F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post16 Mar 2020, 20:30

...thought to... ...may have...

This is speculation, not facts.
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Unread post16 Mar 2020, 21:08

XanderCrews wrote:It actually kind of stinks because had the Brazilians passed, and after the Swiss dropped out that might have been the end of this, but Brazil went for it and now we have to go through with it so mighty brazil (with no enemies or threats) can produce 4 of them a year.


Just to complement what you said above:

- Brazil wasn't even going to select the Gripen. From all the three (3) finalists of their fighter program (FX-2), the Rafale, Super Hornet and Gripen the initial favorite was perceived to be the Rafale (because of both technical and above all political reasons) however the Rafale was deemed to be too expensive for Brazil.
After this the favorite was clearly the Super Hornet, specially by the Brazilian Air Force but also politically. However wikileaks came out and with that the NSA espionage scandal (of Brazilian government members and companies) and as such the Super Hornet was "disqualified".
This lead to the Gripen being the only aircraft left in the competition and as such being "the winner". This is actually funny since it means that in the only competition that the Gripen won, it actually didn't win (since it was the least favorite option of all three). :doh:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 10:28

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:...thought to... ...may have...

This is speculation, not facts.

True, but how often do you see facts on reported on EW systems? A lot of the information on fighter jets is classified however some of the information that is most closely guarded is on the EW systems. Apart from things like the Swiss leaks and anectotical information like from the Typhoon pilots, there is very limited info available.
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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 12:20

But the EW pod is still in development and isn't ready for release. They would have some EW now, but maybe a carry over from the C?
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loke

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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 12:43

optimist wrote:But the EW pod is still in development and isn't ready for release. They would have some EW now, but maybe a carry over from the C?

I was not referring to the EW pod in the postings above but the internal EW, which is a further development of the EW system in Gripen C (which got a high score in the Swiss eval). The internal EW system in Gripen E is referred to as MFS-EW (horribly acronym) and consist of GaN AESA modules. This is part of the overall self-protection system of Gripen E. It is a significant development of the EW system in Gripen C, using modern electronics. AFAIK the system consists of 4 AESA modules on the wings (two on each), 2 on the fin, and one under the belly, so a total of 7 modules for the internal EW; however there is also the AESA radar, so a total of 8 modules. It will take some time before all the functionality is there, but it's good to have the hardware in place; the rest is about software.

Some figures I saw also displayed the IR MAWs; a total of 6 of those, giving 360 degrees coverage to detect incoming IR missiles.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 15:11

loke wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:...thought to... ...may have...

This is speculation, not facts.

True, but how often do you see facts on reported on EW systems? A lot of the information on fighter jets is classified however some of the information that is most closely guarded is on the EW systems. Apart from things like the Swiss leaks and anectotical information like from the Typhoon pilots, there is very limited info available.

For the Barracuda, plenty. It factually jammed an F-22. It factually stopped red air F-16 from targeting blue air F-16s. It factually jammed AD radars to allow strike passages through. It factually geolocated a pop up threat in actual combat environments.

Facts. Recorded events. No maybes, no possibles, no mights, these are dids.
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loke

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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 16:32

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
loke wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:...thought to... ...may have...

This is speculation, not facts.

True, but how often do you see facts on reported on EW systems? A lot of the information on fighter jets is classified however some of the information that is most closely guarded is on the EW systems. Apart from things like the Swiss leaks and anectotical information like from the Typhoon pilots, there is very limited info available.

For the Barracuda, plenty. It factually jammed an F-22. It factually stopped red air F-16 from targeting blue air F-16s. It factually jammed AD radars to allow strike passages through. It factually geolocated a pop up threat in actual combat environments.

Facts. Recorded events. No maybes, no possibles, no mights, these are dids.

Regarding Gripen C EW suite: There are other stories similar to what the Typhoon pilots shared, but I am too busy to dig them out.

As you know Gripen E is not ready yet, thus not possible to share similar stories yet.

To me the Swiss leaks is a very interesting data point since the score was the result of careful evaluation of the EW suite in the Gripen C, by the Swiss air force.

No doubt other Western systems like the Barracuda are very good and some are better than what Gripen got; however that was not my point. My point was that the combo of the new EW suite that Gripen E is getting (which builds on the already good EW suite in Gripen C) together with new sensors, and improved sensor fusion, improved MMI (including HMD) should give the E an edge compared to what the Russians got. Add to that Meteor and IRIS-T and it seems to me that the Swedes should have a decent deterrence for quite some time, and probably until the Tempest starts to become ready. I am guessing that Sweden will then evaluate the situation; if Russia is considered a significant threat they can purchase some Tempest fighters early on and have a hi-low with Gripen E/F; otherwise they can delay the purchase of Tempest a bit, until it is more mature and has a lower price point.
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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 17:01

Bout time for a repeat post of substance.

Dead horse.jpg
But Gripens are great!

BP
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loke

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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 18:53

blindpilot wrote:Bout time for a repeat post of substance.

Dead horse.jpg

But Gripens are great!
BP

I did not say "Gripens are great!", I said "Gripen E is not great but probably good enough for Sweden".

You are clearly beating the wrong dead horse :P
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XanderCrews

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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 20:30

loke wrote:[
As you know Gripen E is not ready yet, thus not possible to share similar stories yet.



I'm probably 15 years from hearing about how a lone Gripen E beat F-35s approximately 127-0 at its first red flag.


No doubt other Western systems like the Barracuda are very good and some are better than what Gripen got; however that was not my point. My point was that the combo of the new EW suite that Gripen E is getting (which builds on the already good EW suite in Gripen C) together with new sensors, and improved sensor fusion, improved MMI (including HMD) should give the E an edge compared to what the Russians got. Add to that Meteor and IRIS-T and it seems to me that the Swedes should have a decent deterrence for quite some time,


I'm not directing this at you personally Loke, but the narrative for years with the F-35 was that the missiles would miss and the F-35 would lose dogfights to more nimble russkie jets. funny to see this narrative now.

60 Gripen Es. thats it.


probably until the Tempest starts to become ready. I am guessing that Sweden will then evaluate the situation; if Russia is considered a significant threat they can purchase some Tempest fighters early on and have a hi-low with Gripen E/F; otherwise they can delay the purchase of Tempest a bit, until it is more mature and has a lower price point.


its never going to be cheap, if it happens at all. Lets not make this Gripen NG the sequel,where its totally going to happen and be great and be affordable. its paper right now. the world is littered with mock ups that never went beyond that. dead programs abound.


sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
loke wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:...thought to... ...may have...

This is speculation, not facts.

True, but how often do you see facts on reported on EW systems? A lot of the information on fighter jets is classified however some of the information that is most closely guarded is on the EW systems. Apart from things like the Swiss leaks and anectotical information like from the Typhoon pilots, there is very limited info available.

For the Barracuda, plenty. It factually jammed an F-22. It factually stopped red air F-16 from targeting blue air F-16s. It factually jammed AD radars to allow strike passages through. It factually geolocated a pop up threat in actual combat environments.

Facts. Recorded events. No maybes, no possibles, no mights, these are dids.



After enduring the late 2000s and early 2010s with Gripen NG fans (Which as linkomart pointed out was so such a paper airplane they had multiple possible varaints being pitched to various nations) acting like the Gripen NG was already a done deal much superior to the troubled, omnishambles F-35 which had every fact or projection completely dismissed by Gripen fans, I'm having a blast.

I vowed earlier in the thread to that I will always call Gripen stuff out the way F-35 stuff was always called out. Its amazing how when put to the test a lot of the claims suddenly disappear. Who would have thought? Even a basic request for even a few sources turns up so little? who knew?

and with F-35 any good news was dismissed as a pentagon lie, propaganda, lying and bribed test pilots and other uniformed personnel etc. Absolutely awful. Anyone who challenged saabs numbers would get mountains of the "legacy Gripen" garbage as "proof"

Gripen NG: Never has so much hype flowed, by so many, for an airplane that did so little


Color me skeptical. Trust is hard to earn back once lost
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lbk000

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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 21:08

I'd like to know how the Gripen powers and cools this formidable EW suite with just a F414 pushing everything, especially considering electronics power and cooling was a major design driver for the F-35.
And don't give me that GaN bullshit.

Sacrifices had to be made, somewhere.
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loke

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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 22:11

lbk000 wrote:I'd like to know how the Gripen powers and cools this formidable EW suite with just a F414 pushing everything, especially considering electronics power and cooling was a major design driver for the F-35.
And don't give me that GaN bullshit.

Sacrifices had to be made, somewhere.

Who said anything about "formidable EW suite"? I just tried to argue that based on what we know about the current EW suite in Gripen C, and the changes in the electronics since then, the Gripen E EW suite should be a decent upgrade compared to what's currently in Gripen C.

Furthermore, the internal EW suite in Gripen E is for self protection only. So I don't think there is a need for massive power and cooling.
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Unread post17 Mar 2020, 22:37

XanderCrews wrote:I'm not directing this at you personally Loke, but the narrative for years with the F-35 was that the missiles would miss and the F-35 would lose dogfights to more nimble russkie jets. funny to see this narrative now.

60 Gripen Es. thats it.

I understand your frustration, I think we all on this forum agree that F-35 is formidable in both BVR and WVR, and will also do very well in a dogfight (although it will never come to that, it's probably more likely to be hit by an incoming meteor than enter into a dogfight (I mean the rocks falling from the sky, not the missile)).
XanderCrews wrote:
probably until the Tempest starts to become ready. I am guessing that Sweden will then evaluate the situation; if Russia is considered a significant threat they can purchase some Tempest fighters early on and have a hi-low with Gripen E/F; otherwise they can delay the purchase of Tempest a bit, until it is more mature and has a lower price point.


its never going to be cheap, if it happens at all. Lets not make this Gripen NG the sequel,where its totally going to happen and be great and be affordable. its paper right now. the world is littered with mock ups that never went beyond that. dead programs abound.

True -- nevertheless I still have some faith in the UK, and that they will be able to put together a team and make it happen. Hopefully they will have less political issues than what they had with Germany on the Typhoon program. I agree of course it is very early days and things may change, including cancellation but I still optimistic.

If both Tempest and the French/german/spanish thing are cancelled well then the only game in town will be the F-35. But I guess Europe somehow will manage to build something after the Eurocanards.
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Unread post18 Mar 2020, 09:51

It would accurately be 91 Gripen Es and 8 Fs, since the brazilians did order 28 Es and 8 Fs, and there were 3 development aircraft (s/no 39-8, 39-9 and 39-10) in addition to the 60 ordered by Sweden which are serially numbered 39-6001 onwards.

https://saab.com/gripen/our-fighters/users/

That's it. However, Saab is still offering the cheaper option to convert the older C/Ds into Es for potential customers since Sweden took the decision to have newbuild Es...
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Unread post18 Mar 2020, 10:10

weasel1962 wrote:the cheaper option to convert the older C/Ds into Es

This is a familiar claim but the more I think about it, the more it reeks. Between additional fuel tanks, a new, bigger engine, landing gear location changes, OML changes, there's not much left of the original aircraft.

Perhaps Saab can teach Boeing how to offer legacy-to-super Hornet conversions.
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