F-35 vs Su-30/35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

bojack_horseman

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 207
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2016, 19:51
  • Location: Ireland

Unread post11 Apr 2017, 11:37

Apparently a video of an SU-35 WVR training

It seemed to stick to its prey like a limpet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZH7e1MLI0k

[YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZH7e1MLI0k[/YouTube]
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3400
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az

Unread post11 Apr 2017, 13:20

You mean that brief period at the end where it saddled up another flanker that was all but non maneuvering? That circle dot was a HUD targeting symbol.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1497
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post11 Apr 2017, 13:44

bojack_horseman wrote:Apparently a video of an SU-35 WVR training

It seemed to stick to its prey like a limpet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZH7e1MLI0k

[YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZH7e1MLI0k[/YouTube]


Bojack, to get that YouTube embedding to work, you leave off everything up to and including the "=" sign. Using braces { instead of brackets [ for illustration:

{YouTube}dZH7e1MLI0k{/YouTube}

To wit:

Take an F-16, add a dollop of A-7, a big gob of F-22, sprinkle on some AV-8B, stir well, then bake. What do you get? An F-35.
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 604
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post11 Apr 2017, 18:09

From the hud, can we see any AOA or G-rating information? That would be useful in calculating a lot of performances.
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3400
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az

Unread post11 Apr 2017, 23:10

gta4 wrote:From the hud, can we see any AOA or G-rating information? That would be useful in calculating a lot of performances.

nope
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline
User avatar

saberrider

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 297
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2016, 10:38

Unread post23 Apr 2017, 05:48

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
gta4 wrote:From the hud, can we see any AOA or G-rating information? That would be useful in calculating a lot of performances.

nope
Why not?
Offline
User avatar

krorvik

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 557
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2015, 15:26

Unread post23 Apr 2017, 07:00

I think he simply said, "no, there is no information".
Offline

brillo

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 15
  • Joined: 04 Jul 2015, 14:59

Unread post10 Jun 2017, 14:32

From a kinematic perspective, wouldn't an F-35A with the upgraded engine (and thrust) with a 50-70% fuel load and 6 missile load out be able to keep up in a merge given its power to weight and other aero characteristics? I realize the SU-35 is faster at the top end but that's not going to be helpful in a knife fight correct?

Seems like you could have the plans running CAP with drop tanks allowing good range and the ability to drop and go stealth if necessary to take on fighters either BVR or WVR with good Kinematic performance.

I know that the f-35 was designed as a strike first fighter with BVR combat as its strong suit but given the lack of f-22s it seems like a strategy/loadout for air superiority is almost necessary given the volume of F-35s in the fleet. do SU-30/35/ in a combat configuration really have that much of a maneuverability edge?
Offline

madrat

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1852
  • Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 03:12

Unread post10 Jun 2017, 14:52

That assumes visual contact. F-35 pilots don't go to a merge. Doh
Offline

juretrn

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 290
  • Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 01:09
  • Location: Slovenia

Unread post10 Jun 2017, 15:05

The F-35 can turn with the rest of them:

The lack of thrust vectoring might mean a smaller repertoir of high aoa, low speed maneuvers, but those are mostly cheap party tricks.
Having your weapons stored internally also can't hurt at all (less drag).
Kinematically it's unlikely the Su-35 would have much of an advantage, the F-35's engine is underappreciated.
This forum's own sprstdlyscottsmn also did a realistic (as much as that is possible with the avaliable data on those aircraft) fight scenario:

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=25735&hilit=operational+comparison
Russia stronk
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 604
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post11 Jun 2017, 15:56

This is from one of my previous post:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52955

Title: M1.2 supercruise + DAS = invincible against Su-35

All online military enthusiasm made combat simulations of F-35 vs Su-35, such as the following, make one critical mistake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-M9jA1INk8&t=3s

They assume that the military speed of F-35 is very slow and thus could not outrun Su-35, making the hit-and-run tactic useless.

Given the most updated military speed of the F-35 is Mach 1.2, Su-35(with AA loadout) needs briefly engage in A/B to catch up with F-35. Making its infrared signature more obvious. Su-35 could be easily picked up with DAS.

The lock-on-after-launch (LOAL) capability of aim-9x block2 allows it to turn 180 deg (a reversal) and shoot bandits in the rear hemisphere of F-35. There is one more thing to notice: when a missile is launched to tail-chase a bandit, its effective range is greatly reduced. Even R-77 has a range of 5 km at low altitude:

Image

(This is the case when the laucher and the target are all @ M0.9. if both are at higher speed the range will shrink more)

However, when a missile turns 180 deg and engage a chasing bandit, it actually engages the target head-on, resulting in extended range. If my memory serves, aim-9x block2 successfully engaged a target 10 miles (16 km) away and behind the launcher, in early 2013.

In this scenario, aim-9x block2 out-ranges R-77. That is a fun fact.

So when a F-35 uses the hit-and -run tactic against two Su-35s, the chasing Su-35s could be picked up easily with DAS far away, and will be engaged by aim-9x block2 well beyond the range of R-77.

With supercuise+DAS, one F-35 could solo at least two Su-35s without exposing itself to any danger.
Offline
User avatar

playloud

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 220
  • Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 04:07

Unread post11 Jun 2017, 19:24

gta4 wrote:This is from one of my previous post:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52955

Title: M1.2 supercruise + DAS = invincible against Su-35

All online military enthusiasm made combat simulations of F-35 vs Su-35, such as the following, make one critical mistake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-M9jA1INk8&t=3s

They assume that the military speed of F-35 is very slow and thus could not outrun Su-35, making the hit-and-run tactic useless.

Given the most updated military speed of the F-35 is Mach 1.2, Su-35(with AA loadout) needs briefly engage in A/B to catch up with F-35. Making its infrared signature more obvious. Su-35 could be easily picked up with DAS.

The lock-on-after-launch (LOAL) capability of aim-9x block2 allows it to turn 180 deg (a reversal) and shoot bandits in the rear hemisphere of F-35. There is one more thing to notice: when a missile is launched to tail-chase a bandit, its effective range is greatly reduced. Even R-77 has a range of 5 km at low altitude:

Image

(This is the case when the laucher and the target are all @ M0.9. if both are at higher speed the range will shrink more)

However, when a missile turns 180 deg and engage a chasing bandit, it actually engages the target head-on, resulting in extended range. If my memory serves, aim-9x block2 successfully engaged a target 10 miles (16 km) away and behind the launcher, in early 2013.

In this scenario, aim-9x block2 out-ranges R-77. That is a fun fact.

So when a F-35 uses the hit-and -run tactic against two Su-35s, the chasing Su-35s could be picked up easily with DAS far away, and will be engaged by aim-9x block2 well beyond the range of R-77.

With supercuise+DAS, one F-35 could solo at least two Su-35s without exposing itself to any danger.

When I spoke with an F-35 pilot at Nellis last year, he denied the M1.2 supercruise claim. He said it could hold just below M1.0, (which I took to mean .98-.99.)
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 604
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post11 Jun 2017, 21:39

playloud wrote:
gta4 wrote:This is from one of my previous post:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52955

Title: M1.2 supercruise + DAS = invincible against Su-35

All online military enthusiasm made combat simulations of F-35 vs Su-35, such as the following, make one critical mistake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-M9jA1INk8&t=3s

They assume that the military speed of F-35 is very slow and thus could not outrun Su-35, making the hit-and-run tactic useless.

Given the most updated military speed of the F-35 is Mach 1.2, Su-35(with AA loadout) needs briefly engage in A/B to catch up with F-35. Making its infrared signature more obvious. Su-35 could be easily picked up with DAS.

The lock-on-after-launch (LOAL) capability of aim-9x block2 allows it to turn 180 deg (a reversal) and shoot bandits in the rear hemisphere of F-35. There is one more thing to notice: when a missile is launched to tail-chase a bandit, its effective range is greatly reduced. Even R-77 has a range of 5 km at low altitude:

Image

(This is the case when the laucher and the target are all @ M0.9. if both are at higher speed the range will shrink more)

However, when a missile turns 180 deg and engage a chasing bandit, it actually engages the target head-on, resulting in extended range. If my memory serves, aim-9x block2 successfully engaged a target 10 miles (16 km) away and behind the launcher, in early 2013.

In this scenario, aim-9x block2 out-ranges R-77. That is a fun fact.

So when a F-35 uses the hit-and -run tactic against two Su-35s, the chasing Su-35s could be picked up easily with DAS far away, and will be engaged by aim-9x block2 well beyond the range of R-77.

With supercuise+DAS, one F-35 could solo at least two Su-35s without exposing itself to any danger.

When I spoke with an F-35 pilot at Nellis last year, he denied the M1.2 supercruise claim. He said it could hold just below M1.0, (which I took to mean .98-.99.)


Sure, but the difference between M0.99 and M1.2 is not big enough to negate my overall analysis.
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 604
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post11 Jun 2017, 21:44

Another post that may be related:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52510&start=75

All major aversaries are underperformed in certain aspects:

Su-27/30 (non-TVC version): does not have the subsobnic energy recovery like F-35 (20%+ gap); does not have any approach to counter F-35's pedal turn (28deg/sec sustained); does not have the high roll rate like F-35 (exceeding 300deg/sec).

Su-30 (with TVC): does not have the subsobnic energy recovery like F-35 (20%+ gap); may have approaches to counter F-35's pedal turn when TVC is engaged, but still could not acheive the nose-pointing rate in a controlled spin (F-35 could acheive 90+deg/sec in a controlled spin); does not have the high roll rate like F-35 (exceeding 300deg/sec).

Su-35 (with TVC): similar to the previous case, except that subsonic acceleration is closer to F-35.

T-50: similar to the Su-35 case, and bear in mind that T-50 is a prototype with insufficient avionics and structure strengh. T-50 may subject to weight increase and maneuverability reduction when in mass production.

J-31: the worst performer, needless to say.

J-20: similar to the Su-27/30 (non-TVC version) case.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2360
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post12 Jun 2017, 08:41

gta4 wrote:All online military enthusiasm made combat simulations of F-35 vs Su-35, such as the following, make one critical mistake:

They assume that the military speed of F-35 is very slow and thus could not outrun Su-35, making the hit-and-run tactic useless.

Given the most updated military speed of the F-35 is Mach 1.2, Su-35(with AA loadout) needs briefly engage in A/B to catch up with F-35. Making its infrared signature more obvious. Su-35 could be easily picked up with DAS..


I think there are several problems with the whole scenario.

1. Why is there only one F-35 in the area all alone? That doesn't make sense to me at all.

2. If F-35 is running straight away, why not use AB for increased speed? Sure it increases thermal signature, but that's not much of a problem when running away.

3. If a single F-35 uses hit-and-run tactics, it doesn't need much headstart that Su-35 will never catch it in combat configuration, even fairly light one. F-35 can go Mach 1.6 with full internal weapons load whereas Su-35 is likely not much faster with weapons attached.

4. Su-35s would be perfectly concious that there might well be other F-35s in the area and this smells awefully lot like ambush. A single F-35 running away? I think Su-35s pilots are taking a very big risk in trying to catch it while having zero knowledge about the real situation. Stealth gives enemy a lot of uncertainty that could be very beneficial in this situation.

5. How is Su-35 going to keep tracking the F-35? We have heard that F-15s with latest AESA radars have been unable to track F-35s. How is Su-35 with mediocre PESA radar going to do it? With 1970s technology IRST system? In Red Flag handful of F-35s got killed only when they were WVR.

I think the whole scenario is very artificial and might very well never happen as it involves so many ifs. Of course it might happen once in very isolated incident, but so what? How about if there are two F-35s defending and one Su-35 tries to do hit-and-run attack against say tanker or AWACS. I'd say it likely never gets to launch a missile before being shot down without having a clue what happened.
PreviousNext

Return to F-35 versus XYZ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests