F-35 vs Su-30/35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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boogieman

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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 23:42

The main drawback I can see with using AIM120 in WVR is its Rmin which, if other posters are correct, is about 1 mile. In a very tight furball this is obviously not ideal, which is why Sidewinder has generally been there to cover the gap up until gun range.

With this said, it is very easy to get bogged down looking at how a particularly technology can be used rather than how it most likely will be used by its operators. I think you will find that over the next 10-15 years F35 operators will be looking to leverage its advantage in BVR by scoring as many kills as possible before a WVR fight occurs, with the aim of entering the WVR arena with an advantage in terms of both numbers and energy state. Failing this, the F35 still has the option of using DAS and MADL to cue HOBS AMRAAM shots as needed, while keeping the jet itself in a high energy state and consequently in a better position to defend incoming missile shots. By the time the fight gets inside the ~1nm Rmin of AMRAAM, OPFOR should be heavily outnumbered, significantly reducing the need for an AIM9X style SRM.

This could all be turned on its head further down the track as weapons like AIM260 and Peregrine potentially enter the mix. In this case the AIM260 would take the place of AMRAAM and the highly agile Peregrine would be there to cover the gap between the AIM260's Rmin and gun range.
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charlielima223

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Unread post04 Dec 2019, 04:38

milosh wrote:
Btw why Americans bother to make sidebays for F-22, why Russians developed bumpy pods, why Chinese design missile rail for J-20 so it can carry wvr missile externally during wvr combat, .


Not really for the F-22 as explained by former F-15 and F-22 pilot...
Time index 48:45


As I am interpreting what was said, its all based on tactics. The F-22 doesn't enter or approach the merge with the sidewinders out and exposed. Instead the pilot waits for an opportune time to expose the sidewinder before taking the shot. From my understanding the AIM-9X block ii has LOAL and data-link capability. This makes it more suited for the F-22 (which now has it) as it can release the sidewinder and then give it the target instead of "theres the target, now go get it".
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wrightwing

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Unread post04 Dec 2019, 21:13

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to dictate the terms of a merge vs an F-35? If an F-35 has to get <2km from an opponent, it'll likely use a stealthy approach to gun them without them ever being the wiser. It's highly doubtful the F-35 would wait till 2km, to use AIM-120s, either.
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boogieman

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Unread post04 Dec 2019, 21:29

wrightwing wrote:In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to dictate the terms of a merge vs an F-35? If an F-35 has to get <2km from an opponent, it'll likely use a stealthy approach to gun them without them ever being the wiser. It's highly doubtful the F-35 would wait till 2km, to use AIM-120s, either.


Agree with all of the above. If you're responding to me here I was simply referring to a hypothetical scenario where the bandits were - for whatever reason - able to survive up to that range. This returns to my original point though, which is that the whole design philosophy behind the F35 makes it extremely well optimised to kill everything it needs to before the merge occurs and simply leave the fight if a favourable WVR engagement can't be obtained.
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wrightwing

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Unread post04 Dec 2019, 23:04

I just don't find it particulary plausible for an opponent (especially Flanker/Fulcrum) to dodge every missile, till they're within <2km, and then manage to keep an F-35 from getting necessary separation for an AMRAAM shot. It only gets worse in the next several years, when MSDM and DIRCM come online, as well as Peregrine/SACM, AIM-260, and LREW.
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boogieman

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Unread post04 Dec 2019, 23:22

It's a remote possibility to be sure but not a non existent one. Both Russia and China could theoretically do it by swamping our F35s with superior numbers and pushing to the merge. In both theatres we could easily face a situation where our aircraft and airbases have been degraded by BM and LACM strikes, limiting our sortie generation rates and giving them a numerical advantage in some parts of the theatre. They would be fighting from home after all.
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munny

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Unread post04 Dec 2019, 23:57

wrightwing wrote:I just don't find it particulary plausible for an opponent (especially Flanker/Fulcrum) to dodge every missile, till they're within <2km, and then manage to keep an F-35 from getting necessary separation for an AMRAAM shot. It only gets worse in the next several years, when MSDM and DIRCM come online, as well as Peregrine/SACM, AIM-260, and LREW.



I made a probability calculator for this to try and determine how effective a SA/Stealth combination advantage would be.

Consider a 4v4 scenario with F-35s getting the first shots with a single missile hit probability of 20%. They each carry 4 missiles.

The probability of hitting 2 of the enemies (possibly resulting in the remaining 2 to turn and run) is 86%. 48% if hit probability is only 10%. 70% if F-35s carry 6 missiles and single missile probability is just 10%
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wrightwing

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 02:35

boogieman wrote:It's a remote possibility to be sure but not a non existent one. Both Russia and China could theoretically do it by swamping our F35s with superior numbers and pushing to the merge. In both theatres we could easily face a situation where our aircraft and airbases have been degraded by BM and LACM strikes, limiting our sortie generation rates and giving them a numerical advantage in some parts of the theatre. They would be fighting from home after all.

You have to know where your opponent is, to push to the merge. That may work with Super Hornets, but not quite so well with F-22, and F-35A/B/C operating from distributed bases, carriers, etc... Chinese bases would be eating a lot of missiles too, so their sortie generation/numerical superiority would be fleeting. Aside from all that, it's still pretty implausible for a 4th generation jet to not only dodge missiles till within 1 mile of an F-35, AND prevent that F-35 from getting enough separation for an AMRAAM shot. 2 separate issues. Secondly I suspect different tactics would be employed, if Flankers were having that sort of survival rate (they'd have to survive ESSM, SM-2/6, before ever dealing with F-35s.
Last edited by wrightwing on 05 Dec 2019, 07:52, edited 1 time in total.
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boogieman

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 03:18

Yep, all true enough - like I said it's not an overly likely scenario. BUT war is messy - some VHF radars might survive initial bombardment, mistakes might be made and occasional merges might happen. The sort of contingencies we still train in BFM for. Unlikely, but we're still ready for it regardless.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 06:07

wrightwing wrote:
boogieman wrote:It's a remote possibility to be sure but not a non existent one. Both Russia and China could theoretically do it by swamping our F35s with superior numbers and pushing to the merge. In both theatres we could easily face a situation where our aircraft and airbases have been degraded by BM and LACM strikes, limiting our sortie generation rates and giving them a numerical advantage in some parts of the theatre. They would be fighting from home after all.

You have to know where your opponent is, to push to the merge. That may work with Super Hornets, but not quite so well with F-22, and F-35A/B/C operating from distributed bases, carriers, etc... Chinese bases would be eating a lot of missiles too, so their sortie generation/numerical superiority would be fleeting. Aside from all that, it's still pretty implausible for a 4th generation jet to not only dodge missiles till within 1 miles of an F-35, AND prevent that F-35 from getting enough separation for an AMRAAM shot. 2 separate issues. Secondly I suspect different tactics would be employed, if Flankers were having that sort of survival rate (they'd have to survive ESSM, SM-2/6, before ever dealing with F-35s.


I sure wouldn't want to be a Chinese Fighter or Bomber in that environment. Hell, you don't know the location of the F-35's??? Nor, would you know the type or direction of numerous weapons that could be heading your way at any moment! (Amraams, AIM-260's, ESSM's, SM-2/3/6, etc. etc.)
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wrightwing

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 07:57

Exactly. In most cases, they wouldn't know they were under attack until the AMRAAM went active. Good luck trying to merge, when you're not sure who shot you or from where. Its certainly beneficial to train for guns only defensive merges, but those will be the exception and not the rule, under real world conditions.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 08:05

wrightwing wrote:Exactly. In most cases, they wouldn't know they were under attack until the AMRAAM went active. Good luck trying to merge, when you're not sure who shot you or from where. Its certainly beneficial to train for guns only defensive merges, but those will be the exception and not the rule, under real world conditions.



Honestly, many are still living in the past. The future "battle space" is going to be one big network and extremely "lethal". :shock:
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boogieman

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 08:38

wrightwing wrote:Exactly. In most cases, they wouldn't know they were under attack until the AMRAAM went active. Good luck trying to merge, when you're not sure who shot you or from where. Its certainly beneficial to train for guns only defensive merges, but those will be the exception and not the rule, under real world conditions.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I was referring to those rare occasions where the bandits DID have the SA necessary to push to the merge/WVR arena. If they lacked it, the result would of course be a turkey shoot in the F35's favour.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 09:35

:|
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 05 Dec 2019, 09:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post05 Dec 2019, 09:36

boogieman wrote:
wrightwing wrote:Exactly. In most cases, they wouldn't know they were under attack until the AMRAAM went active. Good luck trying to merge, when you're not sure who shot you or from where. Its certainly beneficial to train for guns only defensive merges, but those will be the exception and not the rule, under real world conditions.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I was referring to those rare occasions where the bandits DID have the SA necessary to push to the merge/WVR arena. If they lacked it, the result would of course be a turkey shoot in the F35's favour.



In such rare cases the F-35 is more than capable of handling itself WVR. Having excellent agility and transonic acceleration! It's also worth noting that the F-35's Stealth and Sensor Fusion even help in that environment.


In short the F-35 is a exceptional "dogfighter". (not that it really needs to be) 8)
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