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F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 07:23
by alloycowboy
Some one can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding with the F-22's it that they like to fly a line abreast formation with each aircraft spaced about 6 miles apart. This maximizes the effectiveness of the AESA radar and puts everyone in a BVR firing position. I would expect a similar formation for the F-35's.

On a side note, someone made a really nice slide show of all the different flying formations. Kudos to Charlie November for this!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62804728/Formation-Air-flight-fighter-Engl02-2011

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 10:34
by popcorn
Here's something I've been wondering about for some time..
If one AESA radar has 2000 T/R modules and another AESA set has 1300 identical T/R modules, can we assume that they can detect target a/c at identical ranges? In theory, the more T/R modules the more modes that can be employed concurrently if supported by the back-end and its program but range should be similar, right?

Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 18:08
by thestealthfighterguy
alloycowboy wrote:Some one can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding with the F-22's it that they like to fly a line abreast formation with each aircraft spaced about 6 miles apart. This maximizes the effectiveness of the AESA radar and puts everyone in a BVR firing position. I would expect a similar formation for the F-35's.

On a side note, someone made a really nice slide show of all the different flying formations. Kudos to Charlie November for this!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62804728/Formation-Air-flight-fighter-Engl02-2011


Great link. Thank you.

RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2011, 18:17
by SpudmanWP
The more identical T&Rs then the more radar energy can be sent out, reflected, returned, and analyzed. If it were the way you think then the F-35 would have a greater detection range due to it's newer T&Rs.

Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2011, 03:19
by popcorn
in
SpudmanWP wrote:The more identical T&Rs then the more radar energy can be sent out, reflected, returned, and analyzed. If it were the way you think then the F-35 would have a greater detection range due to it's newer T&Rs.

Definitely more radar energy going out but distance would be the same assuming identical T/R modules. More T/R modules mean the latter can probably discriminate better( E.g. count the engine fan blades in NCTR mode) but given the very focused beams characterstic of AESA radars, perhaps the difference is only marginal. The prevailing wisdom has always been that the larger the radar dish, the farther away a radar can detect a target, something w/c may no longer be the case with AESA tech.

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2011, 05:54
by SpudmanWP
The size of the radar dish, even with AESA, is still important because it allows more of the returning energy to be collected and analyzed.

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2011, 06:51
by alloycowboy
@ Spudman...... Speaking of the size of the radar dishes I just had a thought. I wonder if it is possible to use "interferometry" like they do on Radio Telescope Arrays to get improved radar detection. Actually that would make perfect sense since all the F-35's in the line abreast formation would be networked.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometry

Check out the Video on the Alma Radio Telescope for a good explaination of Interferometry.

http://vimeo.com/user7108213/alma-opens-its-eyes

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2011, 07:16
by SpudmanWP
I don't even want to think about the amount of datalink traffic & computations required as the F-35s continually shift positions. Better to sync with the existing EWS in the wing bays (it they do not already do that).

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 flight formation......

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2014, 22:50
by phantasm
Many have said this devolves into a question of what Block vs what Block, but I would think across Blocks this picture remains the same in any 22 vs 35 duel until the major change of the Raptor finally getting an anti-stealth sensor in the form of a EODAS, IRST, A2A capable FLIR....
Or the APG 77 somehow getting a boost in it's own ability against VLO platforms - Not sure how that could happen


Still no word on what increment or upgrade might contain that technical capability....at this rate, the F-35 will be upgraded to the point of a Raptor and beyond, while the F -22 becomes a turtle in upgrades...


I suppose the other trick would be to reduce the RCS and observable aspects of the Raptor further over time, making it even harder for any missile the 35 throws at it to really see it, or track it or follow it - whether that be AMRAAM or Sidewinder.
the HOBS/JHMCS threat could even be reduced in that case.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2014, 23:19
by sprstdlyscottsmn
F-35 can already jam the F-22 radar and the F-35 can update the AMRAAM vie GPS coordinates using EOTS/DAS to collect data. The Raptor is blind and the F-35 is not.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2014, 10:22
by zero-one
The F-35 can jam the F-22s radar, but is the opposite also true? If they use the exact same T/R modules and the Raptor simply has more of them, and the software is available, I think the answer would be yes, right?

Not sure what the purpose of this thread is, as F-35 test pilots themselves (arguably the most knowledgable people on the F-35 program) are saying that the F-35 would have "problems" with the Raptor, and that the F-35 was designed to be second to the Raptor in A-A combat.

One possible weakness that the Raptor has is that it can only see in the radio spectrum, but we can also say that what it can see in that dimension is better than what any other plane can see there.

I know this analogy would suck but the F-22 is like Daredevil (comic book/ Ben Afleck :devil: )
Sure you could see and hear him at times and he can only hear you. But he can hear you so well that he can practically see through walls and stuff

His amazing Kinematic performance and ability to be harder to detect also also helps.

But its not long before DACT exercises between the 2 planes give us something totally expected or leave us shocked to say the least

Re:

Unread postPosted: 07 Apr 2014, 14:16
by hornetfinn
popcorn wrote:Here's something I've been wondering about for some time..
If one AESA radar has 2000 T/R modules and another AESA set has 1300 identical T/R modules, can we assume that they can detect target a/c at identical ranges? In theory, the more T/R modules the more modes that can be employed concurrently if supported by the back-end and its program but range should be similar, right?


Some good answers here for this already, but basically the situation is fairly simple if T/R modules (and general radar design) are the same/very similar. In that case the range performance is only really affected by the T/R module count and antenna area. As the modules are likely to be installed in similar manner, then the T/R module count is the only thing that affects the range performance.

Normal radar range equation tells us that the most significant things that affect the radar range is the output power (average power, not peak power), antenna gain (antenna area * antenna efficiency) and smallest detectable signal power and all kinds of different losses (transmit, reflection, receive, system, atmospheric). In your question the output power would be directly the number of T/R modules (single beam) and antenna gain would be directly the the antenna area as the efficiency for the two radar antennas would be very similar. Smallest detectable signal power would be very similar as it would depend on the actual receiver.

So the detection/tracking range for two radars with same T/R modules, but with different module count would be fairly closely directly proportional to the T/R module count. So a radar with 2000 modules would be able to detect/track the same target at about 50 percent longer distances than the one with 1300 modules. So let's assume the 1300 module radar can track a target at 100 km/miles/nm away. The radar with 2000 modules can then track the same target at about 150 km/miles/nm away. Of course it seems that APG-81 has about 1620 modules and APG-77 about 2000. This would mean that APG-81 should have roughly about 80 percent of the range performance of the APG-77, depending on the exact number of the modules in each radar.

Things get a bit more complicated when the radars have different T/R modules with different output power, different noise figures and the whole system different losses.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 17:31
by steve2267
I knew there had to be an F-35 vs F-22 thread somewhere...

I ran across this 5 second video clip on a Twitter feed. It shows how much smaller the F-35 is compared to the F-22, which, frankly, shocked me. I mean, I knew the F-35 was "smaller"... but didn't realize it was THIS smaller...

https://twitter.com/LockheedMartin/stat ... 1519837185

I then searched YouTube and found this clip, which I also found informative vis-a-vis relative Raptor to Panther size, beginning around the 35sec mark:


Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 19:43
by mixelflick
All this talk about TR modules, sensors, weapons etc really boils down to this: The Raptor holds several classified advantages over the F-35 (and every other airframe), which is why there is a law it can't be exported.

In other words in a 1 vs 1 engagement vs. the F-35, F-22 wins.

People can explain and complain about that until they're blue in the face, but the simple fact of the matter is that common sense says the Raptor has the advantage. If it didn't, why did we build it at all? There is something there that Trumps everything else, including the F-35. Only the USAF/pilots/LM really know however, and its a solid bet that it won't be revealed anytime soon.

Re: F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 20:20
by fbw
The APG-77v1 and APG-81 have the same TRM. From a specific article, it was my understanding that they were looking to standardize across their line of fighter AESA.