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Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2017, 18:27
by mixelflick
On the F-35 destroying an SU-35 with a 180 degree shot, this assumes the 9x is being carried - and to my knowledge that's only on outboard weapons pylon.

Are we assuming the F-35 is not stealthy, or has there been confirmation that external 9x carriage is sufficiently low observable, to warrant its carriage? I tend to believe the latter, as I think they've got it canted and such for a reason..

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2017, 18:30
by SpudmanWP
Why assume the 9x?

An AMRAAM is completely able to do HOBS shots and has even undergone HOBS updates in the C7 and D versions.

In fact, the Northrop animations showing a HOBS shot on a trailing SU have been done with an AMRAAM.

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 00:42
by gta4
mixelflick wrote:On the F-35 destroying an SU-35 with a 180 degree shot, this assumes the 9x is being carried - and to my knowledge that's only on outboard weapons pylon.


That's exactly what I want!

If the F35 remains stealthy how could the F35 lure Su-35s to chase it? :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 03:04
by blindpilot
gta4 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:On the F-35 destroying an SU-35 with a 180 degree shot, this assumes the 9x is being carried - and to my knowledge that's only on outboard weapons pylon.

That's exactly what I want!
If the F35 remains stealthy how could the F35 lure Su-35s to chase it? :mrgreen:


As with Spuds reply, it can be an AMRAAM which WILL be stealthy (9X on outboard may be too? We don't know that),

... BUT as you sort of ask at the end, these WW I dogfight questions become mind bogglingly meaningless. Superior missile performance and SA mastery means the F-35 sees and understands, maneuvers where ever it is advantageous for him to be, at his leisure, without the target even knowing the game has started, and fires Hi PK shots ... which the target only finds out about as he is dying.

If you end up with Mk 1 eyeballs WVR with modern missiles, then today's verdict is usually mutual suicide due to off boresight. (although with DAS the F-35 never "loses sight" with its HMS, and "targeting" it even close up is a challenge) Everything else for the stealth fighter is clubbing baby seals. Why would an F-35 pilot ever go/get there (WVR), unless he was really stupid?

Why are we discussing these stupid questions?

MHO
BP

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2017, 03:12
by gta4
A similar experience from HAWX the game:

That game features an "all aspect missile" which could literally engage an enemy at your tail. With this missile equipped, you do not need to bleed energy to get in a missile lock position. All you need to do is to maintain at least 500 knots and get ready to evade incoming missiles.

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 07:55
by charlielima223
Maybe someone can explain this to me...

When ever an article about the Su-35 comes up its always described as a "gen 4.5+" or a "4.5++". What exactly makes it a "++" over other gen 4.5 aircraft? It doesn't have an AESA radar. It doesn't have much in the way of reduced observable. The only thing that is impressive about it (IMO) is its acrobatic stunt maneuvers at airshows.

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 09:03
by hythelday
charlielima223 wrote:Maybe someone can explain this to me...

When ever an article about the Su-35 comes up its always described as a "gen 4.5+" or a "4.5++". What exactly makes it a "++" over other gen 4.5 aircraft? It doesn't have an AESA radar. It doesn't have much in the way of reduced observable. The only thing that is impressive about it (IMO) is its acrobatic stunt maneuvers at airshows.


Easy, everytime they came up with new iteration of Su-27, they added another gen.

What is a generation anyway? There isn't an ISO or STANAG or ГОСТ for aircraft gens. Why is a Eurocanrd/Flanker+ a "4.5 gen" bird? Because they came to the market 20-30 years later than OG 4th gen F-15? Is advanced F-15 also a 4.5++ plane?

When Raptor came about, 5th gen plane was to be able to supercruise at 1.5M (per USAF). Seems like now this requirement has been dropped, or else F-35 wouldn't make it.

As for Su-27M/30/30M/35s, then you are correct - nothing special that would elevate them above "4th gen" competition, save for TVC on some models.

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 10:41
by gta4
Su-35 has nothing more advanced than a conventional Gen. 4 fighter, except 2 things:
1) PESA
2) TVC

Other performances are mediocre. You can take a look at Su-35's official conventional maneuverability data (climbing, acceleration...) They are even worse than an obsolete Mig-29.

In other words, any mediocre Gen. 4 fighter could achieve the same, or even better performance if equipped with PESA radar and TVC.

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 10:50
by gta4
In fact I would call a GE129 (or pw229) powered F-15E(especially F-15K/SG equipped with AESA) to be a Gen. 4++ fighter, rather than Su-35.

It has AESA instead of PESA. It can supercruise (Loaded!) with military power (confirmed by flight manual). Its energy performance without CFT (acceleration, climbing...) is several deviations above ordinary Gen. 4, including Su-35.

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 18:08
by viper12
gta4 wrote:It can supercruise (Loaded!) with military power (confirmed by flight manual). Its energy performance without CFT (acceleration, climbing...) is several deviations above ordinary Gen. 4, including Su-35.


Isn't it a very limited supercruise, like Mach 1.05 ?

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 19:32
by terrygedran
gta4 wrote: They are even worse than an obsolete Mig-29.



And none of the other 4 gen plane come close to Mig-29 on this performance characteristics.

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 19:33
by terrygedran
viper12 wrote:Isn't it a very limited supercruise, like Mach 1.05 ?


Yes it is.

And Su-35 can do that too.

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 19:45
by terrygedran
charlielima223 wrote:Maybe someone can explain this to me...

When ever an article about the Su-35 comes up its always described as a "gen 4.5+" or a "4.5++". What exactly makes it a "++" over other gen 4.5 aircraft? It doesn't have an AESA radar. It doesn't have much in the way of reduced observable. The only thing that is impressive about it (IMO) is its acrobatic stunt maneuvers at airshows.


Su-35 not steath and not super-cruise on mil power.
Everything else corresponds to the 5th generation(Irbris-E performance almost no way inferior to that of AESA radar F-22)

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 19:56
by ricnunes
terrygedran wrote:
gta4 wrote: They are even worse than an obsolete Mig-29.



And none of the other 4 gen plane come close to Mig-29 on this performance characteristics.


cough... F-16 cough.... :roll:

Re: F-35 vs Su-30/35

Unread postPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 21:58
by hythelday
terrygedran wrote:
gta4 wrote: They are even worse than an obsolete Mig-29.



And none of the other 4 gen plane come close to Mig-29 on this performance characteristics.


Yup, 16% mission capable rate is hard to beat! Also, zero A/A victories is quite impressive. :doh: