F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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Viperalltheway

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Unread post13 Mar 2010, 23:09

I had already seent hat video. It's impossible that it's 36nm.
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BDF

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Unread post14 Mar 2010, 00:58

The Sniper is a mid-wave FLIR which isn’t great for long range detection of airborne threats which is why most new generation IRST such as PIRATE and the AAS-42 are dual band detectors in both mid and long wave bands. I’m also skeptical that this 36nm video of Seattle is analogous to the A-A performance of package, particularly against threats employing IR signature management techniques.

I do agree that the F-22 should get an IRST as part of a future spiral upgrade, preferably in the 2015 upgrade cycle (3.3 perhaps?).
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munny

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Unread post16 Mar 2010, 05:56

I loved this comment regarding the F22 by one of our boys...

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."



So does that mean that aim9x's as well as 120's simply would not work on it? If that's the case then F35 is toast in any scenario. DAS is just a 360 degree set of eyes effectively...and they don't help unless they are being used to guide the missile in all the way (or is that also what EODAS does?)
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Unread post16 Mar 2010, 12:11

munny wrote:I loved this comment regarding the F22 by one of our boys...

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."



So does that mean that aim9x's as well as 120's simply would not work on it? If that's the case then F35 is toast in any scenario. DAS is just a 360 degree set of eyes effectively...and they don't help unless they are being used to guide the missile in all the way (or is that also what EODAS does?)


DAS=EODAS(Electro optical distributed aperture system)

With the AIM-9X Block II(LOAL) combined with DAS, a Raptor pilot wouldn't want to get too close. Additionally, the F-35's radar would do better than earlier radars against a Raptor. That being said, if the Raptor pilot is smart, he'll fly his jet to his advantages, while minimizing the advantages of his opponent.
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geogen

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Unread post16 Mar 2010, 13:08

The above speculated encounter must take into account the distinct possibility that actual 'targeting' capabilities, via EODAS, might not be software-enabled until block IV? (Say IOC by 2018?)

Often it is claimed that the avionics 'will' be able to do this and that, but in truth the full extent of JSF capabilities, as with F-22, are also dependent of the actual increment or block development capability upgrades. In this above scenario to work in say 2016 block III IOC, it must be assumed only that indeed software enabled EODAS + weapon computer integration would include such weapons cueing ability then. But as the software code is expanded to include more full sensor integration and greater systems exploitation over the course of spiral F-35 block development, e.g., block IV and especially block V and then block VI (block VI - advertised in the Norwegian doc to include all-aspect passive detection and defense response integration, e.g.), then F-35 will be able to take more advantage over its envisioned capabilities accordingly.

So in equal minded speculation, it's also conceivable regarding above scenario that by the time F-35 is cueing internally loaded -9X II (if that loadout is ever a reality) or even AMRAAM via EODAS, F-22 might itself be upgraded in Increment 3.3 ability to cue passively in an IR aspect as well?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post16 Mar 2010, 20:32

IIRC, Energo (published here) did an interview and they clearly stated that the EODAS and the EOTS (in A2A mode) were fully integrated in Blk3.
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FlightDreamz

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Unread post18 Mar 2010, 03:22

Geogen
So in equal minded speculation, it's also conceivable regarding above scenario that by the time F-35 is cueing internally loaded -9X II (if that loadout is ever a reality) or even AMRAAM via EODAS, F-22 might itself be upgraded in Increment 3.3 ability to cue passively in an IR aspect as well?

One could always hope that the powers that be will continue to take care of the F-22 Raptors after such a short production run! By all rights there should be some "cross pollination" between the two airframes.
A fighter without a gun . . . is like an airplane without a wing.— Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF.
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thestealthfighterguy

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Unread post05 Oct 2011, 19:25

This thread is great! I know it's a year old but had to say something. I love the nobody see anything post. Both these aircraft are beasts of mosty unknown abillity. Raptors are already fighting raptors, so at some point F-35 will fight Raptor. We don't know what they can really do. It's classified. IMO the F-35 will compete the bombing run 99% of the time if it work as advertised. Although at some point someone will see someone. If you look at the F-117 and B-2 day time is the most likely time for someone to get lucky and spot someone. F-35 will get through in less someone gets lucky. IMO if the Raptor is not upgraded in the next 5 to 10 years F-35 my win with tech alone. Raptor must be upgreaded with everything we have.

Another thing, Don't listen to all the yahoo's saying f-22 can see F-35 at this range and F-35 can see F-22 at that range. It's a bunch of B.S. If someone in here is in the "KNOW" about this they wouldn't dare to open his or her mouth. If you think this is a stupid topic your wrong. We will not get the chance to test our aircraft agenst the T-50 in less India brings one to red flag in say 2020. This may not happen for many year because I don't think they will want to risk getting spanked in less they think they can win. That's what they though when they brought Su-30 to red flag. They thought they would win. They were wrong. All this will help use when J-20 comes out.
India at red flag part one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKEa-R37PeU
part twohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfXBoeV86Yo&feature=related
India not happyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNie0HzPmaY&feature=related
My two cents TSFG
Last edited by thestealthfighterguy on 06 Oct 2011, 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
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southernphantom

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Unread post05 Oct 2011, 21:17

Inless is not a word. Your is not the proper contraction for "you are". I generally agree with you, but improvements to spelling and grammar really help people take you seriously. As for the radar detection ranges, I believe at least part of that is based on their own analysis. You can get an RCS figure and a radar range figure, apply a basic but sound formula, and come out with the approximate detection range of X vs. Y.
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alloycowboy

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Unread post06 Oct 2011, 04:14

The problem with the F-35 vs F-22 debate is people are pitting aircraft vs aircraft which is the wrong way to look at it. A better way to look at it is what can the Air force get for $150 million dollars which is the fly way cost of an F-22 in 2009 dollars. If cost projections hold the USAF should be able to get two F-35's for the price of one F-22. So the question that should be asked is one F-22 better then two F-35's and the answer to that question is a unequivocal no! In the two on one ACM engagement the F-22 gets pummeled by the F-35's advanced sensors and data networking. While the F-22 has more speed and agility it is not enough of an edge to defeat two F-35's in a ACM dog fight as the F-22 can only engage one F-35 at a time leaving its hind quarter badly exposed to the other F-35 which is the whole methodology for flying aircraft in pairs.
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popcorn

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Unread post06 Oct 2011, 11:15

alloycowboy wrote:.... which is the whole methodology for flying aircraft in pairs.


One wonders though what changes in tactics have been developed since the F-22 entered squadron service and pilots got to explore the advanced capabilities of their new mounts. With superior 360-deg SA afforded to the F-35 pilot will further stretch the tactical envelope. The god's-eye view provided by the panoramic display more than makes up for a 2nd set of wingman's eyeballs. It would be fascinating to learn more about how they are rewriting the rules of air combat but I suspect we will just have to settle for tantalizing glimpses and lots of speculation.
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Unread post06 Oct 2011, 15:15

popcorn wrote:
alloycowboy wrote:.... which is the whole methodology for flying aircraft in pairs.


One wonders though what changes in tactics have been developed since the F-22 entered squadron service and pilots got to explore the advanced capabilities of their new mounts. With superior 360-deg SA afforded to the F-35 pilot will further stretch the tactical envelope. The god's-eye view provided by the panoramic display more than makes up for a 2nd set of wingman's eyeballs. It would be fascinating to learn more about how they are rewriting the rules of air combat but I suspect we will just have to settle for tantalizing glimpses and lots of speculation.


@ Popcorn..... I would like to be a fly on the wall when the F-35 goes up against the F-22 for the first time at Nellis AFB. They might have go back to shooting pistols from the cockpit ala WWI if the radars can't get a lock.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post06 Oct 2011, 17:48

radars can't get a lock.
Don't forget F-35's EOTS and EODAS. It does not need radar (although it does make it a lot easier).
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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thestealthfighterguy

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Unread post06 Oct 2011, 18:45

southernphantom wrote:Inless is not a word. Your is not the proper contraction for "you are". I generally agree with you, but improvements to spelling and grammar really help people take you seriously. As for the radar detection ranges, I believe at least part of that is based on their own analysis. You can get an RCS figure and a radar range figure, apply a basic but sound formula, and come out with the approximate detection range of X vs. Y.


I'm a mathematician and half blind. Can't see out of one eye. I have dyslexia and ADHD. Never could type or spell worth beans. What do you do? You can ignoire me if you want. Sorry. I'm what I am. FUBAR

As for your formula... your numbers are not real. They're classified.
Stealth, so the bad guys don't know your there till they start blowing up. Have a nice day!
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popcorn

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Unread post07 Oct 2011, 03:46

SpudmanWP wrote:
radars can't get a lock.
Don't forget F-35's EOTS and EODAS. It does not need radar (although it does make it a lot easier).

With sensor-fused data from onboard and offboard sensors, having a traditional wingman seems almost superfluous or even wasteful of resources. Its possibly more efficient to spread a/c as widely apart BVR butstill able to provide mutual support should the need arise.Perhaps this may be dictated by the radius of the SAbubble created by EODAS?
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