F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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irt

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 19:51

steve2267 wrote:
irt wrote:Cost for 32 F35 and the stuff needed to operate them = $6.5 billion = $203 milion per plane... Wow!
Cost for 36 Gripen E/F and the stuff needed to operate them = SEK39.6 billion = $4.16 billion = $115 million per plane...
Cpfh of the F35 =$35000.
Cpfh of Gripen E = a lot less than $35000...

$203.000.000 per plane!

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....


What are the opportunity costs for Poland? For Brazil?


Sorry I don't understand what you mean by opportunity cost.
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notkent

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 19:55

irt wrote:Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Aircraft and thirty-three (33) . Also included are ... Full Mission Trainer; ... aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment;


Saab has won a $5.4 billion contract for the development and production of 36 Gripen NG fighter for Brazil.



What about the extra engine included in the Poland bid or all the other stuff that is not listed for the Gripen. How much more will it cost per plane once the rest of the stuff is added in. Unless the Gripen does not need spares and repair parts ...
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irt

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 20:07

notkent wrote:
irt wrote:Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Aircraft and thirty-three (33) . Also included are ... Full Mission Trainer; ... aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment;


Saab has won a $5.4 billion contract for the development and production of 36 Gripen NG fighter for Brazil.



What about the extra engine included in the Poland bid or all the other stuff that is not listed for the Gripen. How much more will it cost per plane once the rest of the stuff is added in. Unless the Gripen does not need spares and repair parts ...


Both deals include everything needed to operate the planes, service, training of pilots etc.. Brazil deal include development of a 2 seater version, manufacturing in brazil, and if i understand everything they can sell them to other countries in South america. Then they get get full transfer of technology and knowledge to develop their own planes in the future.
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hythelday

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 22:09

@irt

Wanna bet? F-35A vs Gripen E for Finland? Your rules, 20€ cap. If Gripen is so great then it should have no problem in the most neutral of competitions?
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botsing

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 22:11

irt wrote:Both deals include everything needed to operate the planes, service, training of pilots etc..

So Brazil also gets extra engines for the Gripen with that deal?
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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ricnunes

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 22:29

irt wrote:Both deals include everything needed to operate the planes, service, training of pilots etc.. Brazil deal include development of a 2 seater version, manufacturing in brazil, and if i understand everything they can sell them to other countries in South america. Then they get get full transfer of technology and knowledge to develop their own planes in the future.


- The Brazilian deal does NOT include extra engines as does the Polish deal.
- The Brazilian deal does NOT include EO Targeting Pods while in the case of the Polish deal they are included since they are part (come included) with the aircraft (F-35).
- Brazil is a partner nation/member of the Gripen E program while Poland is NOT a JSF member, so what does this mean? It means that Brazil will pay the cheapest price possible for each aircraft since partner nations have massive discounts when purchasing the aircraft while on the other hand Poland will pay a more expensive price for the F-35 specially when compared to any JSF partner/nation.
In this regard a much fair comparison would be to compare the Brazilian Gripen E contract with a similar contract of F-35s by a JSF partner nation such as for example Netherlands or Norway or Denmark, etc...

Speaking of which, Denmark (a JSF member/nation) purchased 27 F-35As for a total cost of $3.05 Billion USD which translates to a cost of $112 million USD per plane (cheaper than what Brazil pays for each Gripen according to your calculations/data). Source:
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-danis ... eal-2016-6

Regarding the "full transfer of technology and knowledge", yeah keep dreaming with that! For starters the engine is American build (GE) and as such I'm 100% sure that this is vital piece of technology and knowledge won't be transferred to the Brazilians. And the engine is not the only US made part on the Gripen and as such not the only part whose technology and knowledge won't be transferred to the Brazilians.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Jan 2020, 23:47

irt wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
irt wrote:Cost for 32 F35 and the stuff needed to operate them = $6.5 billion = $203 milion per plane... Wow!
Cost for 36 Gripen E/F and the stuff needed to operate them = SEK39.6 billion = $4.16 billion = $115 million per plane...
Cpfh of the F35 =$35000.
Cpfh of Gripen E = a lot less than $35000...

$203.000.000 per plane!

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....


What are the opportunity costs for Poland? For Brazil?


Sorry I don't understand what you mean by opportunity cost.


When Brazil's Gripen's are shot down in a war, OR Brazil is unable to perform a mission because the Gripen E's will be shot down... that is going to end up costing a lot.

On the other hand... I suppose one could argue "it's South America... who is going to shoot down Brazil's Gripens?" So, from that perspective, I suppose, Brazil done good to spend far less money for a far less capable aircraft.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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ricnunes

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Unread post15 Jan 2020, 00:21

steve2267 wrote:"it's South America... who is going to shoot down Brazil's Gripens?"


A flying bag of cocaine :devil:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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marsavian

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Unread post15 Jan 2020, 00:56

The Polish F-35 order will be recalculated as it was the original that assumed offsets which the Poles figured would not be worth the expense. F-35/Super Hornet/Gripen E are all roughly in the same export price range but Gripen only has half the thrust of the other two as well as not being VLO so unless you really like its sensors/equipment or are denied the F-35 or figure it will be cheaper to run for you; the Gripen will always be an outsider in these open competitions.
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Unread post15 Jan 2020, 02:15

steve2267 wrote:
When Brazil's Gripen's are shot down in a war, OR Brazil is unable to perform a mission because the Gripen E's will be shot down... that is going to end up costing a lot.

On the other hand... I suppose one could argue "it's South America... who is going to shoot down Brazil's Gripens?" So, from that perspective, I suppose, Brazil done good to spend far less money for a far less capable aircraft.




What if another South American Country (Chile, Colombia, Peru, or Venezuela) buys a Stealth Fighter like the J-31 from China....

Then Brazil's Fighter Fleet is pretty much obsolete.... :|
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ricnunes

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Unread post15 Jan 2020, 16:06

Corsair1963 wrote:What if another South American Country (Chile, Colombia, Peru, or Venezuela) buys a Stealth Fighter like the J-31 from China....

Then Brazil's Fighter Fleet is pretty much obsolete.... :|


I would say that something like that from Chile is extremely unlikely. Chile is well integrated with the "western world" and in terms of military purchases they buy American or European being their fighter aircraft, the F-16 a prime example of this.
Colombia is also and IMO unlikely where most of its military equipment is either western (US or European) and Israeli.

But regarding Peru or Venezuela, yes I agree there's a good chance that these countries could end up buying something like the J-31 in the future.
Even the current Venezuelan fleet of Su-30's is in theory (i.e. excluding its current airworthiness, whatever that might be) a force to be recon with regarding South America and potentially even against something like the Gripen (specially if the Su-30 fleet is to receive upgrades/updates in the future).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post15 Jan 2020, 17:38

irt wrote:
Cost for 32 F35 and the stuff needed to operate them = $6.5 billion = $203 milion per plane... Wow!
Cost for 36 Gripen E/F and the stuff needed to operate them = SEK39.6 billion = $4.16 billion = $115 million per plane...
Cpfh of the F35 =$35000.

Cpfh of Gripen E = a lot less than $35000...

$203.000.000 per plane!

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....


In October 2014, Brazil signed a SEK39.3 billion (US$ 5.4 billion) contract for the purchase of 36 F-X2 Gripen E/F fighters.

uhhhhhhhhh

try again. plus Poland has to pay additional FMS and R and D fees included in the cost. Hell the Polish deal includes the cost of the aerial refueling across the Atlantic.

"A lot less than $35000" how much "a lot less"?? lets remember that we are looking at an extremely limited production run, with an airplane that has next to know parts commonality with its predecessor.

Your numbers A. curious different when provided at all and B. not provided. "a lot less" Sure bud. why not? if you're gonna lie, really go for the gusto. Saab taught me that.

One of the things that works against he Gripen and we've already seen this rear its ugly head is its supposed to be uber cheap compared to its rivals, and then suddenly it is not. If an F-35 ends up costing at or about that of an F-16, and the Gripen E is at or about the cost of an F-16 both in cost and CPFH I think the Gripen E is a total disaster in that case and thats not far fetched at all BTW.

whats the point of it again?

I've seen that Brazil cost explained several different way by commenters who have no idea whats included specfiically. Some even went so far as to say that included the cost of building the factory and even room and board for Brazilian engineers living in Sweden. This was all in response to the cost being pretty high.

to cost 75 percent of an ultra expensive F-35 soup to nuts is not exactly a "win" but you enjoy it and sit back and wonder why its sales suffer. India is its only hope now.

marsavian wrote:The Polish F-35 order will be recalculated as it was the original that assumed offsets which the Poles figured would not be worth the expense. F-35/Super Hornet/Gripen E are all roughly in the same export price range but Gripen only has half the thrust of the other two as well as not being VLO so unless you really like its sensors/equipment or are denied the F-35 or figure it will be cheaper to run for you; the Gripen will always be an outsider in these open competitions.



Yep. and this is the part where we have to pretend an F-35 and Gripen E are even a 1 for 1 equivalency. if it takes 2 Gripen Es (and this is being very generous) to do what an F-35 can, why not just buy 1 F-35 and be done?
Last edited by XanderCrews on 15 Jan 2020, 19:39, edited 3 times in total.
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Unread post15 Jan 2020, 17:43

irt wrote:
notkent wrote:
irt wrote:Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Aircraft and thirty-three (33) . Also included are ... Full Mission Trainer; ... aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment;


Saab has won a $5.4 billion contract for the development and production of 36 Gripen NG fighter for Brazil.



What about the extra engine included in the Poland bid or all the other stuff that is not listed for the Gripen. How much more will it cost per plane once the rest of the stuff is added in. Unless the Gripen does not need spares and repair parts ...


Both deals include everything needed to operate the planes, service, training of pilots etc.. Brazil deal include development of a 2 seater version, manufacturing in brazil, and if i understand everything they can sell them to other countries in South america. Then they get get full transfer of technology and knowledge to develop their own planes in the future.


Image

and by all means if you have the line by line cost breakdown of what is precisely included with the Brazil deal please share it with the class. We have been wondering for years now. Even your answer there is elusive regarding the spare engines. Thats something that if we could see the deal should be clearly spelled out. does "everything needed to operate" include extra engines? if so how many? you have no idea.

Argentina’s Defense Minister Agustin Rossi surprised just about everybody when he announced on Oct. 21 that his government intended to buy 24 Saab Gripen E fighters to re-equip his nation’s ancient Air Force.

But Rossi’s request appeared to ignore a likely insurmountable hurdle to the sale: Britain, its longtime foe, has a near veto on the export of the combat jet as a result of the substantial number of UK systems in the jet. More than 30 percent of the new version of the Gripen being developed by Saab is supplied by British industry.


Listen man, I hear enough saab lies I don't need them repeated here. This is a grown up board. if you want to repeat untrue propaganda there's plenty of places to post it. What we try to preserve here is the notion of analysis and input using things we learned already in the thread, in this case what you post was debunked years ago. we try to analyze things here thats the purpose of these boards. If you want to come in and start dropping false info from years back then I suggest you leave. the point of this board is to look beyond what the company claims into what we call the "real world". If one doesn't do that these discussions quickly devolve into who can slap the company commercial pamphlet propaganda up the fastest and honestly it gets boring fast.


Brazil clearly does not have the authority you claim. Not even Saab does in fact seeing as its an american engine and huge chunks are UK made LOL. Thats what happens when you take everyone elses already developed stuff and pop it onto or into your "100 percent organic homegrown swedish fighter." thats actually a conglomeration of international supply in an effort to keep the cost low. hell even brazil is backing off the number of fighters that will actually be built there. The idea of splitting an aircraft order thats not even at 100 across 2 lines is absolutely redundant and begging for cost increases. why build 100 aircraft with 1 line when you can split unevenly between 2? thats some real big think there...

lastly we have wonderful cost breakdown of not just F-35 costs but precisely what is included in them as well, which is amazing because its a big fat lie of an expensive jet built in the hundreds, and the Gripen E is super cheap and honest and yet we can't find similar equivalent breakdowns and not even a dozen have been built. isn't that bizarre??? how strange
You'd think they'd be happy to show everything the way those wacky Americans do but for some reason those numbers are buried and we have to rely on what people say saab says. (not that that's a conflict of interest or anything)

So anyway. You need to read through the thread. It gets very tiresome reading the same thing for the 1000th time. the Gripen E is very little of what was claimed. and again its been a disaster in terms of the Frankenstein monster its become. They took a great little fighter, a great little concept and just wrecked the entire thing.

This is very straightforward. If the uber gold plated F-35A ends up being a fly away cost of at or around 80 million and the cheap and simple Gripen E ends up being a flyaway cost of at or around 80 million thats great for the F-35A, and an absolute failure for the Gripen E. and thats increasingly what its looking like. We aren't even sure if the Gripen E is going to have a noticeably lower price tag than the Super Hornet of late model vipers. its extremely tight in a contest that shouldn't even be that close.

I'll close on this one. The Gripen NG/Gripen E/F has been "in development" for over a decade. There are still numbers floating round from the late 2000's that have never been true that are bandied about as irrefutable fact for an airplane that still is in test and only a few years ago even had its first flight. sorting through the garbage is an endless task. you fell for it, but hopefully you can still be redpilled.

This isn't my first BBQ, I can go toe to toe and you're already clearly beyond your depth. you can see a lot of this stuff covered already right down to some of the saab fanboys admitting they drank the kool-aid too soon.
Last edited by XanderCrews on 15 Jan 2020, 19:42, edited 8 times in total.
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Unread post16 Jan 2020, 18:20

ricnunes wrote:
irt wrote:Both deals include everything needed to operate the planes, service, training of pilots etc.. Brazil deal include development of a 2 seater version, manufacturing in brazil, and if i understand everything they can sell them to other countries in South america. Then they get get full transfer of technology and knowledge to develop their own planes in the future.


- The Brazilian deal does NOT include extra engines as does the Polish deal.
- The Brazilian deal does NOT include EO Targeting Pods while in the case of the Polish deal they are included since they are part (come included) with the aircraft (F-35).
- Brazil is a partner nation/member of the Gripen E program while Poland is NOT a JSF member, so what does this mean? It means that Brazil will pay the cheapest price possible for each aircraft since partner nations have massive discounts when purchasing the aircraft while on the other hand Poland will pay a more expensive price for the F-35 specially when compared to any JSF partner/nation.
In this regard a much fair comparison would be to compare the Brazilian Gripen E contract with a similar contract of F-35s by a JSF partner nation such as for example Netherlands or Norway or Denmark, etc...

Speaking of which, Denmark (a JSF member/nation) purchased 27 F-35As for a total cost of $3.05 Billion USD which translates to a cost of $112 million USD per plane (cheaper than what Brazil pays for each Gripen according to your calculations/data). Source:
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-danis ... eal-2016-6

Regarding the "full transfer of technology and knowledge", yeah keep dreaming with that! For starters the engine is American build (GE) and as such I'm 100% sure that this is vital piece of technology and knowledge won't be transferred to the Brazilians. And the engine is not the only US made part on the Gripen and as such not the only part whose technology and knowledge won't be transferred to the Brazilians.


Poland get 1 spare engine... ONE!

Brazil pays the same price anyone else would. Denmark got a big discount like the other F35 nations because they were promised a plane with "affordable stealth" when they joined the program, as a replacement for their F16's. No one expected the F35 to be the most expensive fighter in the world when it was time to place the orders to replace the F16.

Looking at the cost per airframe today then the F35 is cheap. Its the cost of operating the F35 that makes it expensive.
Of course the "full transfer of technology" only includes what technology Saab owns.
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Unread post16 Jan 2020, 20:15

irt wrote:Poland get 1 spare engine... ONE!


That's ONE (1) MORE spare engine compared to the Brazilian Gripen E/F contract.

And what about the 32 EOTS (Electro Optical targeting System, for you) which are included in the F-35 while EO Targeting Pods aren't included in the Brazilian Gripen E/F contract? (you conveniently forget to mention this, right?)


irt wrote:Brazil pays the same price anyone else would.


No, it does NOT!
Brazil is a Gripen E/F partner nation and partner nations get discounts on the aircraft whose program they partake on.
The JSF/F-35 program isn't exclusive at this - This is a rule of thumb for any military program!

Resuming, Sweden and Brazil will pay less for their Gripen E/F compared to any other nation that may/could purchase it.


irt wrote:Denmark got a big discount like the other F35 nations because they were promised a plane with "affordable stealth" when they joined the program, as a replacement for their F16's. No one expected the F35 to be the most expensive fighter in the world when it was time to place the orders to replace the F16.


Denmark got a big discount just like any other JSF partner nation such as Australia, Netherlands, UK, etc... also got. And again just like any nation that participates in any military program.

The reason why the F-35 is perceived to be "the most expensive fighter in the world" is because it's the most produced fighter aircraft in the world with almost 2500 for US Forces and more than 3000 worldwide. On top of that, the big cost that you're referring to also includes sustainability costs for the next 40 years or so (up to 2060 if I'm not mistaken) - No other fighter aircraft program ever included such costs from the very beginning!
For example, none of the costs regarding your beloved Gripen E includes sustainability costs for a single year, let alone for next 40 or more years!


irt wrote:Its the cost of operating the F35 that makes it expensive.


And what's your source for this?
Do you know that for example the USAF F-16's CPFH is around $25,000 USD while USAF F-35's is around $32,000 USD? Source:
https://books.google.pt/books?id=PK8b3V ... FH&f=false
What does this mean?
It means that each Air Force has basically different sustainability costs such as CPFH this for the same aircraft. Again and for example, did you know that some/many of the other nations that operate the F-16 have lower CPFH for the aircraft compared to the USAF?
Also, do you know that sustainability costs for the F-35 such as CPFH have been dropping after consecutive year?
And when the aircraft entered in service recently that its sustainability costs are usually higher compared to some years later?

And now that we're at it, what's the CPFH of the Gripen E?? This is a rhetoric question, since there isn't one! Last time I checked the aircraft (Gripen E) isn't even in service, LoL :doh:


irt wrote:Of course the "full transfer of technology" only includes what technology Saab owns.


Which again, it isn't that much....
(planes don't fly without engines and so on...)
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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