RANGES SUPERIOR KINEMATIC PERFORMANCE AND WIDE AVAILABILITY OF WEAPONS ALONG WITH ROBUST SELF PROTECTION ECM AND DIRCM DEVICES ARE NEEDED, WHICH IS WHERE SUKHOI SU-57 CLAIMS TO BE SUPERIOR. ALONG WITH ELIMINATING THE NEED OF A JAMMING SUPPORT AIRCRAFT AND TO SOME EXTENT AN AWACS AND RECONNAISANCE AIRCRAFT, SUKHOI SU-57 ISN'T JUST MULTIROLE , BUT OMNIROLE.


More at the jump
http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aeros ... amechanger


This frankly belongs in the basement dweller thread.

A few things come to my mind......if the publicly available figures on the SU 57’s RCS are true, the SU 57’s stealth is not good enough PERIOD. A adversarial stealth aircraft with proper VLO qualities will kill an SU 57 before the SU 57 could detect it. Even if the SU 57 has F22 or F35 like levels of networked sensor fusion (and that is a big IF), the SU 57 will still be fighting from a disadvantaged position....not a great way to enter a fight.

So the SU 57 can impart a lot of energy to its missiles.....that’s great....until you realize there is a more fundamental issue in combat.....You can’t kill what you can’t see......BLACK AND WHITE......CUT AND DRIED......from caveman days till now. You do not win battles by slinging missiles blindly.

ECM is not “robust” unless you know exactly what you are jamming. Good luck with that against top of the line LPI systems. In the context of WVR combat, the SU 57 jamming in the RF spectrum successfully (and that is another big IF) means jack sh*t against a thoroughly sensor fused adversary such as a F35 which can still generate a weapons quality track from EOTS, EODAS, EW and other F35s. The effectiveness of the SU 57’s DIRCM remains to be seen.......oh BTW the F35 (and possibly the F22) is getting DIRCM too. In terms of WVR, the F22 can easily match and probably outmatch the SU 57. The F35 is no slouch too in WVR, especially at low to medium altitudes. A SU 57 pilot who does not bring his/her A game to a fight against F35s will be taught a very painful lesson by the F35 pilots....even in WVR.

It is very obvious that this cretinous article is written by a moron who is still stuck in the 4th generation world.
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mk82

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 07:32

juretrn wrote:"5th gen doesn't need to be stealthy and situationally aware"
K
so you're just building fancy bullseyes.


"Flies higher and faster than other 5th gens"
F-35? Probably.
J-20? ??????
F-22? LOL NOPE -example: Mach 1.85(+) vs 1.6 (claimed with Izd. 30 engines) supercruise


Spot on juretrn!
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mk82

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 07:33

garrya wrote:
zero_one wrote: A FIFTH GENERATION AIRCRAFT NEEDS TO BE STEALTH AND SITUATIONALLY AWARE.

AFAIK all 5 gen aircraft are stealthy: J-20, J-31, F-22, F-35, Su-57..etc. They also arguably have better situation awareness with either more kind of sensor or better sensors.

"ROFAR allow us to see the plane, located 500 kilometers away, as if we are standing 50 meters away from him at the airport, his portrait in the baseband. Moreover, if needed, this technology will look in the aircraft itself, to know what kind of people and Appliances are there, because the signal can pass any obstacles, even lead-meter wall, "- he said Mikheyev told reporters.

This is borderline science fiction BS


More like ROFART..lol!
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zero-one

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 09:10

Just to be clear. I'm not taking the Su-57's side.
I was hoping we can all read the article so that we will know the adversary better and know how to pick it apart better.

Like this one:
THE RUSSIANS HAVE A DIFFERENT THOUGHT. THEY HAVE MADE A COUNTER-STEALTH MACHINE WHICH ITSELF IS JUST ENOUGH STEALTH TO FORCE ADVERSARY STEALTH AIRCRAFTS COME CLOSER TO DETECT IT AND GET DETECTED BY IT'S OWN DETECTION SYSTEMS. ALL THIS BY MAINTAINING SIMILAR LEVEL OF UNPRECEDENTED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.


1. Okay if by your own claims , you have "just enough Stealth" then why are you detecting the the American fighter which has more stealth at the same time that he is detecting you?

Are you saying that the Su-57's sensors are so powerful that it can detect stealthier platforms at the same time that the stealthier platform can detect it? But by your own statements you only have "SIMILAR LEVEL OF UNPRECEDENTED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS"

2. Even if the answer to #1 is yes, then all you have achieved is Situational Awareness parity.

AS FUTURE BVR BATTLES ARE CONCERNED, THE PERFORMANCE OF BVRAAM DEPENDS UPON THE SPEED AND ALTITUDE OF LAUNCH PLATFORM, THUS IMOARTING GREATER RANGE TO A BVRAAM


But I thought your game plan was to have both 5th gens closer to each other. so why increase the range of the BVRAAM?

FOR BATTLE AT CLOSE RANGES SUPERIOR KINEMATIC PERFORMANCE AND WIDE AVAILABILITY OF WEAPONS ALONG WITH ROBUST SELF PROTECTION ECM AND DIRCM DEVICES ARE NEEDED,


Yeah, basically this is what the F-22 and F-35 bring to a WVR fight, glad we agree on that
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botsing

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 13:10

Why are we even putting energy in this piece of BS that is clearly the result of fanboy fiction?

It has nothing to do with how the other side is thinking or knowing the adversary better, it is just a piece of wistful thinking by a fanboy.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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