F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

[hornetfinn]

F-35A has 64% more weight than JAS-39E (13100kg vs 8000kg), 69% bigger wing area than JAS-39E (43m^2 vs 25.5m^2), 95% more thrust (43000lbs vs 22000lbs), and less wing sweep (more lift increase as AOA increases, more responsive in a pull-up maneuver).

Can JAS39 do this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJLoW1ClNE0

And when you add weapons and fuel, it gets even worse for JAS 39E. Especially with heavier carriage, the difference is magnified especially when taking into account that Gripen will need EFTs to get anywhere and has huge amount of drag to overcome with that small engine.

[mixelflick]

Certainly not, no Gripen can approach this turn rate - especially loaded with weapons/fuel. To be fair though, how many aircraft can pull that move off? The F-15? No. F-16?? Nope Flanker??? Possible, but only IF it's clean. No combat capable aircraft I know of can do it.

The F-22 can (and then some) and it's a good bet the SU-57 will be able to do so when operational. As for the J-20, it looks like it can turn but not nearly as aggressively. There really is no comparison between the F-35 and Gripen (any model), and arguments to the contrary are ludicrous.

It's a zippy little fighter that countries like Brazil will serve well. Should give any other aircraft in the area a good run for its money, which is all Brazil intends for them IMO. If I were SAAB though, I'd ditch the Gripen E and move into unmanned systems. The US lead in manned stealth aircraft is too large, and they lack the resources it would take to mount a meaningful effort tp create an alternative.

They're throwing everything they have at the Gripen E, and its failing miserably on the world market..

[XanderCrews]

It's a zippy little fighter that countries like Brazil will serve well. Should give any other aircraft in the area a good run for its money, which is all Brazil intends for them IMO. If I were SAAB though, I'd ditch the Gripen E and move into unmanned systems.

you think too small. If Saab was as amazing its fan believe and everything about range, cost, efficiency, performance were true they'd build a better 737 and rule the world...

the funniest part too would be everytime the Gripen falls short they blame politics, but if you can show a private airline business you offer more for less, there is no government to really interfere. Saab would live up to the hype and make money-- no excuses. Hell Brazil has an airline industry.

But of course thats not the case, so they stick to trying to sell not even F-16s to Brazil

[ricnunes]

It's a zippy little fighter that countries like Brazil will serve well. Should give any other aircraft in the area a good run for its money, which is all Brazil intends for them IMO.

Even here, I have very strong reservations. For instance:
The Venezuelans have the Su-30MKV. In theory the Gripen E should have more advanced equipment/sensors such as the Radar. But on the other hand the Su-30 has a bigger (and more powerful radar) and has a longer range and should also have better performance in other flight parameters. So I doubt that I would make a bet (at least a serious one) in a fight between the Gripen E and the Su-30MKV.
Chile has the F-16 Block 50/52. While and also in theory the Gripen E should be "more advanced" in terms of sensors/avionics than the F-16 Block 50/52 the later has better performance than the former (as it was discussed in several threads here). Besides, the Chileans also have the possibility to upgrade their F-16s to the F-16V standard and IMO the F-16V should give the Gripen E "a good run for its money", this in general terms.

Regarding the Brazilians, one also have to understand/remember that the favorite contender or more precisely the contender that was closer to win was the Super Hornet and not the Gripen E. The only reason why the Gripen E won in Brazil was because the NSA "spying scandal" of Brazilian government officials and companies after which the Brazilians eliminated the Super Hornet as some sort of "retaliatory measure".

If I were SAAB though, I'd ditch the Gripen E and move into unmanned systems. The US lead in manned stealth aircraft is too large, and they lack the resources it would take to mount a meaningful effort tp create an alternative.

If I were Saab, I would seriously team up with BAE in the Tempest program. One can say that currently Saab is more or less teamed up with BAE regarding the Tempest but that seems to be an on-and-off association and it's definitely not a 100% commitment. IMO the only reason why Saab isn't fully committed to the Tempest program is because of the Gripen E since joining up with the Tempest program as a full partner would IMO be like saying/admitting that the Gripen E is already an outdated aircraft with little to no value in future warfare (which by the way, would be the truth!).

They're throwing everything they have at the Gripen E, and its failing miserably on the world market..

Absolutely, as you can read in the example above.

[F-16ADF]

This probably should be on the F-16 v Gripen thread. Words from Lt Colonel Simastuen of the Norwegian Air Force:

And according to this doc, Gripen is limited to 26 Degree AOA:

[XanderCrews]

This probably should be on the F-16 v Gripen thread. Words from Lt Colonel Simastuen of the Norwegian Air Force:

F-16 Gripen Polar Cap 2004-5.jpg

And according to this doc, Gripen is limited to 26 Degree AOA:

And now remember that the Gripen E is heavier with worse T/W than the original "39"

[ricnunes]

And now remember that the Gripen E is heavier with worse T/W than the original "39"

Maybe they can call it a "69" to better appeal to the internacional market...

[gta4]

This probably should be on the F-16 v Gripen thread. Words from Lt Colonel Simastuen of the Norwegian Air Force:

F-16 Gripen Polar Cap 2004-5.jpg

And according to this doc, Gripen is limited to 26 Degree AOA:

Haha so glad to see that I am not the only one who remember this article

[eloise]

Chile has the F-16 Block 50/52. While and also in theory the Gripen E should be "more advanced" in terms of sensors/avionics than the F-16 Block 50/52 the later has better performance than the former (as it was discussed in several threads here). Besides, the Chileans also have the possibility to upgrade their F-16s to the F-16V standard and IMO the F-16V should give the Gripen E "a good run for its money", this in general terms.

F-16V will have better acceleration than Gripen E, but the later has GaN radar with adequate cooling and internal IRST, Gripen can carry higher number of towed decoy too

[weasel1962]

Don't recall the ES-05 radar being GaN based...(Swedish meatball) sauce?

[eloise]

Don't recall the ES-05 radar being GaN based...(Swedish meatball) sauce?

Sorry the jamming system is GaN rather than the radar

58CEEB64-2D6A-4966-BDE1-024807FE3B83.jpeg (72.74 KiB) Viewed 83033 times

But I think ES-05 is still better than APG-83 because F-16V doesn't have the cooling upgrade

[weasel1962]

I'm confused. Am I seeing a comparison of a not fielded EW pod (albeit with some GaN tech) against an F-16 AESA radar? How is that relevant....?

On the other hand, the F-16 has an EW that's combat tested in multiple real life combat engagements against multiple bogies, benefits from decades of ELINT to create a software library to handle the necessary threats. What kind of software and actual combat validation has the gripen? playing flight simulations? I'm sure, in theory, its all good.

[ricnunes]

Don't recall the ES-05 radar being GaN based...(Swedish meatball) sauce?

Sorry the jamming system is GaN rather than the radar

Thanks for clearing that up.

But I think ES-05 is still better than APG-83 because F-16V doesn't have the cooling upgrade

On the other hand the APG-83 should be bigger (with more modules?) and probably have more power available to it and it's based on the best radar ever fitted on a fighter aircraft, the APG-81 (which by itself is based on the APG-77).

So and because of this, I think/believe that the APG-83 is better than the ES-05.

[marsavian]

The ES-05 will have a 200 degree FOV and its non-aesa predecessor in Thailand's Gripen C did very well in BVR against Chinese Su-27 N001 radar and how big is that radar ? I suspect the ES-05 is more APG-80 level than APG-83 as they will be able to spec the liquid cooling part optimally as it's not a drop in replacement like the APG-83.

[gta4]

The lack of cooling is for weight saving purpose. I remember reading somewhere the SARB radar is even lighter than the older APG-68.