F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 07:22

SLIDE 3?
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weasel1962

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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 07:24

Its the "puny" para below that pic.

The chief benefits of TTNT include no network preplanning. TTNT uses Statistical Priority Multiple Access which allows for dynamic net join and exit, scalability, and automatic network capacity allocation. Multi-level traffic prioritization and class of service messaging ensures the delivery of key data, on time. This flexibility allows for simultaneous support of multiple widely varying traffic types, bursty traffic support, and line of sight long-range communications, tested at well over 300 nm.


If I'm not wrong, they're fielding TTNT into JTRS in 2021. Its high speed data transfer up to 100nm but with lower speeds out beyond 300nm.
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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 07:34

weasel1962 wrote:Without making any claims of any kind, just a bit more info on the Gripen.

Last line useful in link below...
https://www.flightcommagazine.com/singl ... -data-link

http://sesam.smart-lab.se/seminarier/Ho ... Gripen.pdf


Yes,only that things has evolved since 13 years ago... And that was a public presentation. And that is all I can say about that.

Whe you make comparisions between F-35 and "generation 4" you compare to the F-16. It's ok because you don't have the information about the performance of other airplanes links and sensor fusion. Lets just say that things work a bit different in the 39, not saying that it is better, because of course I don't know all the details about the US systems.


regards
Last edited by linkomart on 19 Feb 2020, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.
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weasel1962

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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 07:42

Not comparing but Gripen NG uses the TIDLS which still runs on TDMA at least for the moment (and as far as I understand).

https://saab.com/globalassets/commercia ... ochure.pdf

Will post when I get more data on CDL 39.
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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 07:50

I think the difference will be what you are feeding in and out. Small area data link tech is pretty available. As an interested bystander, I find it helps to think about smartphones, phone towers and apps. To keep my head around it.
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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 07:57

Nice analogy. The datalink e.g. MADL being the phone and TTNT being the network e.g. 3G or 5G.
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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 09:02

The really nice apps they run over the local 'WIFI' enabling networks. It's a step up from messenger, google maps and facebook groups, that I use
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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 14:00

Range between points and the medium dictate flow rate. MADL has huge data rates when aircraft are a few dozen kilometers apart. I imagine it is even better as they get closer together.
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steve2267

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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 15:41

weasel1962 wrote:Nice analogy. The datalink e.g. MADL being the phone and TTNT being the network e.g. 3G or 5G.


Hope I'm not confusing the terms, but it sounds like
  • MADL is the physical network layer analogous to CAT-6 cable, just that it is LPI, secure and works across distances without wires :drool:
  • TTNT is the logical network layer over top of which can run TCP and/or IP. TTNT would be analogous, then, to DSL (maybe too broad?) or PPP

Am I close?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 21:15

steve2267 wrote:
Am I close?


If phone is going to be used then..

A modern phone (Pocket PC) can use (communicate) over various wireless networks including WiFi and 4G etc.

The "phone" on an F-35 would be most like the CNI suite which can use the wireless networks MADL and Link16.


I get the impression TTNP is a follow on or replacement for Link16 - it appears to be a network that is faster, more secure, and better with dynamic nodes etc but is still able to work alongside Link16 networks as well.
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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 22:15

lukfi wrote:It sort of does, though. The most important part of what defines a generation are capabilities. Not whether the plane is a biplane or monoplane. Obviously you can't tack stealth onto a 4th generation design (you can reduce RCS but never to the extent of stealth airframes), so that's kind of special, and that's why the 4.5th gen moniker exists. But you can take a 3rd generation airframe and give it pulse-doppler look-down/shoot-down radar, RWR/EW, HUD, BVR and air-to-ground capabilities, and what you have is a 4th gen fighter.


I'm pretty sure most what you listed there the F-4 already had?

but even then what you have if you added F-16 tech is an improved 3rd generation fighter. the whole notion of Generations is that the difference is so great, you simply can't update the past into the new cutting edge. Technology marches on.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SolidPassiona ... mobile.mp4

improvements in tech, avionics, design, tactics, computers, materials, safety, maintenance practices (like say LRUs and BITE you were telling us about that aren't in 3rd generation aircraft) and requirements not to mention legitimate technological breakthroughs (powerplants especially), etc over the years facilitate the "generational leap" another interesting aspect of the 4th generation was combining aircraft for example the Marines retired the A-6 and F-4 in favor of the F/A-18. I'm not exactly how we would have made an A-6 into a 4th generation fighter, or a F-4 for that matter. unless you want to argue I can give an F-5 Gripen E avionics and call it all the same. :mrgreen: or we can break out the old Viggen and just add Gripen Magic to that as well. (why did they bother replacing it?) How about the EA-6B? what amount of whiz bang do I throw into that to make it like a Growler?

If you're arguing from a broad "what does it all mean man?" philosophical waxing then it probably belongs in another thread. but as far as technical and official and reality is concerned there are very hard lines between generations, and by definition with very few exceptions there is little to no cross over. You can compare the difference between the F-15 designed and fielded in the last 1960s, and early 1970s respectively with the F-22 designed in the 1990s and fielded in the mid 2000s and see the rather stark contrast and no F-15X is not the same. Its an improved 4th generation airplane but it will never be an F-22.

Speaking of the F-22, I think theres something that needs to be brought up early and often with the Fifth generation fighters. Since F-22 is non exportable and now out of production, the F-35 is often compared to generation 4 and 4.5 fighters, as that's usually who F-35 competes with abroad and in the headlines, but I want to make something clear.

Image

The F-35 is a fifth generation fighter and will always have more in common with the F-22 than it ever will with a Super Hornet, or whatever else is on offer, and is the best fighter in the world short of an F-22. I feel this sometimes gets lost in the shuffle of people comparing silly things like the F-35s top speed of mach 1.6 vs the SH's mach 1.8 and other inane factoids that don't really tell the whole story of just how above the Super Hornet the F-35 really is and how the F-35 is driving the standard and raising the bar while everyone else tries to play catch up.

There will be overlap, as I said before. The EE lightning of old could super cruise, that doesn't mean its an F-22. one or two common traits might still not tell the tale either as again the scope and breadth and depth of the overlap may be more of a stark contrast than realized by the layman

I'm not going to go on in too much depth about this one. I feel like this one has been beaten to death repeatedly and the "waxing philosophical" aside the generations are firmly recognized by all involved. some guy on the internet trying to convince the world you can make an F-4 4th generation by changing out its radar and cockpit features won't change that.
The rest is basically coping and desperate attempts we've been seeing for years and years that are hardly unbiased, and are often promoted online by companies that have stakes in sowing fear uncertaincty and doubt and muddying the waters as much as possible to give their aircraft a shot in multibillion dollar competitions. nothing new under the sun. pretty good, but not all encompassing of course, list:

3rd gen

The 1960s to approximately 1970 produced aircraft with increased maneuverability and ground attack capabilities, combined with the introduction of guided missiles. The F-4 Phantom and MiG-23 are examples of third-generation aircraft. Doppler radar supported a ‘lookdown/shoot-down’ capability, and with off-bore-sight targeting and semi-active radar guided missiles like the AIM-7 Sparrow and AA-7 Apex, aerial engagements moved to beyond visual range. The major change brought about by this generation aircraft was that it was no longer necessary to visually acquire opponents to neutralize them and gain control of the air.

Fourth-Generation (1970 to mid-1990s)

Between approximately 1970 and the mid-1990s, aircraft were characterized by their multi-role configurations and equipped with sophisticated avionics and weapons systems. Common characteristics of this generation of fighter jets were; 9G capability, turbofan engine, HUD, glass cockpit, computer technology, thrust to weight ratio of 1.1 or more and multi-target engagement capability. The F/A-18A Hornet, MiG-29, Su-27, F-16C/D and JAS-39 are examples of the fourth-generation fighter aircraft.

Four-and-a-half Generation (mid-1990s to 2005)

The terms fourth-plus or four-and-a-half generation have been used to encompass fourth-generation aircraft with fifth-generation capabilities. This generation of aircraft from the mid-1990’s until 2005 are often modified fourth-generation aircraft with significantly enhanced capabilities. The US FY2010 Defense Authorization Act defined four-and-a-half generation as current aircraft, including the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18, that have advanced capabilities, including active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, high capacity data-links and enhanced avionics, and have the ability to deploy current and reasonably foreseeable advanced armaments. They are commonly identified by signature reduction, helmet-mounted sights, GPS-guided weapons and highly integrated systems. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, F-16E/F/V, JAS-39N, F-15E/SA, Rafale, EuroFighter, MiG-35 and Su-35 are examples of a four-and-a-half generation fighter aircraft.

Fifth-Generation (2005 to date)

Combining new developments such as thrust vectoring, composite materials, super cruise (the ability to cruise at supersonic speeds without using engine afterburners), stealth technology, advanced radar and fully integrated avionics and sensors, the fifth-generation fighter aircraft are characterized by low observability (including the use of internal weapons bays), vastly improved situational awareness through a network-centric combat environment and the design ability to act as an integrated data node. The era of the 5th Generation Fighter Jet was ushered in with the introduction of the USAF F-22 Raptor air superiority platform in 2005. Several Fifth Generation Fighters are in development including the US F-35 Lightning II, Chinese J-20 and J-35, the Russian T-50/Su-57 PAK-FA, Korean KF-X and the Turkish TF-X.

As of March 2018, the only fully-operational and combat ready, Fifth-Generation Fighters are; the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor, which entered service with the USAF in 2005; the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, which entered service in 2015 and the Chengdu J-20, which entered service with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) in September 2017. Whereas, the Sukhoi Su-57/T-50 is scheduled to enter Russian Air Force service in 2019. The KF-X, Shenyang J-31 and TF-X are currently under early stages of development process.

In order to minimize their Radar Cross Section (RCS), all fifth-generation fighters use chines instead of standard leading-edge extensions and lack canards, and they all have twin canted vertical tails (similar to a V-tail) also to minimize side RCS. Most fifth-generation fighters features super maneuverability that achieved through thrust vectoring capability on the engines. All fifth-generation fighters have internal weapon bays in order to avoid high RCS weapon pylons, but they all also able to fitted with external hard-points on their wings for use on non-stealthy missions, such as the external fuel tanks the F-22 carries when deploying to a new theatre. All fifth-generation fighters have a high percentage of composite materials, in order to reduce RCS and weight. All known fifth-generation designs have extensive electronic warfare systems. Thanks to their great radar (AESA) and sensor fusion features and all-aspect stealth characteristics the fifth-generation aircraft can perform their mission anywhere, even in sophisticated integrated air defense environments. Their all-aspect, day/night low observability (stealth) feature minimizes their exposure and susceptibility to enemy’s advanced SAM systems and allows them to hold enemy targets at risk and to engage air threats before detection. Stealth feature provides fifth-generation fighter jets first look, first shot and first kill advantage over their older generation adversaries. Due to their network-centric combat capabilities the fifth-generation fighter jets will be able to operate together in a ‘combat cloud’ along with future unmanned combat aircraft (UCAVs).

So, 5th generation fighters provide air superiority and global precision attack against today’s, and tomorrow’s air and ground threats.
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Unread post19 Feb 2020, 22:39

XanderCrews wrote:
I'm pretty sure most what you listed there the F-4 already had?

but even then what you have if you added F-16 tech is an improved 3rd generation fighter. the whole notion of Generations is that the difference is so great, you simply can't update the past into the new cutting edge. Technology marches on.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SolidPassiona ... mobile.mp4



Now a F-4 fanboy would take that and say the f-4 flys circles around the F-16. Sound familiar with misrepresenting stuff? :mrgreen:
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/run+circles+around
If you're arguing from a broad "what does it all mean man?" philosophical waxing then it probably belongs in another thread. but as far as technical and official and reality is concerned there are very hard lines between generations, and by definition with very few exceptions there is little to no cross over. You can compare the difference between the F-15 designed and fielded in the last 1960s, and early 1970s respectively with the F-22 designed in the 1990s and fielded in the mid 2000s and see the rather stark contrast and no F-15X is not the same. Its an improved 4th generation airplane but it will never be an F-22.

Then add the cost of adding tech to the f-15 platform and the finished cost. It's not worth the exercise for the finished products capabilities. Better to scrap F-15x and move on, or it's just lipstick on a pig.
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Unread post20 Feb 2020, 08:37

Xandercrews wrote:Thanks to their great radar (AESA) and sensor fusion features and all-aspect stealth characteristics the fifth-generation aircraft can perform their mission anywhere, even in sophisticated integrated air defense environments. Their all-aspect, day/night low observability (stealth) feature minimizes their exposure and susceptibility to enemy’s advanced SAM systems and allows them to hold enemy targets at risk and to engage air threats before detection. Stealth feature provides fifth-generation fighter jets first look, first shot and first kill advantage over their older generation adversaries.


What really seals the deal is the EW/EA going through a 10-20kw AESA radar antenna. Any gaps in aspect RCS will be more than covered by such a powerful jamming signal working on a low RCS which need less power to jam to start with. This is how F-35s will be able to go to the doorstep of powerful fire-control S-400 radars and drop LGBs on their heads. Radar is now impotent against stealthy 5th gens with EW/EA, it will require IR counter-attacks but even then 5th gens have detailed complex IR reduction techniques applied to them. Russia knows it's lost this one which is why it's not throwing its fighter-bombers weight around any more, they are strictly for defensive purposes now ;). It's going to lose the next one too when the hypersonic 6th gen SR-72 is developed and produced.
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Unread post20 Feb 2020, 15:35

marsavian wrote:It's going to lose the next one too when the hypersonic 6th gen SR-72 is developed and produced.


Watching too much Top Gun 2 trailers aren't you? :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post21 Feb 2020, 23:41

I don't know about the vs F-35, but first it will need to match the F-16. This is the more high perfomance C
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