Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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archmage10

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Unread post03 Jan 2013, 17:35

Pak-fa is said to be able to match the Raptor

The F-35 is inferior to the F-22

Now using that triangular logic, the F-35 is inferior to the PAK-FA, but that's not how it always works

Will the F-35 be able to match both the Pak-fa and even the F-22?
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JoeSambor

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Unread post03 Jan 2013, 18:12

archmage10 wrote:now using that triangular logic,

More like pretzel logic....
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neurotech

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Unread post03 Jan 2013, 21:20

These kind of statements are misguided at best.

A MiG-29 has a better T/W ratio than a F-16, but the F-16 a tighter turn radius, assuming both jets are in A/A configuration. How many MiG-29s have downed a F-16 in combat? Zero confirmed kills. F-16 kills over a MiG-29, at least 3.

I very much doubt the PAK-FA is going to match the Raptor across the board. It *could* have a higher top speed, but doubtful it would have better sustained turn rate than a Raptor in a dogfight. Doubtful it will have a better AESA radar too.
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neptune

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Unread post03 Jan 2013, 22:34

Yes,

IRIS-T; allowing turns of 60 g at a rate of 60°/s.

An airplane is more than a motor; :) Systems :)
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neurotech

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Unread post03 Jan 2013, 23:23

neptune wrote:IRIS-T; allowing turns of 60 g at a rate of 60°/s.

An airplane is more than a motor; Systems

Nepture is correct in saying that its more than the engine that makes a fighter. Its the airframe capability, avionics, weapons, and pilot training that makes a difference in capability of a fighter aircraft.

The R-73/AA-11 Archer with a MIG-29A had Helmet Cueing System and the MiG-29C/M/SMT or newer, with more advanced HMDS Cueing is quite a combination close in. When German MiG-29As were first evaluated by the west, they discovered the capability close-in was underestimated.

Because the PAK-FA systems are likely based on the Su-27/30/35 series, its unlikely that any major surprises are in the PAK-FA.
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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 01:47

If pak-fa's stealth/radar signature is to be believed, the F-35 gets first look/first shot. The question then comes down to jamming. Can the T-50 jam/otherwise evade the latest AMRAAM's and in turn, detect the F-35 in time to run it down?

That latter point is the most concerning, IMO. Unlike the F-22, it's doubtful the F-35 will be able to run away from a T-50 once detected. The air-air F-35 load out I'm hearing is 6 AMRAAM's at best, and it's not like there are versions which have IR heads like many of the Russian missles. Point being, if you can jam the F-35's AMRAAM - you can jam 100% of its air-to air weapons. Maybe I missed it, but haven't seen any AIM-9x's in the mix - and there's talk of it not having an internal gun?

The latter is madness, IMO. Seems like forgetting that hard learned lesson from Vietnam would be a big mistake...
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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 02:41

'mixelflick' said: "....and there's talk of it not having an internal gun?" Most of the F-35s built will be F-35As - all will have an internal gun.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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alloycowboy

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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 03:26

What does the PAK-FA have for avionics, sensors and networking capability?
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neptune

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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 04:26

spazsinbad wrote:'mixelflick' said: "....and there's talk of it not having an internal gun?" Most of the F-35s built will be F-35As - all will have an internal gun.


70%, F-35A w/internal gun = 1,531
30%, F-35B/C w/external gun = 680
100%, w/guns 2,211


It will be unreasonable for the 340 F-35C a/c to leave the deck of the a/c carrier without a gun, when in the role of fleet defense.

The external gun is in a stealth gun pod and has a larger round capacity than the internal gun.

Internal GAU-12 180 rounds of 25mm
External GAU-12 225 rounds of 25mm

F-18 578 rounds 20mm

Bigger bullets and better sights :D or sneak up an shoot them in the "6" (will not need as many rounds????).....whatever :wink:

:)
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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 05:45

mixelflick wrote:Unlike the F-22, it's doubtful the F-35 will be able to run away from a T-50 once detected.
Even if it is slower (and less maneuverable), which I am not convinced is the case, stealth and better sensors would still mean it can watch the other plane and stay where it won't be seen, so there's no chase to worry about, and even if it were to run away, that can often work against a faster chaser anyway, just because closing the distance takes time and the chaser would need to be closer because missiles' effective ranges are lowest against a fleeing target.

mixelflick wrote:The air-air F-35 load out I'm hearing is 6 AMRAAM's at best, and it's not like there are versions which have IR heads like many of the Russian missles... Maybe I missed it, but haven't seen any AIM-9x's in the mix
F-35 can carry Sidewinders. The outermost wing pylons are for Sidewinder rails, and mechanisms are in the works to put them inside as well; the rail would just need to move a bit when the doors open & close to put the missile outside for launch. So even looking at just the 6 internal AMRAAMs, anything from 1 to 4 of them could be replaced by 1 or 2 Sidewinders apiece, depending on exactly how the mechanism is designed. Like the one for carrying two AMRAAMs on one internal air-to-ground hardpoint, the exact design hasn't been released yet, so all we know is that it's being developed.

But really, how many AMRAAMs do you think one target plane can handle?
Last edited by delvo on 04 Jan 2013, 14:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Conan

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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 06:09

mixelflick wrote:If pak-fa's stealth/radar signature is to be believed, the F-35 gets first look/first shot. The question then comes down to jamming. Can the T-50 jam/otherwise evade the latest AMRAAM's and in turn, detect the F-35 in time to run it down?

That latter point is the most concerning, IMO. Unlike the F-22, it's doubtful the F-35 will be able to run away from a T-50 once detected. The air-air F-35 load out I'm hearing is 6 AMRAAM's at best, and it's not like there are versions which have IR heads like many of the Russian missles. Point being, if you can jam the F-35's AMRAAM - you can jam 100% of its air-to air weapons. Maybe I missed it, but haven't seen any AIM-9x's in the mix - and there's talk of it not having an internal gun?


The possibility of it's tiny on-board radar being jammed, is probably why the latest AMRAAM variants are equipped with 2-way datalinks, GPS/INS guidance systems as well as home on jam capability, in addition to their active radar seekers don't you think?

This gives each AMRAAM missile, 3 entirely separate targetting means... That combined with much shorter comparative range, is why the primary air to air missiles in use today are active radar guided missiles and not IR guided missiles.

It is interesting you think IR guided missiles are somehow less susceptible to "jamming" than radar guided missiles. Never heard of DIRCM, have you?
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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 06:51

archmage10 wrote:Pak-fa is said to be able to match the Raptor

The F-35 is inferior to the F-22

Now using that triangular logic, the F-35 is inferior to the PAK-FA, but that's not how it always works

Will the F-35 be able to match both the Pak-fa and even the F-22?

Based on what scenario? A2A? Strike? Interdiction? SEAD? CAP? Systems engagement? Who's the offensive/defensive team? What other assets are involved? What are the ROE's? How many vs. how many? There are more F-35's flying right now than most air forces even have fighters in inventory, and the PAK-FA doesn't have ONE operational acft at this point. Please excuse the frankness, but there is no true forethought to the question being asked
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XanderCrews

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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 07:12

it's doubtful the F-35 will be able to run away from a T-50 once detected.


To quote one of my military friends "Who said anything about running away?" 8)

The latter is madness, IMO. Seems like forgetting that hard learned lesson from Vietnam would be a big mistake...


I love how even though we equip every fighter aircraft with guns, and missiles are vastly improved, and we practice ACM all the time, and the JSF is going to be in service for the next 5 decades, which means we will get another half century of gun equipped fighters in the air, we still get to hear about a war that happened 50 years ago. I also love how guns ALWAYS work in these scenarios. They never jam or miss or anything. There are a lot of "hard lessons" we could take from Air combat in Vietnam, but they don't involve the gun, so the internet doesn't care. For example, Far more American Aircraft were lost to SAMs and ground fire than MiGs by a wide margin.

But back to your example,

So essentially what we have here, is a scenario where the F-35 is detected, its own electronic abilities are overwhelmed, and none of its weapons work. How will it do? Well off the top of my head I would probably say about as well as any other aircraft when nothing that aids in its combat survival works. Let me ask you a question, How do you feel the F-22 would do in the same scenario? Or the PAK-Fa if the situation is reversed? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I bet you the aircraft where nothing works probably has a bad showing (Yes, even with a gun) I would also wonder why an aircraft with so many advantages over its adversary would even get within gun range or a turning battle at all.
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KamenRiderBlade

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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 08:49

What I want to know is when the PAK-FA will reach th F-35's level of LRIP that it currently is in?

Who has promised to buy the PAK-FA?

Will we even see the PAK-FA ready to fight by the time that the F-35 is fully capable?
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Unread post04 Jan 2013, 10:00

What I want to know is when the PAK-FA will reach th F-35's level of LRIP that it currently is in?


You mean production of ~36 per year? Maybe never. In recent years Russia has produced fighters at only a trickle.

Who has promised to buy the PAK-FA?


Only India is signed up at this point and there are few other potential operators out there. One by one countries that once turned to Russia for arms are shifting to new suppliers.

Will we even see the PAK-FA ready to fight by the time that the F-35 is fully capable?


Fully capable meaning what? Both will see their capabilities grow over the years ... and why does it matter? The F-35 and PAK FA are very different designs with very different missions.
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