F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 04:09
by vegasdave901
So let's say it's a near-future Red Flag and F-22's are on the red team and F-35's are on the blue. F-35's are tasked to bomb a target deep in red territory and the F-22's are tasked to stop them. Who wins?

RE: F-35 v. F-22

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 04:43
by spazsinbad
Who cares if they are both on the same side in reality. You would have to spell out the training / exercise environment to make your scenario worthwhile.

RE: F-35 v. F-22

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 05:21
by SpudmanWP
That depends on what fighter the F-22s are emulating and what radar modes they are allowed to use.

RE: F-35 v. F-22

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 08:55
by discofishing
Lets just throw out the bombing thing for the F-35 since it can bomb the target and still get shot down "notionally" when egressing. We'll say they are both playing the air defense roll. I'd bet on the F-35 because it has the DAS, which looks to be way more effective than the RWR/MLD stuff the F-22 has. I'm going to assume they won't be able to find each other at distance with their radars. I figure the F-35 will passively pickup the F-22 before it can find the F-35. As far as I know, once the F-35 finds the F-22, the pilot just needs to look at it and fire a missile. If this whole thing is taking place at night, then I'd say the F-35 has an extra advantage. That EODAS looks like an amazing piece of equipment. I think it makes all the difference in this situation. If this was 15 years in the future, then maybe the outcome would be a little different. The F-22 will probably see a bunch of upgrades in the future.

RE: F-35 v. F-22

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 10:24
by geogen
Probably depends on the block and Increment, true..

Out of curiosity, the eventual, actual effective EODAS tracking and ID range is classified? Is there a non-classified ballpark estimated range say, vs a head-on fighter? It's no EOTS, of course, but would EODAS forinstance be able to track and ID an aircraft coming head-on to an F-35 (from whichever angle of the F-35) 40km out? Or is that overstated or even know (maybe its a lot less)? Also, can a block III F-35's EODAS be used to 'cue' an AMRAAM passively? I know there are some unknowns as far as which level of 'sensor fusion' will exist in block III, vs block IV sensor fusion upgrade, vs suggested block V sensor fusion upgrade, etc... but it would be interesting to know how much the actual block III fusion (in this near-future example) and weapons management can be done automatically, via fusion. Also, one would have to contemplate the loadouts in this scenario too? Block III would notionally have 4x internal AMRAAM for USAF variant, but it's block III AIM-9X would have to be mounted under-wing? That could entail a minor degree change in the equation given? Or would BVR be the only tactic in the above example.. Oh yeah, I would like to support potential of an Increment 3.1 employing powered MALD decoys (or even jammer variants)?? Maybe not.

Regardless, I'd agree with disco, that perhaps by around 2019, an increment 3.3 would include the AIRST type capability along with possible side arrays, as well as upgraded mini-DAS sys. Perhaps then, vs notional block V with potential DIRCM and full sensor fusion + battle management code (especially effective for WVR?), the BVR advantage might shift more decisively to the Increment 3.3 frame.

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 13:03
by StolichnayaStrafer
It is funny that this thread just came up. Earlier this week I was thinking that with all of the PAK FA hype going around, maybe some day the F-22 may get used as an Aggressor! They should give them a couple of early models painted in PAK FA camo. :lol:

However, I would bet that we will see some testing between the two of them in the not so distant future. A good reason would be to see how any export F-35s would fare against the F-22. Not meaning any insult, but sometimes todays allies can possibly be tomorrows opponents. :idea:

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 13:22
by FlightDreamz
My money is on the F-22 for speed and altitude advantages, plus the F-22 should be stealthier than the F-35 (my :2c:)
StolichnayaStrafer
Earlier this week I was thinking that with all of the PAK FA hype going around, maybe some day the F-22 may get used as an Aggressor!

I'm not sure there are enough F-22's to go around, but that is an interesting idea. I'm fairly certain the Air Force will explore testing the F-22s further against different aircraft. So once the F-35's production line starts up, who knows?

Re: RE: F-35 v. F-22

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 20:48
by SpudmanWP
geogen wrote:Probably depends on the block and Increment, true..

Out of curiosity, the eventual, actual effective EODAS tracking and ID range is classified? Is there a non-classified ballpark estimated range say, vs a head-on fighter? It's no EOTS, of course, but would EODAS forinstance be able to track and ID an aircraft coming head-on to an F-35 (from whichever angle of the F-35) 40km out?


Since the EODAS has no optical zoom, I would say 40km is pushing it for an ID, while a track at that distance is possible.

geogen wrote:Or is that overstated or even know (maybe its a lot less)? Also, can a block III F-35's EODAS be used to 'cue' an AMRAAM passively?


According to this March'09, EODAS can que AAMs.

Image

geogen wrote:I know there are some unknowns as far as which level of 'sensor fusion' will exist in block III, vs block IV sensor fusion upgrade, vs suggested block V sensor fusion upgrade, etc... but it would be interesting to know how much the actual block III fusion (in this near-future example) and weapons management can be done automatically, via fusion.


This interview makes it clear that EOTS and EODAS will be in Block 3.

With regards to aircraft capabilities, Lockheed Martin confirms that the Infrared Search and Track (IRST) capability is slated for Block 3, the first fully mission capable F-35. "It's a fully functional capability", says Lockheed Martins's Vice President for Business Development Steve O'Bryan. "It includes sensor fused input from both the Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System and Electo-Optical Targeting System sensors", often just called the EODAS and EOTS units. Block 3 will focus on air-to-air capability while block 5 will expand with air-to-surface modes.


geogen wrote:Also, one would have to contemplate the loadouts in this scenario too? Block III would notionally have 4x internal AMRAAM for USAF variant, but it's block III AIM-9X would have to be mounted under-wing? That could entail a minor degree change in the equation given? Or would BVR be the only tactic in the above example.. Oh yeah, I would like to support potential of an Increment 3.1 employing powered MALD decoys (or even jammer variants)?? Maybe not.


The AIM-120D has very good HOBS and GPS based INS functions. It will be used for BVR and WVR engagements without any problems.

geogen wrote:Regardless, I'd agree with disco, that perhaps by around 2019, an increment 3.3 would include the AIRST type capability along with possible side arrays, as well as upgraded mini-DAS sys. Perhaps then, vs notional block V with potential DIRCM and full sensor fusion + battle management code (especially effective for WVR?), the BVR advantage might shift more decisively to the Increment 3.3 frame.


I agree, upgrade the F-22s to their fullest.

RE: Re: RE: F-35 v. F-22

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 22:40
by discofishing
I'm thinking I should take another look at my claim on how the F-35 would win against the F-22 because it has EODAS and the F-22 doesn't. I was thinking basically one F-22 versus one F-35. That's kind of too narrow.

If the scenario was force on force (we'll call it 8 vs 8 ) then maybe the F-22 would have an advantage (aside from altitude and speed). Although the F-35 seems to clearly have better EO sensors, one thing it might not have is better RF/EM sensors. Obviously the F-35s will be linked together transmitting data as a normal transparent function of the avionics systems. What if this stuff was picked up by the F-22s? The F-22 is said to have a SIGINT capability close to the RC-135 Rivet Joint. Perhaps the F-35s could be located on their data emissions alone. Or you could separate the F-22s in to groups. Only a couple would have their radars on full blast. Obviously the radiation propagated from such a powerful radar would hit the F-35, but be absorbed and deflected away from the source so the Raptors with their radars on won't see anything. What if there was another flight of F-22s (at a good distance away from the birds using their radars) in passive mode; could they pick up the emissions deflected from the F-35s? Maybe this is how the Raptors could get the jump the Lightnings. They would use their datalinks and passive sensors to triangulate the exact positions of their adversaries. Those are my thoughts. It's really a tough call.

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2010, 23:51
by vegasdave901
No! Don't throw out the bombing! :D That's kind of why I'm curious and asked. My scenario is basically asking about what happens when all the players are stealthy. It seems that air superiority would lose out and the bombers would win. It's seems like we get thrown back in time to WWI and WWII when fighters used to go up enmass and rely on their better than 20/20 vision to find the enemy and if they didn't then the bombers got to do their job.
Also, I think if the F-35's detected the F-22's first they would probably use that info to avoid and skirt around them, at least until the bombing mission was done maybe trying to keep track of them for a fight on the way out, fuel permitting. I figure even if you've got the drop on them, why risk getting one or two only to have even more figure out where you are and drop the hammer on you while your heavy and perhaps chasing you away from the objective.

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2010, 03:08
by popcorn
Based on the comments, its remarkable that an aircraft primarily built to be a bombtruck can compare so favorably with the mighty Raptor in A2A. Its even more remarkable considering the F-35's detractors who don't give it a chance going up against less capable competition than the F-22. Someone has to be right, right?

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2010, 05:06
by SpudmanWP
You are espousing a popular misconception. The F-35 was NOT "primarily built to be a bombtruck". For the US, many of the Air Superiority wings will be F-35s. For virtually every partner nation, it will be their primary Air Superiority asset.

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2010, 05:15
by LMAggie
Interesting question. The obvious question is, how good is the F-22 radar compared to the F-35 signature? If the F-22 can't see the F-35....the ground target will be eliminated. And like others have said....it depends on the block/future capability of each A/C.

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2010, 06:14
by geogen
Thanks for reply Spud.

RE: EODAS cued AAM, yes, I was aware of the claims made for short-range (ASRAAM/9x) cued weapons (with 9x being slung underwing on block III F-35). My question however was if AMRAAM could be cued by EODAS at short range as that was one example given in this F-22 vs F-35 scenario. However, as you speculated (as with me too), the actual ID/targeting range of EODAS against a head on fighter is probably not something alone which can be counted on as game-changer vs an F-22 homing in?

Re: second point. I conceded your evidenced point about block III in deed having some IRST functions (vs block IV's apparent ground-relevant IRST mode). Point taken. I guess my question was more oriented as to the 'unknowns' of how much actual A2A sensor 'FUSION' would be available on block III in the above hypothesized F-22 vs F-35 block III scenario, vs the Fusion available on a block IV and then block V respectively.

Re: 120D and WVR capacity (USAF block III limited to internal AMRAAM)... sure. But by then the higher maneuvering munition and therefore more specialized/capable round would be a HOBS dogfight missile?

BTW, I left a rather hard response back on Erics blog to one of the threads. As always, please take no offense on any hard style I may take with you in particular, as it is raw competition I guess for me sometimes (like a Hockey match) and nothing against you in kind, whom I respect. (and I know you have hard shots waiting, to take right back). Cheers-

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2010, 06:22
by popcorn
SpudmanWP wrote:You are espousing a popular misconception. The F-35 was NOT "primarily built to be a bombtruck". For the US, many of the Air Superiority wings will be F-35s. For virtually every partner nation, it will be their primary Air Superiority asset.

I don't use the term "bombtruck" as a criticism of the platform.. one only has to list the weapons that are planned to be certified on the F-35 to see what its primary focus will be. No doubt it will be a mean opponent in A2A, probably second only to the F-22 for the foreseeable future.

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2010, 07:25
by SpudmanWP
Geogen,
Part of the "magic" of sensor fusion is that any weapon can be targeted using the data from any sensor, as long as the target is within range. In other words, if teh EODAS can see it then the AMRAAM can shoot it.

Yes, there are a great number of unknowns when it comes to the details of Blk 3/4/5 etc. We will have to wait and see.

The 120 is maneuverable enough. It has a higher wing area than an ASRAAM and longer range (longer motor burn) than either the the 9X or the ASRAAM. While the 9x can turn tighter, the 120 has more than enough time to take a slightly wider turn. btw, A new motor for the 120 is in the works.

re:ELP's blog... one thing I do not like on his blog is the ability to reply out-of-order. I have to scan the entire thread to see replies.

popcorn,
The reason that you see such large numbers of A2G munitions is that there are only 2 AAMs used in frontline US fighters, the AIM-120 and the AIM-9, both of which will be in Block 3 along with ASRAAM. These are the same missiles used on the F-22. Actually by Block 5, the F-35 will have a greater AAM variety than any US fighter (AIM-120, AIM-9, ASRAAM, and Meteor).

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2010, 09:56
by popcorn
True, the F-35 will eventually carry non-US AAMs. Still, there's a reason why the list of A2G munitions is longer. Anyway, I'm very happy to call the F-35 a multi-role strikefighter.

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2010, 08:41
by thegreekness
i heard that the US required that the JSF be slightly inferior to the F-22, seeing as the JSF will go to other countries - makes sense

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2010, 09:00
by Prinz_Eugn
thegreekness wrote:i heard that the US required that the JSF be slightly inferior to the F-22, seeing as the JSF will go to other countries - makes sense


Er, not really. It has different requirements. Essentially, the F-22 was built to be the best fighter in the air, with a secondary emphasis on ease of maintenance, cost of operation, air-to-ground capability, and so on. The F-35 was designed for ease of maintenance, low operating cost (as much as you can and still be fairly stealthy), and taking out targets on the ground.

"Inferior," relative to shooting down other airplanes- sure. The F-22 is supposed to be a death machine in the air-to-air arena. But compared to being cheap enough to operate in effective numbers by our allies? Not so much. They both have their own realms, so directly comparing them is kind of missing the point.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2010, 11:25
by henshao
Guys.

The AMRAAM is radar guided. It's not hitting a Raptor.

In fact, perhaps the worst thing the F-35 driver can do is launch a missile, the Raptor will sense it and it will give up the 35's position. Only the AIM-9X stands a shot at bringing a Raptor down, but darn, can't carry those in the bays. (Hope he doesn't see me with these missiles hanging off my wings.)

This means that it will inevitably come down to a gunfight, and the Raptor will once again be limited in kill count only by the amount of ammo it can carry. Though, the Raptor CAN carry 'winders stealthily.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2010, 18:13
by SpudmanWP
henshao,

Your falling into a "stealth means it's invisible" trap. A VLO airframe only means that the AMRAAM has to get closer in order to maintain a lock.

The F-35 will be carrying the AIM-120D which had some major upgrades to it's INS. It is GPS based. This allows the F-35 to update, in a true 3D environment, the position of the F-22 before the AMRAAM has to go active.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2010, 18:41
by henshao
I just don't think the teensy little radar on the AMRAAM will be able to detect an F-22 at any relevant distance. The slammer has a what, 10 mile 'bucket' against your average fighter? Won't this be reduced to less than a mile, if the Slammer's radar is capable of discriminating an object with such a small RCS at all? And don't turn on the radar before you're within tracking distance.

I admit, there's a window in which you might be able to get one to a Raptor unnoticed from BVR, but once again your sensors would have to know exactly where he was from quite a ways if you're to launch undetected by the Raptor's missile approach warning system. At that point, within visual range, presumably, you're precisely where you don't want to be against the faster and more agile F-22.

Perhaps one F-35, if it could find the Raptor, could shadow him and guide his wingman's slammer from the belly of the beast, six o'clock and under the Raptor. Although it has been suggested in this thread that the Raptor would be better at finding the F-35's, with it's SIGINT capabilities, than the other way around.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2010, 18:58
by SpudmanWP
Remember too that the AMRRAM flys an arching profile and would likely come down from above the F-22 (assuming a head on shot) and have a much better view (as the RCS is larger) of the F-22.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2010, 19:39
by henshao
Now, I might be mistaken, and if I am I apologize. But isn't it true that F-15's are unable to track a Raptor with radar, even within visual range? So a Slammer is going to pull this off? I'm not ruling out that you could guide one into an unsuspecting Raptor the way earlier SAMs were guided, that is, command-link only. But somehow I think the GPS/INS update datalink alone would not allow you to hit a jinking Raptor, I could be wrong.

I think the F-35 don't want nothin' to do with the Raptor. You know the man flying it is no lightweight, his jet can run yours down, it can put the gunsight on you after only a few turns, and it doesn't really need to because an IR imaging sidewinder he's carrying stealthily will probably find you. Normally in these X v Y discussions the two jets handle so similarly that it's primarily pilot skill that will determine who wins the dogfight, but a Raptor will truly fly rings around an F-35.

Don't know if anyone here has played Starfleet command, but the F-35 is like a Starfleet ship that has awful maneuverability compared to the Klingons or Romulans. It relies on being able to kill you at any azimuth (phasers and torpedoes covering all arcs) as opposed to pointing it's nose.

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2010, 11:40
by wrightwing
henshao wrote:Now, I might be mistaken, and if I am I apologize. But isn't it true that F-15's are unable to track a Raptor with radar, even within visual range? So a Slammer is going to pull this off? I'm not ruling out that you could guide one into an unsuspecting Raptor the way earlier SAMs were guided, that is, command-link only. But somehow I think the GPS/INS update datalink alone would not allow you to hit a jinking Raptor, I could be wrong.

I think the F-35 don't want nothin' to do with the Raptor. You know the man flying it is no lightweight, his jet can run yours down, it can put the gunsight on you after only a few turns, and it doesn't really need to because an IR imaging sidewinder he's carrying stealthily will probably find you. Normally in these X v Y discussions the two jets handle so similarly that it's primarily pilot skill that will determine who wins the dogfight, but a Raptor will truly fly rings around an F-35.

Don't know if anyone here has played Starfleet command, but the F-35 is like a Starfleet ship that has awful maneuverability compared to the Klingons or Romulans. It relies on being able to kill you at any azimuth (phasers and torpedoes covering all arcs) as opposed to pointing it's nose.


Actually, the F-35 is supposed to have very good agility(better than F-16s and F-18s), so even if it's not quite as good as other aircraft, when you look at the cumulative capabilities, it's by no means a sitting duck. Now back to the Raptor. The Raptor isn't immune to radar guided weapons, but........due to it's low RCS, high speed, and high agility, it is likely to be able to break a lock much easier than other aircraft in the same situation, and get out of the kill zone.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2010, 04:18
by FlightDreamz
henshao
Don't know if anyone here has played Starfleet command, but the F-35 is like a Starfleet ship that has awful maneuverability compared to the Klingons or Romulans. It relies on being able to kill you at any azimuth (phasers and torpedoes covering all arcs) as opposed to pointing it's nose.

Love the Starfleet Command reference (haven't played that game in a looong time)! Thats the most interesting analogy for the F-35's DAS (distributed aperture system) thermal imaging system I've heard yet! :thumb: Even though its too soon to tell this early in the F-35's test schedule, I tend to agree the F-22 would rule the sky. Mostly because like wrightwing said with the F-22's superior stealth, higher speed, and agility would make it very difficult for an opponent to successfully target it.
:cheers:

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2010, 10:57
by Fox1
In purely the air to air arena, I don't think the F-35 stacks up very favorably against the F-22. The F-22 has a serious BVR advantage because it has a larger, more powerful radar than the F-35. And it also has a much smaller frontal RCS and better all aspect RCS than the F-35. The F-22 likely gets "first look, first shoot" in most circumstances. It also has much better performance than the F-35 will have. With the ability to fly so fast and so high, it will largely be able to dictate the terms of the engagement. And if a Raptor driver were to find himself in a position where he perceives he's at a disadvantage, he has the speed to escape and, if he wishes, later re-engage. The F-35 can't run from the F-22. The one advantage the F-35 driver would currently hold in WVR fights is the ability to employ the AIM-9X via use of the JHMCS. But surviving long enough to reach the merge and have the chance to employ it against an aircraft with the Raptor's performance and capabilities is going to be problematic to say the least.

Folks, the F-35 is going to be a good aircraft. But trying to envision it as being equal to or better than the Raptor in the A2A arena just isn't realistic. The F-22 was designed with the intent to dominate anything else that gets airborne. Going A2A with other aircraft is the F-22's bread and butter mission. And in that regard, it is unequaled. The F-35, as a multi-role platform with a design that places equal emphasis on A2A and A2G will be a good performer. But the F-22 is a dedicated air superiority fighter. And in that role, the F-22 is simply the superior performer. But as long as the F-35 can remain "second best" in the air, then that will be good enough, since nobody else is employing anything currently or planned that can seriously compete with the F-22. Outside mock engagements, the F-35 isn't going to have to face the F-22 on the battlefield, which makes the whole debate kind of pointless anyway.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2010, 13:30
by wrightwing
Fox1 wrote:In purely the air to air arena, I don't think the F-35 stacks up very favorably against the F-22. The F-22 has a serious BVR advantage because it has a larger, more powerful radar than the F-35. And it also has a much smaller frontal RCS and better all aspect RCS than the F-35. The F-22 likely gets "first look, first shoot" in most circumstances. It also has much better performance than the F-35 will have. With the ability to fly so fast and so high, it will largely be able to dictate the terms of the engagement. And if a Raptor driver were to find himself in a position where he perceives he's at a disadvantage, he has the speed to escape and, if he wishes, later re-engage. The F-35 can't run from the F-22. The one advantage the F-35 driver would currently hold in WVR fights is the ability to employ the AIM-9X via use of the JHMCS. But surviving long enough to reach the merge and have the chance to employ it against an aircraft with the Raptor's performance and capabilities is going to be problematic to say the least.

Folks, the F-35 is going to be a good aircraft. But trying to envision it as being equal to or better than the Raptor in the A2A arena just isn't realistic. The F-22 was designed with the intent to dominate anything else that gets airborne. Going A2A with other aircraft is the F-22's bread and butter mission. And in that regard, it is unequaled. The F-35, as a multi-role platform with a design that places equal emphasis on A2A and A2G will be a good performer. But the F-22 is a dedicated air superiority fighter. And in that role, the F-22 is simply the superior performer. But as long as the F-35 can remain "second best" in the air, then that will be good enough, since nobody else is employing anything currently or planned that can seriously compete with the F-22. Outside mock engagements, the F-35 isn't going to have to face the F-22 on the battlefield, which makes the whole debate kind of pointless anyway.


Mock battles between F-35s and F-22s would be useful training for both aircraft though. It would allow better tactics to be developed for both aircraft when dealing with low observable threats with high degrees of situational awareness. F-15 and F-16 pilots have certainly benefitted from training against F-22s, as they were able to develop tactics that were helpful against Su-30MKIs using TVC.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2010, 16:08
by LMAggie
henshao wrote:I just don't think the teensy little radar on the AMRAAM will be able to detect an F-22 at any relevant distance.


'Thinking' is useless in the realm of reality. Unless you've seen the classified RCS map of the F-22 and seeker performance of the missile, it's just a good Tom Clancy explanation. VLO does not mean invisible, otherwise we wouldn't have had a F-117 shot down. My question us how the heck is the F-22 going to even know the F-35 is in the theater? I think proper F-35 mission planning may keep the F-22 armed but clueless. Maybe not, but I think it's a biased assumption to think the F-35 will be known by CAP.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2010, 19:26
by henshao
So are we influencing reality in this thread?

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 03:37
by vegasdave901
LMAggie brings my original question back full circle. It's a future Red Flag with F-22s and F-35 pitted against each other. How will they know where they all are except if they happen to visually aquire each other? Could the sortie begin and it goes like this....nobody sees anybody, nobody sees anybody, nobody sees anybody, F-35 comes on the radio with, "Just shacked my target", nobody sees anybody, nobody sees anybody, everyone lands.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 04:40
by SpudmanWP
or...

Nobody sees anybody, nobody sees anybody,... F-22 and F-35 fly with 15km or so of each other and EODAS picks the F-22 up.

F-35 pops a AIM-120D. F-22 detects AMRAAM launch and maneuvers around to try and detect the F-35 to launch it's own AMRAAM.

F-35 goes home.

...just saying ;)

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 05:34
by sextusempiricus
I think I may have been among the first, under a different screen name, to raise the specter of VLO vs. VLO air-to-air engagements. Basically, we are facing the possibility that air combat in 10 to 15 years will have devolved into a WWI-type situation, where the principal means of detecting the enemy is visually, aided by EO and IRST-type sensors. Nobody will want to go active because passive ESM detection will always detect the signal first before that signal is able to illuminate anything itself. And while LPI may work on last generation RWR equipment, current and future-generation fighters will have adapted their ESM gear to pick up even on LPI signals (hey, if your ESM is picking up thousands of very tiny EM spikes across a wide spectrum, even if scarcely more "audible" than EM noise, then someone is probably looking at you or trying to find you; the technology is there or close to being there to "cohere" said signals enough so that they give away at the very least the bearing of the offending LPI AESA, if not the range). So, what you get is no one wanting to emit, and therefore no one detecting anything, at least not actively. If everyone in the arena is electronically silent, and VLO, the only means of detection is visual, aided or unaided. So you get something akin to sub warfare, where no one pings, everyone is listening, and everyone's so silent the first indication you get that someone's out there is your just having collided with their boat. Except in air warfare the air superiority platform is at an enormous disadvantage vs the ground-pounder. All that the latter wants is to get to the target and release its bombs. The air superiority fighter is useless if it doesn't have any target at which to shoot. In the above scenario, and everyone's VLO, who do you think wins? In a future air war, it will suck to play defense...

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 05:38
by sextusempiricus
By the way, keeping what I wrote above in mind, had we ever gotten into a shooting war with the old Soviet Union, our carriers would have been soooo toast...

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 06:40
by spazsinbad
I'll bite. How is this last related to the thread? "By the way, keeping what I wrote above in mind, had we ever gotten into a shooting war with the old Soviet Union, our carriers would have been soooo toast..."

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 07:23
by munny
Assuming BVR is out of the equation, I guess it's a question of whether an F35 can avoid 1 aim9x and whether the f22 can avoid 2 and whatever aim120's the f35 has left? As soon as they pass at the merge, the F22 is going to lose initiative and will be constantly evading due to the F35 being able to continue firing. Front on, the F22 may be invisible to amraam's, but while it's dodging and evading, there'll be moments when its showing its larger surfaces and nozzles.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 10:57
by sextusempiricus
spazsinbad wrote:I'll bite. How is this last related to the thread? "By the way, keeping what I wrote above in mind, had we ever gotten into a shooting war with the old Soviet Union, our carriers would have been soooo toast..."


In reference to modern subs being all but invisible - rather, inaudible - to one another, as a metaphor for how VLO fighters would fare against each other. They are like a hole in the ocean. And the Soviets had gotten pretty good at quieting their subs. We know this because American and Soviet subs collided more than once, not knowing the other was there. In the case of a shooting war, what with having to protect Atlantic supply routes and their aircraft carriers, the US and its allies would have been on the defensive. And having to play defense against all but inaudible subs is not something you want to have to do. You can never hope to win that fight, period.

Similarly, a VLO striker will almost always "win" vs a VLO fighter tasked to defend its territory. If neither one can find the other, the moment the bombs leave the bay game over, the striker wins, even if in the air it's a draw. Ya gettin' me, spaz?

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 11:48
by munny
Can I direct you to the "which is more likely to complete its mission, f22 or f35" thread?

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 16:08
by henshao
If they merge, the F-35 can no longer go home. The Raptor driver is going to be praying that those slammers don't track (Does the Raptor have a chaff dispenser?), but similarly, the F-35 driver is going to be praying that those little battery powered radios will do something his mighty AN/APG-81 AESA couldn't. Because now that the Raptor sees him, with that ginormous speed/acceleration advantage, the F-35 can't run. I'm not sure how far off boresight you can fire an AMRAAM from the F-35, but it'll be pretty neat if it can make them go the complete opposite direction.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 17:59
by exec
Raptor will probably detect F-35 from a distance of 40-50km. F-35 will see the F-22 from a distance of ~20km. I think there won't be any dogfight.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 20:00
by SpudmanWP
henshao,

The F-35 driver can continue to guide it's AIM-120D to within a mile or two before the AMRAAM has to go active. Remember that the AIM-120D has a new GPS based guidance package.

Part of the F-35's A2A advantage, against any fighter, is it's ability to launch a AIM-120D to cover the entire 360 envelope around the F-35.

In your above scenario, the F-22 would have to be heading straight for the F-35 (and it's on coming AMRAAM), while the F-35 can be sprinting away (while still guiding the AMRAAM towards the F-22).

Exec,

1. You are assuming that the F-35 will not detect the F-22's radar and that the F-22 and F-35 are headed towards each other to begin with.

2. You are discounting the jamming ability of the APG-81 and the fact that the F-35 can fight in a jamming environment while the F-22 cannot.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 20:12
by Rapec
SpudmanWP wrote:You are discounting the jamming ability of the APG-81 and the fact that the F-35 can fight in a jamming environment while the F-22 cannot.


So F-35, still in development phase can simply everything while the F-22 can do nothing? Can you give the source which clearly states (and it's based on real facts) that F-22 cannot fight in jamming environment?

Regards

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 20:17
by Rapec
Double post, my mistake.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 20:35
by spazsinbad
Baghdad's toxic electromagnetic environment may foil F-22

http://integrator.hanscom.af.mil/2007/F ... 007-20.htm

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 21:07
by SpudmanWP
1. The F-22 only has radar while the F-35 has two different IR based sensors that it can use.

2. The F-22s radar (just like any other radar) will have to get closer to the F-35 before it can "burn through" the jamming of the F-35.

3. Not only will the F-22 be the victim of jamming, but also the F-22's AMRAAM.

My point is that if the F-22 launches at 40-50km, the F-35 can launch at that same range (due to MAWS warning and EOTS targeting). Then both the F-35 and F-22 start jamming. Since the F-35 was at the extreme of the F-22's detection range, the F-22 radar looses lock. The F-35 can maneuver away while still guiding the AMRAAM headed for the F-22 (via EOTS/EODASS). The F-22's AMRAAM cannot be guided due to the loss of the lock.

This is just one more reason why I think the F-22 should be upgraded with the cheek arrays, AIRST, and MLD (EODASS-like) upgrades ASAP.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 22:16
by Prinz_Eugn
The F-22 has IR sensors, they are just lower resolution and don't have software as complex backing them up, IIRC. The F-22 probably has a more complex EW suite than the F-35, which is good from a capability standpoint but bad from a maintenance standpoint (Which is where the F-35 is designed to excel).

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 23:46
by exec
SpudmanWP wrote:
My point is that if the F-22 launches at 40-50km,

There is no need to launch a missile so early. When you detect a slower opponent 50 km from you, there is time to position yourself wherever you want to (where the F-35 can't see you - for example 5 km above and behind). First look + speed advantage is a very dangerous combo.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 00:38
by SpudmanWP
The F-22's IR sensors are only for MAWS functions, not aircraft tracking. They may have the hardware ability to do the job, but they do not have the software or integration to back it up. There would not be an active dev project to give them this ability if it already existed. The F-22's MAWS does not provide a raw video feed like the EODAS does.

The F-22, or any other fighter, will not likely be able to get within 10-15km of the F-35 (on a clear day) without the EODAS picking them up.

Again, why are you assuming that the F-22's radar will not set off the EW suite of the F-35?

The only advantage the F-22's radar has over the F-35's is raw performance. In every other way, be it tech level, processing power, modes, etc... the F-35 beats the F-22's radar.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 02:16
by vegasdave901
Spud, good point on your first post but I think the F-35 wouldn't launch a slammer, I think much like they F-117 used preflight SAM intel, they would use the detection information to avoid the F-22's envelope rather than engage. Sextus, good point on the WWI reference. It's like trench warfare, everyone knows where everyone is but the first guy to poke his head up gets hammered, therefore everyone tries to hunker down into a stalemate. Perhaps like WWI it will take a major, major development to break such a stalemate. In WWI it was the tank, not only did it break the stalemate it completely changed the way we fight wars.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 04:11
by henshao
One thing I overlooked. The F-22's electronics suite will probably have it's way with the inbound AMRAAM's radar. It doesn't require chaff, it could foil the missile with it's AESA.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 04:28
by SpudmanWP
Um, no. The F-22 does not have internal jammers, just the planned upgrade to it's radar to give it jamming ability just like the F-35's radar.

While it may jam the AMRAAM (just like the F-35 can jam the F-22's AMRAAM), the F-35 can still guide (using EOTS and EODAS) it's AMRAAM close enough to the F-22 for the AMRAAM to burn through the jamming. The F-22 does not have that ability.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 06:06
by henshao
Jamming against the AMRAAM itself would be the worst thing the F-22 could do. (Can't find me? Here I am!) I was thinking jamming against the datalink.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 06:21
by Prinz_Eugn
SpudmanWP wrote:Um, no. The F-22 does not have internal jammers, just the planned upgrade to it's radar to give it jamming ability just like the F-35's radar.


Uhhh.... sure.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 09:26
by Rapec
Hello

SpudmanWP wrote:Um, no. The F-22 does not have internal jammers, just the planned upgrade to it's radar to give it jamming ability just like the F-35's radar.


Well, by the time F-35A will be operational, all F-22 should be upgraded to Increment 3.1 which includes EA and SAR capability.

Regards

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 17:00
by SpudmanWP
In the above scenario, I already conceded to the 3.1 F-22 upgrade. It can only jam in the forward sector, which means if it flees, it cannot jam.

Just as an aside, the F-35's leading-edge sensor bays have room for active EW emmiters if they are ever wanted & integrated.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 17:53
by butters
The problem with jamming is Home On Jammer guidance control. The AESA LPI isn't going to help because a jammer has to jam the frequency of the missile's radar, which means sticking to that specific frequency.

By launching two missile - one emitting, and the other a passive HOJ (have the emitter also emit a pre-programmed individualized pulse pattern that the HOJ partner is programmed to avoid) the defending a/c is caught on the horns of dilemma. Cut the jamming, and the emitter gets you. Jam that one, and the HOJ gets you. The cost of an extra missile is small change if it can significantly increase the probability of destroying a $130M+ fighter.

Or at least so it seems to me, and yes, I'm not that informed on the intricacies of state of the art AA missile guidance systems.

BTW, doesn't the AIM 120 already incorporate HOJ terminal guidance?
And why the box you post in won't let you see what you're writing after a half dozen lines? Likeright now?jeez...

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 18:04
by SpudmanWP
The F-35 can jam the F-22 but leave the incoming AMRAAM alone thereby negating the HOJ functions. If the AMRAAM cannot get into the reduced size kill box (due to no mid-course updates) then the AMRAAM need not be jammed.

And both the F-22 and F-35 can do the "launch 2 AMRAAMs" thing (yes it has HOJ).

We're back to the F-35 having two additional IR sensors that cannot be jammed.

Just to throw an additional wrench into the mix, how about the F-35 launching an internal AIM-9X or ASRAAM which cannot be jammed?

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 18:38
by Beazz
And why the box you post in won't let you see what you're writing after a half dozen lines? Likeright now?jeez...[/quote]

It's an IE8 problem. Maybe IE 7 to but not sure. Either use Firefox or go to *compatibility view* in IE. Compatibility view fixed it when I had the same prob way back when I first upgraded to IE8. I finally stopped using IE and switched to Firefox which I now like better anyhow.

Beazz

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 21:31
by Rapec
Hello

SpudmanWP wrote:In the above scenario, I already conceded to the 3.1 F-22 upgrade. It can only jam in the forward sector, which means if it flees, it cannot jam.


In both scenerios we're talking about using radar (correspondingly APG-81 and APG-77) as a jammer. This is why I can't understand why APG-81 can jam while flying and APG-77 cannot.

SpudmanWP wrote:Just as an aside, the F-35's leading-edge sensor bays have room for active EW emmiters if they are ever wanted & integrated.


Could you write some more (or simply give your source) about possibility of installing EW emmiter in F-35's LE sensor bays?

Regards

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 21:55
by SpudmanWP
Rapec,

In the above scenario, both the F-35 and the F-22 are jamming (using their radars). The F-35 maintains the advantage because it can still track the F-22 using it's EOTS or EODAS.

On the LE sensor bay source, I will have to dig it up.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 22:12
by Rapec
Hello

SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35 maintains the advantage because it can still track the F-22 using it's EOTS or EODAS


Agree, and nothing to argue about.

SpudmanWP wrote:In the above scenario, both the F-35 and the F-22 are jamming (using their radars).


In my opinion we must take into account the different capabilities of both radars in the field of jamming power. The APG-77 (as it's antena is bigger and probably has more T/R modules) could have an advantage over APG-81 radar.

SpudmanWP wrote:On the LE sensor bay source, I will have to dig it up.


I would be grateful for any info regarding thiss issue.

Regards

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 22:27
by SpudmanWP
Rapec wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:In the above scenario, both the F-35 and the F-22 are jamming (using their radars).


In my opinion we must take into account the different capabilities of both radars in the field of jamming power. The APG-77 (as it's antena is bigger and probably has more T/R modules) could have an advantage over APG-81 radar.


Correct, the F-22 will likely burn through the F-35's jamming first. Unfortunately, while he is trying the AMRAAM / 9X / ASRAAM is getting closer and closer.

One thought just occurred to me. The F-22 will be directing it's jamming signal in a direction based on it's RWR. Because it does not have a good fix on the F-35's location, it's jamming has to be spread out in a cone.

The F-35, however, knows exactly where the F-22 is. This will allow the F-35's jamming energy to be directed at the F-22 in a very small cone, much smaller than the F-22's cone. This will likely negate the F-22's larger radar benefit (due to having to spread out it's jamming energy).

I will post info about the sensor bay as soon as I can find it.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 23:14
by r2d2
I'm not convinced yet; (assuming the F-35 is capable of seeing an F-22 first) what difference does it make if I see Mike Tyson first?

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 23:49
by SpudmanWP
Actually, it's like fighting Mike Tyson, in the dark, while wearing NVGs.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2010, 23:57
by r2d2
... while praying for not to see a punch coming through the NVGs.

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 00:45
by SpudmanWP
True, but the advantage is still with the guy in the NVGs

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 02:33
by henshao
Spudman, I know you really want the F-35 to win for some reason. It's very likely that it would complete it's strike mission without ever being spotted by the Raptor, unless they somehow stacked Raptors on every major target. Similarly, if an F-35 could find a Raptor without being seen, presumably using it's distributed aperture system, it could conceivably get in behind the Raptor for a heaven-sent gun shot.

But if the Raptor ever finds the F-35, it's curtains. If the F-35 launches an AMRAAM and datalinks, it will probably be detected (and foiled) by the Raptor, who will then run it down and sidewinder or gun it, unless datalinks are LPI these days and the F-35 can launch from beyond missile launch detection distance. Even if you loft an AMRAAM, you're asking even more of the Slammer's seeker to find a Raptor in ground clutter. Even supposing the Raptor did jam the missile's radar and not it's guidance link, that battery powered microwave is supposed to burn through the APG-77? It would home on jam just fine, but probably never burn through.

And if the Raptor pilot finds himself under attack, he has no reason to leave his radar off and not search for the F-35. You seem pretty sold that an AMRAAM could find a Raptor, surely you believe the APG-77 could find the more visible F-35.

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 03:32
by geogen
It's really a kinda flawed hypothetical, to begin with? There are simply not enough F-22s procured by USAF anyway in order to independently mount a sufficient, comprehensive Air defense blanket protecting all points of possible strike (in such a Red Flag exercise - w/ Raptors being the Red team). You could simply swarm such a small, stand alone force. End of game.

More realistically, by say 2016 when this 'hypothetical' Red Flag would occur anyway, you'ld want to have gap-filling F-16 (ideally low profile, semi-clean F-16Xx) teamed up with the increment 3.2 F-22s, being the 'NVG' for F-22 Quarterbacks. Now the tactical situation has definitely flipped. And if 'Red team' could furthermore integrate MICA-IR type ordnance, e.g., into upgraded platforms (or simply just have some Rafale as its team-mate), then all kinds of tactical factors get thrown into the mix, far more potentially resulting in detection and forced merge.

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 05:18
by SpudmanWP
This is getting monotonous.... For every conceivable point someone will come up with an equally conceivable counterpoint.

I guess we'll have to wait to see what happens. Then again, it's not like they will publish the results ;)

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 08:59
by exec
SpudmanWP wrote:Correct, the F-22 will likely burn through the F-35's jamming first. Unfortunately, while he is trying the AMRAAM / 9X / ASRAAM is getting closer and closer.

Ok, so let's assume that bur through range is 1/2 of unjammed detection range. This means that burn through range for the F-22 is ~24km and for the F-35 is ~11km, so as you see the Raptor can still lauch AIM-120 which should be able get to the F-35 long before geting inside Lightening's burn-throug zone.

SpudmanWP wrote:One thought just occurred to me. The F-22 will be directing it's jamming signal in a direction based on it's RWR. Because it does not have a good fix on the F-35's location, it's jamming has to be spread out in a cone.

And why is that? Why not to direct it's jamming signal using own radar as a direction finder?

SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35, however, knows exactly where the F-22 is.

1. Raptor can detect the F-35 from a distance of ~40-50km (and it can launch a missile).
2. We don't know if the RWR of the F-35 can pick APG-77 LPI radar.
3. F-35 can detect Raptor from a distance of ~20km.
4. Raptor can remain undetected and get on a good launch position like 5-6 km above the F-35 and ~10km behind, so that the DAS can't see it.

What can the F-35 do in this situation? Run? Turn and fire it's own missile? But the Raptor is much higher, and there's also a missile closing fast....

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 10:53
by cywolf32
Honestly, the question asked is silly at best. Red Flag is a force structure exercise, not some hypothetical one on one engagement. It's a systems game to learn what can be done in a real time environment. No one here has enough information to make a guess at what such an outcome would be. And I highly doubt F-22's would be used as red air since there is not a similar threat to counter right now.

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 18:15
by SpudmanWP
exec wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Correct, the F-22 will likely burn through the F-35's jamming first. Unfortunately, while he is trying the AMRAAM / 9X / ASRAAM is getting closer and closer.

Ok, so let's assume that bur through range is 1/2 of unjammed detection range. This means that burn through range for the F-22 is ~24km and for the F-35 is ~11km, so as you see the Raptor can still launch AIM-120 which should be able get to the F-35 long before getting inside Lightening's burn-throug zone.


Exec, in the above the F-35 has already launched it's AMRAAM. The F-35 does not have to wait to "burn through" the F-22's jamming since it can use EOTS & EODAS to guide it's AMRAAM.

exec wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:One thought just occurred to me. The F-22 will be directing it's jamming signal in a direction based on it's RWR. Because it does not have a good fix on the F-35's location, it's jamming has to be spread out in a cone.

And why is that? Why not to direct it's jamming signal using own radar as a direction finder?


The reason it's can't use it's radar to cue the jamming is because IT IS BEING JAMMED!

exec wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35, however, knows exactly where the F-22 is.

1. Raptor can detect the F-35 from a distance of ~40-50km (and it can launch a missile).
2. We don't know if the RWR of the F-35 can pick APG-77 LPI radar.


LPI is just that, Low.. not NPI. Remember that the F-35's defensive suite is second only to the F-22's and has more processing power to back it up. As soon as the F-22 launches it's AMRAAM, the EODAS picks up the launch and cues the EOTS to ID & track the F-22. The F-35 does not need to detect the F-22's radar to detect the launch.

exec wrote:3. F-35 can detect Raptor from a distance of ~20km.
4. Raptor can remain undetected and get on a good launch position like 5-6 km above the F-35 and ~10km behind, so that the DAS can't see it.


The above launch has already given away the F-22's location. If it trys to get within ~15km, the EODAS will pick him out. In the frontal sector the EOTS can, in zoom mode, pick out target out past 40 nautical miles.

exec wrote:What can the F-35 do in this situation? Run? Turn and fire it's own missile? But the Raptor is much higher, and there's also a missile closing fast....


Well, if you want to define the engagement in such terms, the F-35 will likely fire it's AMRAAM, flee, and let a follow-on F-35 (still undetected by the F-22) guide the AMRAAM to the F-22.

See, we can go round and round coming up with perfect scenarios where one AC is in a better position over the other.

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 19:19
by exec
SpudmanWP wrote:
The above launch has already given away the F-22's location. If it trys to get within ~15km, the EODAS will pick him out.

I'm not so sure. Even in perfect weather it could be troublesome. DAS is composed of wide FOV sensors and it's range is limited.

SpudmanWP wrote:In the frontal sector the EOTS can, in zoom mode, pick out target out past 40 nautical miles.

Past 40 nautical miles for what type of targets? For example - new Russian OLS-35 for Su-35 in head-on engagements can detect and track targets up to 35km. I don't believe that EOTS is so much better. And if the F-22 is above clouds IR sensor performance will be even more degraded.

exec wrote:What can the F-35 do in this situation? Run? Turn and fire it's own missile? But the Raptor is much higher, and there's also a missile closing fast....


SpudmanWP wrote:See, we can go round and round coming up with perfect scenarios where one AC is in a better position over the other.

Yes we can, but it is the F-22 which has better detection range and much better kinematics so it's more likely that the F-22 will have a better position.

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 22:58
by SpudmanWP
Here is a shot using the SniperXR pod (the precursor to EOTS). AS you can tell, it can see well beyond the 36nm (67km) in the photo.

Image

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2010, 23:16
by exec
Impossible - look at the perspective.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 00:25
by SpudmanWP
exec wrote:Impossible - look at the perspective.


Sorry, what is impossible?

Are you saying that this is not a view of Vegas from 36nm away using a SniperXR?

The original video is here starting at the 2:35 mark.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 00:34
by henshao
Is it guiding a missile against a fighter that it has scanned for and found?

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 01:45
by SpudmanWP
The video? Unless the fighter is flying around Vegas, I doubt it.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 05:38
by geogen
Regarding that Sniper XR vid... First off, could anyone w/ relevant experience here validate the actual non-classified understanding of how to interpret and read such a Sniper FLIR's display data?

Forinstance; is the little 'box' / rectangle graphic thingy easily seen floating around on the display screen the laser range finder? Or is the mere center of the crosshair the actual laser range finding point?

Depending on that answer, I think the data portrayed and claimed on the Sniper XR youtube vid would be able to help provide a clearer interpretation vis-a-vis your arguments, Spud.

Also, just for sake of the discussion, Spud, you'll notice that the max range 'ground' spotting is apparently more capable via Manual aiming vs auto-tracking mode? Moreover, noticing F-16 auto-tracking (with box centered in the crosshair around target) @ 1:15 in video, it apparently is being tracked at 20km (20,000m +/-) which is how I'd perceive the display number at top right corner? Now, considering said aerial target tracking is from a side-view and not head-on, it would have to be deduced that the head-on auto-tracking might be of less range than compared to full airframe image? (not that the 20km example would be the max range of course, for a2a side-aspect tracking).

Lastly, it's probably speculative to claim an Amraam class air launch could necessarily be detected by EODAS at 20+ km? Maybe under best sky conditions only and at night?

Just trying to put some topics out there for perspective.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 06:26
by SpudmanWP
If that is at 20km.. that's very nice image. Most of the track was at 1.0x zoom and switched to 4x zoom at the end.

I can't wait to see some EOTS images with range data to compare with.

While looking at that 36nm shot, keep in mind that the Stratosphere is about 125ft across. So a F-16 is about half the width of the Stratosphere. It is obvious that detection is easy at 1x and ID at 4x zoom, clear sky of course ;)

On the EODAS detection range question, only the term "long range" has been used. Using the Mig-35's example of:

The SOAR can detect a Manpads missile launch from a distance of 10km, air-to-air missile from 30km and large antiaircraft missile from 50km.


I think that since the EODAS has 6 compared to the Mig-35's 2 sensors, the increased processing power of the F-35's electronics, and the better sensors of the EODAS will provide at least a 50% advantage over the Mig's detection range.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 07:28
by geogen
I'm going to speculate that EOTS/SniperXR's effective A2A range w/ 'auto-tracking' capability will have same range (laser-range finding/targeting capability) whether in 1.0 zoom or 4.0x zoom. The switched TV zoom advantage would probably be for visual ID primarily (whether target is auto-tracked and ranged or just being manually viewed)? But the apparent 20km auto-track vs F-16 segment (@ 1:15 point) w/range finding demonstrates pretty capable *passive* laser range targeting, even if vs a side-aspect viewed (50' long) aerial target (rather than head-on). Of course, clear skies equating to more superior laser performance would always be the maximizing factor when employing the EOTS type sensor in passive auto-targeting (as well enabling better manual mode visuals/detection).

*edit: Now w/ regards to the mentioned 'post-edited' 36nm spotting 'claim' in noted segment... if it is truly laser ranged (highly doubtful) it would seemingly be indicating the range of the 'box' lasing the ground point beyond the sphere, as vid shows - miles behind sphere - and not the range of the 'sphere'. But more likely this claimed (post-edited) 36nm range was simply showing the 'manually' viewed TV display quality of objects in field of view... the range of which - of at least some distant objects in the field of view - being determined/estimated from post-edited GPS calculated/mapping and obviously to show context of aperture's no doubt quality capabilities.

Accordingly, the superior max-ranged, manual sighted/detection abilities shown in vid are probably enhanced by the F-16 back-seater, assuming pilot is concentrating work load on actually flying and managing all the generated data inputs, etc.

Regarding the EODAS missile launch 'detection' range of 30km (depending on missile size, aspect of launch angle and clarity of sky conditions), I'll concede that possible capability. Yet such best case detection ranges of the launch warning capability, thus alerting to the direction should not imply follow-on passive 'tracking/targeting' capability of a VLO launch a/c at those same ranges - especially if searching against a head-on frontal-aspect target. I think that was the main focus of the speculated 'passive' sensor targeting capability, as an advantage vs F-22?

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 11:16
by exec
SpudmanWP wrote:
exec wrote:Impossible - look at the perspective.


Sorry, what is impossible?

Are you saying that this is not a view of Vegas from 36nm away using a SniperXR?

The original video is here starting at the 2:35 mark.

36 NM claim is impossible.

1. Look at the perspective.
2. Speed of the aircraft - actually knowing the distance beetween the Stratosphere and other buildings behind it you can count the distance beetween Sniper and Stratosphere.

If it's really 36 NM (~67km) so a hypothetical 36 NM circle around the Stratosphere has a perimeter of 418 km. The Sniper carrying a/c from this video (judging by it's speed) should be able to fly around the Stratosphere in 1 or 2 minutes. So it's speed should be like 12 500 km/h - 25 000 km/h

3. Zoom needed to show the Stratosphere from such distance - simply sniper does'n have the aperture to use such magnification (should be well over 200x).

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 14:51
by r2d2
(First I couldn't watch the video so my post may be dead wrong. consider this as an idea)
There is a small box (placed up & right to the main box with crosshairs) in the picture. Can it be an a/c at 36 nm???

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 18:12
by SpudmanWP
Wow, exec you should call Congress and tell then that LM must be lying again.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 18:50
by exec
SpudmanWP wrote:Wow, exec you should call Congress and tell then that LM must be lying again.

It looks like you have run out of arguments. :wink:

I never said that your Congress or LM is lying, and I don't say that sniper's range is lower than 36 NM, but this picture and this video aren't taken from that distance, period.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2010, 20:30
by Neno
Here's what i believe:
Life is easy!
If F-35 could be a better A2A platform, they simply stop building (some years ago) the uncheaper Raptor.
If the EODAS and EOTS could make an inferior (A2A) aircraft in a better-to-Raptor aircraft, they simply run installing them even in the side-bay, if needed!!
If the AN/APG81 would be better than the AN/APG77 (always in A2A arena) they would simply put it on the Raptor's nose (there is room!).

And If the F-35 try to jam the F-22 the Raptor's AN/ALR94 will drive the AIM-120D on the LightiningII's nose.

The impressive Raptor's maneuverability can make the irst detection range fall to half in a few seconds (rear look-on vs front look-on), the same is for side or above RCS vs front RCS. Yes you probably can look at a Raptor's side and track it at some distance but in few seconds it could desappear from your screen.
Can you tell it dosn't have a laser detection device?

Oh, and following on the "if-scenario" again: ..They probably sold F-22 to Australia Israel, an Japan... Maybe the actually builded 186..

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2010, 01:20
by henshao
Neno wrote:Here's what i believe:
Life is easy!
If F-35 could be a better A2A platform, they simply stop building (some years ago) the uncheaper Raptor.
If the EODAS and EOTS could make an inferior (A2A) aircraft in a better-to-Raptor aircraft, they simply run installing them even in the side-bay, if needed!!
If the AN/APG81 would be better than the AN/APG77 (always in A2A arena) they would simply put it on the Raptor's nose (there is room!).

And If the F-35 try to jam the F-22 the Raptor's AN/ALR94 will drive the AIM-120D on the LightiningII's nose.

The impressive Raptor's maneuverability can make the irst detection range fall to half in a few seconds (rear look-on vs front look-on), the same is for side or above RCS vs front RCS. Yes you probably can look at a Raptor's side and track it at some distance but in few seconds it could desappear from your screen.
Can you tell it dosn't have a laser detection device?

Oh, and following on the "if-scenario" again: ..They probably sold F-22 to Australia Israel, an Japan... Maybe the actually builded 186..


F-22 outside the US? That'd be treason, sir.

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2010, 21:56
by aeroxavier
f-35 (and f-22) prob is simple: today the form of the plane is not necessary because one plane like rafale can make what the f-22 make . order of generation was not right .
system is simple: you don't use your radars but you need catch enemy radar emission.
when f-22 was equiped with that, only it i the world have that, but now others country (rafale and probably ef2000 in future) develop that.
now we need catch physical signal but in few year all plane can have what the f-22 can make electronical detection

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2010, 04:42
by vegasdave901
cywolf32 "Honestly, the question asked is silly at best."

My question posits a Red Flag scenario of all stealthy aircraft, how is it silly? I think it is perhaps the most pertinent question to ask at this point.

As to the statement that F-22's and F-35's might not be used against each other in a blue/ red capacity in a Red Flag I say what would you have said in 1977 if I told you the last remaining F-15's (A or C) would be in two Aggressor squadrons?

Exec, I see your point about the Stratosphere. The question is what is the sniper pod looking at at 36NM? You're right that the Strat. is not 36NM from the pod, I live 13 miles from the Strat. I think the 36NM in question is a point farther behind the Strat. It just happens to be the most prominent feature in the shot.

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2010, 08:05
by geogen
VegasD, please allow me to contribute my independent response to that last question posed to Exec, while you await for his response.

IMHO, the noted pop-up '36NM' indication is a 'POST EDIT' made for the public interest. It's NOT an actual SNIPER XR display data number. As far as 'what' was likely 36NM away from the range-finding box (or more likely the known, post-flight calculated GPS coordinate) in the said image??? It was most likely the distant field of view where the 'box' was pointing as indicated in vid/image. That is, it's perhaps what, targeted 5-10km on a ground point behind the Sphere?

That being said, for a legacy aircraft employing SniperXR or Litening, etc to auto-lock/track on an F-16 from 20km away (ostensibly using laser range-finding) speaks for itself. Now if it can do that for a frontal-aspect F-22 before getting a missile launch warning, then more power to it.

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2010, 23:09
by Viperalltheway
I had already seent hat video. It's impossible that it's 36nm.

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2010, 00:58
by BDF
The Sniper is a mid-wave FLIR which isn’t great for long range detection of airborne threats which is why most new generation IRST such as PIRATE and the AAS-42 are dual band detectors in both mid and long wave bands. I’m also skeptical that this 36nm video of Seattle is analogous to the A-A performance of package, particularly against threats employing IR signature management techniques.

I do agree that the F-22 should get an IRST as part of a future spiral upgrade, preferably in the 2015 upgrade cycle (3.3 perhaps?).

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2010, 05:56
by munny
I loved this comment regarding the F22 by one of our boys...

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."



So does that mean that aim9x's as well as 120's simply would not work on it? If that's the case then F35 is toast in any scenario. DAS is just a 360 degree set of eyes effectively...and they don't help unless they are being used to guide the missile in all the way (or is that also what EODAS does?)

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2010, 12:11
by wrightwing
munny wrote:I loved this comment regarding the F22 by one of our boys...

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."



So does that mean that aim9x's as well as 120's simply would not work on it? If that's the case then F35 is toast in any scenario. DAS is just a 360 degree set of eyes effectively...and they don't help unless they are being used to guide the missile in all the way (or is that also what EODAS does?)


DAS=EODAS(Electro optical distributed aperture system)

With the AIM-9X Block II(LOAL) combined with DAS, a Raptor pilot wouldn't want to get too close. Additionally, the F-35's radar would do better than earlier radars against a Raptor. That being said, if the Raptor pilot is smart, he'll fly his jet to his advantages, while minimizing the advantages of his opponent.

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2010, 13:08
by geogen
The above speculated encounter must take into account the distinct possibility that actual 'targeting' capabilities, via EODAS, might not be software-enabled until block IV? (Say IOC by 2018?)

Often it is claimed that the avionics 'will' be able to do this and that, but in truth the full extent of JSF capabilities, as with F-22, are also dependent of the actual increment or block development capability upgrades. In this above scenario to work in say 2016 block III IOC, it must be assumed only that indeed software enabled EODAS + weapon computer integration would include such weapons cueing ability then. But as the software code is expanded to include more full sensor integration and greater systems exploitation over the course of spiral F-35 block development, e.g., block IV and especially block V and then block VI (block VI - advertised in the Norwegian doc to include all-aspect passive detection and defense response integration, e.g.), then F-35 will be able to take more advantage over its envisioned capabilities accordingly.

So in equal minded speculation, it's also conceivable regarding above scenario that by the time F-35 is cueing internally loaded -9X II (if that loadout is ever a reality) or even AMRAAM via EODAS, F-22 might itself be upgraded in Increment 3.3 ability to cue passively in an IR aspect as well?

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2010, 20:32
by SpudmanWP
IIRC, Energo (published here) did an interview and they clearly stated that the EODAS and the EOTS (in A2A mode) were fully integrated in Blk3.

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2010, 03:22
by FlightDreamz
Geogen
So in equal minded speculation, it's also conceivable regarding above scenario that by the time F-35 is cueing internally loaded -9X II (if that loadout is ever a reality) or even AMRAAM via EODAS, F-22 might itself be upgraded in Increment 3.3 ability to cue passively in an IR aspect as well?

One could always hope that the powers that be will continue to take care of the F-22 Raptors after such a short production run! By all rights there should be some "cross pollination" between the two airframes.

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2011, 19:25
by thestealthfighterguy
This thread is great! I know it's a year old but had to say something. I love the nobody see anything post. Both these aircraft are beasts of mosty unknown abillity. Raptors are already fighting raptors, so at some point F-35 will fight Raptor. We don't know what they can really do. It's classified. IMO the F-35 will compete the bombing run 99% of the time if it work as advertised. Although at some point someone will see someone. If you look at the F-117 and B-2 day time is the most likely time for someone to get lucky and spot someone. F-35 will get through in less someone gets lucky. IMO if the Raptor is not upgraded in the next 5 to 10 years F-35 my win with tech alone. Raptor must be upgreaded with everything we have.

Another thing, Don't listen to all the yahoo's saying f-22 can see F-35 at this range and F-35 can see F-22 at that range. It's a bunch of B.S. If someone in here is in the "KNOW" about this they wouldn't dare to open his or her mouth. If you think this is a stupid topic your wrong. We will not get the chance to test our aircraft agenst the T-50 in less India brings one to red flag in say 2020. This may not happen for many year because I don't think they will want to risk getting spanked in less they think they can win. That's what they though when they brought Su-30 to red flag. They thought they would win. They were wrong. All this will help use when J-20 comes out.
India at red flag part one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKEa-R37PeU
part twohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfXBoeV86Yo&feature=related
India not happyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNie0HzPmaY&feature=related
My two cents TSFG

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2011, 21:17
by southernphantom
Inless is not a word. Your is not the proper contraction for "you are". I generally agree with you, but improvements to spelling and grammar really help people take you seriously. As for the radar detection ranges, I believe at least part of that is based on their own analysis. You can get an RCS figure and a radar range figure, apply a basic but sound formula, and come out with the approximate detection range of X vs. Y.

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 04:14
by alloycowboy
The problem with the F-35 vs F-22 debate is people are pitting aircraft vs aircraft which is the wrong way to look at it. A better way to look at it is what can the Air force get for $150 million dollars which is the fly way cost of an F-22 in 2009 dollars. If cost projections hold the USAF should be able to get two F-35's for the price of one F-22. So the question that should be asked is one F-22 better then two F-35's and the answer to that question is a unequivocal no! In the two on one ACM engagement the F-22 gets pummeled by the F-35's advanced sensors and data networking. While the F-22 has more speed and agility it is not enough of an edge to defeat two F-35's in a ACM dog fight as the F-22 can only engage one F-35 at a time leaving its hind quarter badly exposed to the other F-35 which is the whole methodology for flying aircraft in pairs.

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 11:15
by popcorn
alloycowboy wrote:.... which is the whole methodology for flying aircraft in pairs.


One wonders though what changes in tactics have been developed since the F-22 entered squadron service and pilots got to explore the advanced capabilities of their new mounts. With superior 360-deg SA afforded to the F-35 pilot will further stretch the tactical envelope. The god's-eye view provided by the panoramic display more than makes up for a 2nd set of wingman's eyeballs. It would be fascinating to learn more about how they are rewriting the rules of air combat but I suspect we will just have to settle for tantalizing glimpses and lots of speculation.

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 15:15
by alloycowboy
popcorn wrote:
alloycowboy wrote:.... which is the whole methodology for flying aircraft in pairs.


One wonders though what changes in tactics have been developed since the F-22 entered squadron service and pilots got to explore the advanced capabilities of their new mounts. With superior 360-deg SA afforded to the F-35 pilot will further stretch the tactical envelope. The god's-eye view provided by the panoramic display more than makes up for a 2nd set of wingman's eyeballs. It would be fascinating to learn more about how they are rewriting the rules of air combat but I suspect we will just have to settle for tantalizing glimpses and lots of speculation.


@ Popcorn..... I would like to be a fly on the wall when the F-35 goes up against the F-22 for the first time at Nellis AFB. They might have go back to shooting pistols from the cockpit ala WWI if the radars can't get a lock.

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 17:48
by SpudmanWP
radars can't get a lock.
Don't forget F-35's EOTS and EODAS. It does not need radar (although it does make it a lot easier).

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 18:45
by thestealthfighterguy
southernphantom wrote:Inless is not a word. Your is not the proper contraction for "you are". I generally agree with you, but improvements to spelling and grammar really help people take you seriously. As for the radar detection ranges, I believe at least part of that is based on their own analysis. You can get an RCS figure and a radar range figure, apply a basic but sound formula, and come out with the approximate detection range of X vs. Y.


I'm a mathematician and half blind. Can't see out of one eye. I have dyslexia and ADHD. Never could type or spell worth beans. What do you do? You can ignoire me if you want. Sorry. I'm what I am. FUBAR

As for your formula... your numbers are not real. They're classified.

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 03:46
by popcorn
SpudmanWP wrote:
radars can't get a lock.
Don't forget F-35's EOTS and EODAS. It does not need radar (although it does make it a lot easier).

With sensor-fused data from onboard and offboard sensors, having a traditional wingman seems almost superfluous or even wasteful of resources. Its possibly more efficient to spread a/c as widely apart BVR butstill able to provide mutual support should the need arise.Perhaps this may be dictated by the radius of the SAbubble created by EODAS?

F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 07:23
by alloycowboy
Some one can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding with the F-22's it that they like to fly a line abreast formation with each aircraft spaced about 6 miles apart. This maximizes the effectiveness of the AESA radar and puts everyone in a BVR firing position. I would expect a similar formation for the F-35's.

On a side note, someone made a really nice slide show of all the different flying formations. Kudos to Charlie November for this!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62804728/Formation-Air-flight-fighter-Engl02-2011

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 10:34
by popcorn
Here's something I've been wondering about for some time..
If one AESA radar has 2000 T/R modules and another AESA set has 1300 identical T/R modules, can we assume that they can detect target a/c at identical ranges? In theory, the more T/R modules the more modes that can be employed concurrently if supported by the back-end and its program but range should be similar, right?

Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 18:08
by thestealthfighterguy
alloycowboy wrote:Some one can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding with the F-22's it that they like to fly a line abreast formation with each aircraft spaced about 6 miles apart. This maximizes the effectiveness of the AESA radar and puts everyone in a BVR firing position. I would expect a similar formation for the F-35's.

On a side note, someone made a really nice slide show of all the different flying formations. Kudos to Charlie November for this!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62804728/Formation-Air-flight-fighter-Engl02-2011


Great link. Thank you.

RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 18:17
by SpudmanWP
The more identical T&Rs then the more radar energy can be sent out, reflected, returned, and analyzed. If it were the way you think then the F-35 would have a greater detection range due to it's newer T&Rs.

Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2011, 03:19
by popcorn
in
SpudmanWP wrote:The more identical T&Rs then the more radar energy can be sent out, reflected, returned, and analyzed. If it were the way you think then the F-35 would have a greater detection range due to it's newer T&Rs.

Definitely more radar energy going out but distance would be the same assuming identical T/R modules. More T/R modules mean the latter can probably discriminate better( E.g. count the engine fan blades in NCTR mode) but given the very focused beams characterstic of AESA radars, perhaps the difference is only marginal. The prevailing wisdom has always been that the larger the radar dish, the farther away a radar can detect a target, something w/c may no longer be the case with AESA tech.

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2011, 05:54
by SpudmanWP
The size of the radar dish, even with AESA, is still important because it allows more of the returning energy to be collected and analyzed.

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2011, 06:51
by alloycowboy
@ Spudman...... Speaking of the size of the radar dishes I just had a thought. I wonder if it is possible to use "interferometry" like they do on Radio Telescope Arrays to get improved radar detection. Actually that would make perfect sense since all the F-35's in the line abreast formation would be networked.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometry

Check out the Video on the Alma Radio Telescope for a good explaination of Interferometry.

http://vimeo.com/user7108213/alma-opens-its-eyes

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2011, 07:16
by SpudmanWP
I don't even want to think about the amount of datalink traffic & computations required as the F-35s continually shift positions. Better to sync with the existing EWS in the wing bays (it they do not already do that).

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2014, 22:50
by phantasm
Many have said this devolves into a question of what Block vs what Block, but I would think across Blocks this picture remains the same in any 22 vs 35 duel until the major change of the Raptor finally getting an anti-stealth sensor in the form of a EODAS, IRST, A2A capable FLIR....
Or the APG 77 somehow getting a boost in it's own ability against VLO platforms - Not sure how that could happen


Still no word on what increment or upgrade might contain that technical capability....at this rate, the F-35 will be upgraded to the point of a Raptor and beyond, while the F -22 becomes a turtle in upgrades...


I suppose the other trick would be to reduce the RCS and observable aspects of the Raptor further over time, making it even harder for any missile the 35 throws at it to really see it, or track it or follow it - whether that be AMRAAM or Sidewinder.
the HOBS/JHMCS threat could even be reduced in that case.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2014, 23:19
by sprstdlyscottsmn
F-35 can already jam the F-22 radar and the F-35 can update the AMRAAM vie GPS coordinates using EOTS/DAS to collect data. The Raptor is blind and the F-35 is not.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2014, 10:22
by zero-one
The F-35 can jam the F-22s radar, but is the opposite also true? If they use the exact same T/R modules and the Raptor simply has more of them, and the software is available, I think the answer would be yes, right?

Not sure what the purpose of this thread is, as F-35 test pilots themselves (arguably the most knowledgable people on the F-35 program) are saying that the F-35 would have "problems" with the Raptor, and that the F-35 was designed to be second to the Raptor in A-A combat.

One possible weakness that the Raptor has is that it can only see in the radio spectrum, but we can also say that what it can see in that dimension is better than what any other plane can see there.

I know this analogy would suck but the F-22 is like Daredevil (comic book/ Ben Afleck :devil: )
Sure you could see and hear him at times and he can only hear you. But he can hear you so well that he can practically see through walls and stuff

His amazing Kinematic performance and ability to be harder to detect also also helps.

But its not long before DACT exercises between the 2 planes give us something totally expected or leave us shocked to say the least

Re:

Unread postPosted: 07 Apr 2014, 14:16
by hornetfinn
popcorn wrote:Here's something I've been wondering about for some time..
If one AESA radar has 2000 T/R modules and another AESA set has 1300 identical T/R modules, can we assume that they can detect target a/c at identical ranges? In theory, the more T/R modules the more modes that can be employed concurrently if supported by the back-end and its program but range should be similar, right?


Some good answers here for this already, but basically the situation is fairly simple if T/R modules (and general radar design) are the same/very similar. In that case the range performance is only really affected by the T/R module count and antenna area. As the modules are likely to be installed in similar manner, then the T/R module count is the only thing that affects the range performance.

Normal radar range equation tells us that the most significant things that affect the radar range is the output power (average power, not peak power), antenna gain (antenna area * antenna efficiency) and smallest detectable signal power and all kinds of different losses (transmit, reflection, receive, system, atmospheric). In your question the output power would be directly the number of T/R modules (single beam) and antenna gain would be directly the the antenna area as the efficiency for the two radar antennas would be very similar. Smallest detectable signal power would be very similar as it would depend on the actual receiver.

So the detection/tracking range for two radars with same T/R modules, but with different module count would be fairly closely directly proportional to the T/R module count. So a radar with 2000 modules would be able to detect/track the same target at about 50 percent longer distances than the one with 1300 modules. So let's assume the 1300 module radar can track a target at 100 km/miles/nm away. The radar with 2000 modules can then track the same target at about 150 km/miles/nm away. Of course it seems that APG-81 has about 1620 modules and APG-77 about 2000. This would mean that APG-81 should have roughly about 80 percent of the range performance of the APG-77, depending on the exact number of the modules in each radar.

Things get a bit more complicated when the radars have different T/R modules with different output power, different noise figures and the whole system different losses.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 17:31
by steve2267
I knew there had to be an F-35 vs F-22 thread somewhere...

I ran across this 5 second video clip on a Twitter feed. It shows how much smaller the F-35 is compared to the F-22, which, frankly, shocked me. I mean, I knew the F-35 was "smaller"... but didn't realize it was THIS smaller...

https://twitter.com/LockheedMartin/stat ... 1519837185

I then searched YouTube and found this clip, which I also found informative vis-a-vis relative Raptor to Panther size, beginning around the 35sec mark:


Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 19:43
by mixelflick
All this talk about TR modules, sensors, weapons etc really boils down to this: The Raptor holds several classified advantages over the F-35 (and every other airframe), which is why there is a law it can't be exported.

In other words in a 1 vs 1 engagement vs. the F-35, F-22 wins.

People can explain and complain about that until they're blue in the face, but the simple fact of the matter is that common sense says the Raptor has the advantage. If it didn't, why did we build it at all? There is something there that Trumps everything else, including the F-35. Only the USAF/pilots/LM really know however, and its a solid bet that it won't be revealed anytime soon.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 20:20
by fbw
The APG-77v1 and APG-81 have the same TRM. From a specific article, it was my understanding that they were looking to standardize across their line of fighter AESA.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 21:47
by lamoey
I seriously doubt that the F-35 can track the F-22 radar or any other faint microwave signal. Not because it is technically impossible, but because there is no reason for the US to allow an F-35 to ever be able to track an F-22. We all know that the F-22 will only be in US service, while it is theoretically possible that an F-35 ends up in a not so friendly country (Turkey).

Unless the F-22 get in range of all the optical sensors on the F-35, it can probably fly with impunity around, or over the F-35. Putting a weapon on either of them at distance will be a challenge though, as they both probably have very advanced ways of fooling a radar guided missile. Any missile mid course guidance would probably be caught by either of them, so the cat would be out of the bag, and the fight would become much more unpredictable at that point. Within AIM-9X range the F-35 sensors would give it the advantage, while the F-22's advantage would be the agility and power it can employ in a knife fight.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 22:21
by white_lightning35
It's really not complicated. The f-22 has a clear kinematic advantage over the f-35. It may not be as stealthy in some respects, or have the same sensors, but that doesn't matter. When they meet, the f-22 will probably just be going too high, too fast, for the f-35 to match.

It has been made clear plenty times by people in the know that the f-22 is superior in A2A. Maybe this will change in the future as the f-35 continues to get upgraded.

Some people here just need to accept reality.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 23:25
by juretrn
white_lightning35 wrote:It's really not complicated. The f-22 has a clear kinematic advantage over the f-35. It may not be as stealthy in some respects, or have the same sensors, but that doesn't matter. When they meet, the f-22 will probably just be going too high, too fast, for the f-35 to match.

It has been made clear plenty times by people in the know that the f-22 is superior in A2A. Maybe this will change in the future as the f-35 continues to get upgraded.

Some people here just need to accept reality.

This.
In A2A, nothing touches the Raptor, it's just no contest. If there's a weakness in the Raptor, it's the lack of IRST/DAS and that proprietary datalink. But that can be overcome with upgrades.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 03:18
by Corsair1963
juretrn wrote:
white_lightning35 wrote:It's really not complicated. The f-22 has a clear kinematic advantage over the f-35. It may not be as stealthy in some respects, or have the same sensors, but that doesn't matter. When they meet, the f-22 will probably just be going too high, too fast, for the f-35 to match.

It has been made clear plenty times by people in the know that the f-22 is superior in A2A. Maybe this will change in the future as the f-35 continues to get upgraded.

Some people here just need to accept reality.

This.
In A2A, nothing touches the Raptor, it's just no contest. If there's a weakness in the Raptor, it's the lack of IRST/DAS and that proprietary datalink. But that can be overcome with upgrades.



Sorry, the F-35 has better Stealth and Sensors than the F-22. In addition while the latter clearly has an kinematic advantage (high and fast). That also has a down side......(higher IFR Signature)

In short we really don't know who would prevail and Uncle Sam isn't talking!

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 03:24
by Corsair1963
Also, in the coming years and decades. You can bet the F-35 will get vastly more funding for future upgrades. :wink:



So, while the F-22 is extremely capable in the Air Superiority Role. It's no giant compared to the F-35 either....

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 04:13
by element1loop
mixelflick wrote:" ... but the simple fact of the matter is that common sense says the Raptor has the advantage. If it didn't, why did we build it at all?


You know that's not so different to cobra123's 'common-sense' used within the soupadupa Sukoi Su57 radar-bloka™ discussion. i.e. "Sukoi would never have built it that way, exposed the fan face, if it didn't work, and wasn't VLO! They did, so it must be 6th-gen VLO! QED!", etc.

You could equally use his 'common sense' to assert that they halted F22 production short, because the value for money just wasn't there, and waiting for the emerging F35 capability was a better option, or why else would they have foregone the F22? It clearly makes sense ... who nose?

Cobra123 is GO! :mrgreen:

I'm kidding, it's not that bad, but it's no argument.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 08:54
by zero-one
Corsair1963 wrote:

Sorry, the F-35 has better Stealth and Sensors than the F-22.


More sensors would be a more accurate term, I think the advantage in primary long range sensor belongs to the F-22 (APG-77v1 > APG-81). I'm not sure how the ALR-94 vs AN\ASQ-239 compares when it comes to detection of airborne targets.


Corsair1963 wrote:In addition while the latter clearly has an kinematic advantage (high and fast). That also has a down side......(higher IFR Signature)


the Raptor has far less IR radiation compared to 4th gens. As Tailgate explained,the IR stealth is so effective that it can delay the acquisition time of state of the art IR weapons like the Aim-9X at close ranges.

just imagine how much harder it will be to detect a Raptor from BVR ranges, even if she is traveling at supersonic speeds, (no AB use)

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 09:08
by Corsair1963
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:

Sorry, the F-35 has better Stealth and Sensors than the F-22.


More sensors would be a more accurate term, I think the advantage in primary long range sensor belongs to the F-22 (APG-77v1 > APG-81). I'm not sure how the ALR-94 vs AN\ASQ-239 compares when it comes to detection of airborne targets.


Corsair1963 wrote:In addition while the latter clearly has an kinematic advantage (high and fast). That also has a down side......(higher IFR Signature)


the Raptor has far less IR radiation compared to 4th gens. As Tailgate explained,the IR stealth is so effective that it can delay the acquisition time of state of the art IR weapons like the Aim-9X at close ranges.

just imagine how much harder it will be to detect a Raptor from BVR ranges, even if she is traveling at supersonic speeds, (no AB use)



Simple fact is we have little idea on how the two really compare.................(just wild speculation)

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 10:13
by element1loop
As I see this, the F-22A was never an A2G jet. And it was never supposed to be. And the notion of spending a whole lot of money to replicate/compliment F-35A's A2G capabilities, makes zero sense. Yes, people will come at that remark with old obscure quotes claiming F-22A is the greatest A2G and SEAD aircraft of all time, etc.

But it just isn't, if it ever was. And given its lack of on-aircraft A2G systems it wasn't ever the best thing at A2G strike or SEAD. It was poor at A2G--there I said it--but it had VLO which was a vast advantage that made it a credible limited capability with sneak-up-and-bomb-you mojo.

The then contemporary zeitgeist context is of a program that was being relentlessly hammered for its astronomical cost-per-aircraft (for whatever reasons), and a lack of pressing need for BVR excellence. Which was undeniably true--then. The teens still kicked-arse in BVR so how do you make this new super jet relevant to the then, 'NOW'? You add A2G free-fall PGM bombs and SDB standoff, and talk-up what a cracker A2G platform it is. Plus you propose to withdraw the F-117A fleet to free-up money for F-22A orders, and use F-22A A2G to replace the F-117A's similarly very limited (and declining) capability, untill 3F F-35A is in IOC.

We are there now.

And that in a nutshell is why F-22A has limited A2G weapons and poor A2G targeting systems on jet. So yes, there is now zero reason to push an F-22A MLU in the direction of increasing its A2G capabilities.

So a large slap of the F-22A's mojo, capability and raison-detre just got supplanted via F-35 IOC and the 3F software drop.

The Raptor now needs a completely new focus that strictly differentiates it from the F-35A bully-boy who is stealing its mojo. What might that focus be?

It's a no-brainer. The F-35A will slaughter any 4th-gen airforce, as well, and in Allied service that will be a major slice of their raison-detre, and on-going development focus. But which also continues to cut the F-22A's grass.

Now ask yourself this, which US 5th-gen jet do you want to be the first to intercept and shoot down a J20?

The F-22A right? I agree.

The F-22A should have next to nothing further to do with A2G development and largely look past the 4th-gen BVR emphasis and focus like a laser on being THE 5th-gen J20 killer.

Doing so on a level of capability that the F-35A is not ideal to mirror.

Thus pursue MLU of the F-22A with that highly specialised anti-5th-gen role, and design and assemble the off-aircraft specialist systems-of-systems for a singular (Chinese) 5th-gen killer role that can eliminate anything China or Russia eventually comes up with in numbers.

The combat-coded F-22A force thus becomes unique, special and relevant for another 30 years or so.

And they all lived happily ever after.

2c opinion

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 10:46
by hornetfinn
zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Sorry, the F-35 has better Stealth and Sensors than the F-22.


More sensors would be a more accurate term, I think the advantage in primary long range sensor belongs to the F-22 (APG-77v1 > APG-81). I'm not sure how the ALR-94 vs AN\ASQ-239 compares when it comes to detection of airborne targets.


APG-77v1 is bigger and has about 20% longer detection range. If quotes that F-35 has better stealth are correct, they might well see each other at about same distance.

ALR-94 vs ASQ-239 is impossible to say from public information. Some quotes seem to indicate that they have generally similar performance but ASQ-239 can do co-operative ESM and EW better than anything before it. Of course ALR-94 might well have something that ASQ-239 does not, but we will probably never know for sure.

Sensor fusion in F-35 is said to be better by designers of both F-35 and F-22 sensor fusion (Fusion 2.0 vs 1.0 according to them). Of course it also needs to be better as it has to handle EO DAS and EOTS also.

F-22 definitely has better supersonic performance but subsonically they seem to be fairly close with F-22 probably having slightly better performance all around. Higher speed might be blessing or a curse depending on situation and how each other play their game. It gives both parties less time to react given that both aircraft are VLO.

From available information it seems like both aircraft have some unique features that could give them advantages against each other. I think biggest advantage of F-35 is cost and numbers which means there will be far more of them around. Of course they will not fight each other in any event and even if they did, it would be some F-22 and huge numbers of F-35 along with some B-2 and B-21 against fairly small number of F-35.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 13:17
by popcorn
Would love to see the F-22 in the ASAT role.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 14:30
by sferrin
popcorn wrote:Would love to see the F-22 in the ASAT role.


They could have done that with the F-15 but declined.