F-35 vs Su-30/35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 10:46

I can see many things going on for F-35 even if the fight went to WVR:

- It has very detailed info about the situation and who is who and where everybody (friend or foe) is long before it went there
- EODAS keeps an eye where everybody is all the time and all around the F-35
- Even if certain F-35 could not see something, it will get info about that near instantaneously from other F-35s using MADL.
- Sensor fusion automatically tasks all sensors to maximize SA in every situation even when in hard turning WVR fight where a human pilot might not even be able to operate the sensors
- EODAS allows the pilot to see better than with Mk1 eyeball especially during night or in poor weather
- EODAS and helmet allows the pilot to see in every direction with equal ability
- EODAS can likely track basically limitless number of objects all the time
- EODAS will detect enemy missile launches and track the missiles during their flight and can assist the pilot in avoiding the missiles increasing survivability in WVR fight
- F-35 still has very competitive acceleration and all-around maneuverability at relevant speeds and altitudes
- F-35 has a lot of internal fuel which allows more time in AB than most other fighter aircraft


So it's pretty easy to see that F-35 pilots will have significantly better SA than a pilot in any other fighter aircraft. This includes BVR, entering WVR and WVR distances. That's pretty big deal especially in more complex situations than 1-on-1. Even if we don't count on that, then F-35 has very competitive performance in WVR regime against pretty any other fighter.
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boogieman

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 11:02

Yes indeed. I think I said in another thread that EODAS is the F35s trump card in WVR. To look at it another way, most internet scenarios assume combat during the day for whatever reason - how much of an advantage is EODAS when fighting at night?
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Corsair1963

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 11:09

boogieman wrote:Yes indeed. I think I said in another thread that EODAS is the F35s trump card in WVR. To look at it another way, most internet scenarios assume combat during the day for whatever reason - how much of an advantage is EODAS when fighting at night?



Clearly, the F-35's advantages in Sensor Fusion would only increase at night or in inclement weather. Yet, for much of the world that is the majority of the time!
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Corsair1963

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 11:10

hornetfinn wrote:I can see many things going on for F-35 even if the fight went to WVR:

- It has very detailed info about the situation and who is who and where everybody (friend or foe) is long before it went there
- EODAS keeps an eye where everybody is all the time and all around the F-35
- Even if certain F-35 could not see something, it will get info about that near instantaneously from other F-35s using MADL.
- Sensor fusion automatically tasks all sensors to maximize SA in every situation even when in hard turning WVR fight where a human pilot might not even be able to operate the sensors
- EODAS allows the pilot to see better than with Mk1 eyeball especially during night or in poor weather
- EODAS and helmet allows the pilot to see in every direction with equal ability
- EODAS can likely track basically limitless number of objects all the time
- EODAS will detect enemy missile launches and track the missiles during their flight and can assist the pilot in avoiding the missiles increasing survivability in WVR fight
- F-35 still has very competitive acceleration and all-around maneuverability at relevant speeds and altitudes
- F-35 has a lot of internal fuel which allows more time in AB than most other fighter aircraft


So it's pretty easy to see that F-35 pilots will have significantly better SA than a pilot in any other fighter aircraft. This includes BVR, entering WVR and WVR distances. That's pretty big deal especially in more complex situations than 1-on-1. Even if we don't count on that, then F-35 has very competitive performance in WVR regime against pretty any other fighter.


Funny, that the F-35 critics never touch the subject...... :wink:
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 12:22

boogieman wrote:Yes indeed. I think I said in another thread that EODAS is the F35s trump card in WVR. To look at it another way, most internet scenarios assume combat during the day for whatever reason - how much of an advantage is EODAS when fighting at night?

I don't think anyone is going to be 'dogfighting at night'. Sure the F-35 can see at night but can the opponent? What are they doing - more or less looking inside at screens looking for the F-35 which is easily lightly maneuvering at will around to bring whatever weapon to bear - even long before getting within 'dogfighting range'. No one will have lights on to let others know where they are. The potential for SPATIAL DISORIENTATION - especially for NON-F-35 opponents will be high.

Think about it. F-35 does a classic sneak attack with the opponent none the wiser - most likely - until 'weapons away'. 8)

I wear my sunglasses at night: Corey Hart - Sunglasses At Night (Official Music Video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56HSPQHSqEE

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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wrightwing

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 16:13

Perhaps not dogfighting per se, but with EODAS and auto-GCAS, F-35 pilots will be able to fly much more aggressively at night, than any opponents. Of course HOBS missiles and spherical engagement, will mean they have to fly much less aggressively, under most every circumstance.
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gta4

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 17:58

https://youtu.be/AguVV7SH9eY

At 55:40 Terry Scott admits that the TVC of F-22 supports deferential deflections.
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f119doctor

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 18:21

gta4 wrote:<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://youtu.be/AguVV7SH9eY</span>

At 55:40 Terry Scott admits that the TVC of F-22 supports deferential deflections.


I believe that you are interpreting his use of “differential” incorrectly.

I can tell you that the F-22 engine nozzles move exclusively together in pitch under command request from the flight controls. This extra pitch authority does free the aircraft horizontal stabs from some of their pitch responsibilities, allowing them to provide more differential roll capability. Ref the Paul Metz interviews...
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gta4

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 18:29

f119doctor wrote:
gta4 wrote:<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://youtu.be/AguVV7SH9eY</span>

At 55:40 Terry Scott admits that the TVC of F-22 supports deferential deflections.


I believe that you are interpreting his use of “differential” incorrectly.

I can tell you that the F-22 engine nozzles move exclusively together in pitch under command request from the flight controls. This extra pitch authority does free the aircraft horizontal stabs from some of their pitch responsibilities, allowing them to provide more differential roll capability. Ref the Paul Metz interviews...


Well, I have an AIAA paper saying the differential deflection of TVC helps the roll rate of the F-22. They have even the flight data comparing the on/off roll rate.
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steve2267

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 18:33

Post the paper.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 18:34

Or, at least cite a bibliographic reference.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 19:00

yeah, debate f119doctor on the function of the F119.... AFTER they explain how pitch only TVC allows improved roll rates...
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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 19:01

Several above have alluded to the idea, but I’ll use this quote from boogie’n for reference —

“...F-35 pilots will have significantly better SA than a pilot in any other fighter aircraft. This includes BVR, entering WVR and WVR distances.”

Amen. Many are still coming to terms with what constitutes the new ‘visual range’ and consequently where one is actually ‘within’ that space — day, night and/or in marginal or bad wx. ‘Visual’ is now far, far greater than the mk1/mod 0 eyeball. Our sensors see at incredible range; fusion sorts it out, does some sense-making and tracks it; and, the helmet tells us where to look. That is very powerful mojo.

The extension of ‘WVR’ to ranges that used to be exclusively BVR — combined with weapons highly effective even in countermeasures-intensive environments — also complicates the question of where commit decisions occur as well as when it is time to retire. The scale and lethality of the new WVR is such that mutual kills, if not assured, become increasingly likely if two opposing players get something off the rail before their own jet explodes.

Good to be just a spectator in all this...
Last edited by quicksilver on 05 Dec 2019, 19:07, edited 1 time in total.
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quicksilver

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 19:05

“Well, I have an AIAA paper saying the differential deflection of TVC helps the roll rate of the F-22. They have even the flight data comparing the on/off roll rate.“

Hmmm. Does it say that or does it say that use of pitch-only TVC allows commitment of the tailplanes to roll augmentation?
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milosh

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 19:52

wrightwing wrote:Exactly. In most cases, they wouldn't know they were under attack until the AMRAAM went active. Good luck trying to merge, when you're not sure who shot you or from where. Its certainly beneficial to train for guns only defensive merges, but those will be the exception and not the rule, under real world conditions.


Question is how good MAWS systems are on other modern fighters. If you look numbers even Russian systems from 2000s look quite capable, for example SOAR which I already mentioned is 30km for AAM it is couple of IR sensors which have similar role as F-22 MAWS, they can't send video to pilot but they provide 360deg IR SA for pilot through sensor fusion.

30km for AAM isn't bad at all, and I am sure there are some other systems (maybe Rafale Spectra IR sensors) which are even better then then SOAR. I expect Su-57 will have more capable system then MiG-35 and Su-35 SOAR and probable Su-57 system will be used as upgrade for other russian fighters. India for example want Super 30 upgrade (for Su-30) to use as much as possible Su-57 tech.
Last edited by milosh on 05 Dec 2019, 20:01, edited 1 time in total.
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