F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 14:44

I hope a didn't give you a hart attack :wink: 7 times!!!


I try to be clear and accurate and sometimes typos drive me crazy. (some people care about facts, accuracy)

Public sources, you're free to google and easy to calculate. I don't think so, these are major milestones that every aircraft manufacturer makes public.


post them here, you went to the trouble to calculate you provide the source, thats how things work around here.

By your calculation standards it took +14 years to get a single F35 in the air, development started in 1992 and flew in 2006. Impressive! 24 years to IOC (a very dubious one). Great!!. I see a trend here... maybe 34 years to FOC.


oops! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: you walked right into it


The preferred aircraft was a single-engine, lightweight single-seater, embracing fly-by-wire technology, canards, and an aerodynamically unstable design.[22] The powerplant selected was the Volvo-Flygmotor RM12, a licence-built derivative of the General Electric F404−400; engine development priorities were weight reduction and lowering component count.[22][23] On 30 June 1982, with approval from the Riksdag,[24] the FMV issued contracts worth SEK 25.7 billion to Saab, covering five prototypes and an initial batch of 30 production aircraft.[25][26] By January 1983, a Viggen was converted to a flying test aircraft for the JAS 39's intended avionics, such as the fly-by-wire controls.[27] The JAS 39 received the name Gripen (griffin) via a public competition,[28] which is the heraldry on Saab's logo.[Nb 4]

Saab rolled out the first Gripen on 26 April 1987, marking its 50th anniversary.[31] Originally planned to fly in 1987,[23] the first flight was delayed by 18 months due to issues with the flight control system. On 9 December 1988, the first prototype (serial number 39-1) took its 51-minute maiden flight with pilot Stig Holmström at the controls

soo.... being generous because this technically started in 1979 and FOC in 2026 for the E... ummm 47 years?

You sure showed me!!

it got into service in 1997, and before it even got to 2007 with 10 years in service, Saab was redesigning it massively with NG. I think the "improved Gripen" studies started as early as 2004.

by 2009 the Demo was in the air and according to Saab themselves they were running NG tests with it.

Its really up to you when you want to "Start counting" the Gripen program but for a simple light fighter thats so awesome the Gripen E sure has taken a long long time to get going.

Why is that??




Is that a problem for anyone? The development of Gripen F is done by Brazil for Brazil in Brazil with help from SAAB.


I have a huge problem with it. What are they waiting for? why isn't the GCAS done? why havn't we seen them take the F to the max? is it because theyre working on another variant first?

better use that as an arbitrary strike against it, because with ignorance one doesn't understand how test programs are run differently for different airplanes and why.

Testing takes a lot of time when there's a lot of problems with the product and this causes huge delays. I get that :doh: and then you have lower your demands, accept less functionality and accept faults, get delayed deliveries as with the f35. If max speed is so easy why delay testing it? The first thing you want to test is the flight envelope, right?


Nope! STOVL lift system took priority. they tested the flight envelope, just not the ones you think. even a layman should understand why that was. It was just explained to you many times in fact.

When Will Gripen E STOVL and land on a ship?

now this is very simple, In order to ensure that further design changes weren't needed for the F-35A and F-35C, they had to ensure that the B didn't need any major changes first. The B is all about the STOVL system so that had to be tested extensively


But on the bright side, you get a hell of a lot of training aircraft and aggressors from all those aircrafts that can't or is too expensive to upgrade to fighting standards.


Saab would have "upgraded" by having you buy a whole "new" airplane. is it more or less expensive to go through the whole Gripen NG program?

Well this is defineitly where LM could use some Saab Magic. Has LM thought about renaming the current F-35 "Lightning NG" or "F-35E" and then maybe everyone will forget those first few hundred "mulligans"? worked for gripen. Who knew that saab built that thing with a tank that was 40 percent too small from the start? or with the wrong engine? I like how Saab Fixes its product. LOL redesign, rebrand.

Why is Sweden having to place an order for the Gripen E, to replace its legacy gripens so soon?? Buy cheap, buy twice. :doh:


But on the bright side, Saab hasn't built a single "production" Gripen E. So theres that




Having a lot of test flight hours doesn't make a test program great, it makes it expensive and late. I wouldn't brag with that picture.


Weren't you the one telling us Gripen was late to even start its test program? what does that make it

And this is after IOC and at the time when the SDD program is closed.


software updates and upgrades? why I never!

LM testing (you started it) A F22 PIO crash during testing if you don't recognize it.
f22 pio .jpg



gotta reach all the way to the YF-22 eh? :lmao:

If they are so security minded and cautious in the JSF program, why didn't they prioritize GCAS from the beginning that could have prevented the second crash?


When did Gripen get the GCAS? (feel free to use number days here)

because other things took priority and crashes are relatively rare? unlike Gripen this bad boy didn't open with crashing a lot.


Sorry to hear about Switzerland. Most have burned to see that "Hog" flying around over the alps. its almost like the Gripen E is falling so short of they hype, theres nothing to do but compare dates of things you don't understand. :mrgreen:

I'm more than happy to admit the JSF program cost a lot and went over budget (old news right?), whats amazing to me though is just whats taking the Gripen NG/E/F program so long when its supposed to be a simple lightweight follow on evolution. I mean the JSF has an excuse at least. 5th generation STOVL/CVN capable with a dozen nations involved. pretty complicated. But I've been reading about Gripen NG since the mid 2000s. Whats its excuse?

F-35 is such a hog, and yet its winning. Its beating the Gripen E, and not by a little. that must burn, the F-35 is terrible and yet its winning, and the Gripen is marvelous and its losing.

I.will.Edit.this.twelve.times. screen.shot.me.
Last edited by XanderCrews on 21 Jun 2019, 17:56, edited 12 times in total.
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 16:29

Tiger05 wrote:
mikc wrote:13 years to field 3 prototypes?
By your calculation standards it took +14 years to get a single F35 in the air, development started in 1992 and flew in 2006. Impressive! 24 years to IOC (a very dubious one). Great!!. I see a trend here... maybe 34 years to FOC.


Program started in 1996, not 1992, while the SDD phase of the JSF program only started in 2001... Your 'calculations' are off. That the first F-35 first flew only five years after the SDD contract was awarded is actually a quite impressive feat given the complexity and the level of ambition of the program.

Meanwhile it took a decade for the much more modest Gripen E to take the air despite the fact that it was not even a major redesign but just an upgraded version of an existing jet. When the Gripen E finally reaches FOC in 2026, almost two decades would have passed after the Gripen NG was launched in 2007. Two decades to field a new version. Let that sink in for a second. :|



And Gripen program started in 1979... :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Another "issue" for the JSF program was contracts were always plentiful, delivered early and often. The Gripen E way is to shop the idea around for about 8 years first...
Last edited by XanderCrews on 21 Jun 2019, 17:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 17:15

Hilarious because the Gripen crashed twice in testing for the same exact reason. I guess it took the second crash for Saab to take the issue seriously and put money towards correcting it. Meanwhile LM sees a crash and instantly corrects and implements fixes, but Saab is the honest company? :lmao:
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 17:18

kimjongnumbaun wrote:Hilarious because the Gripen crashed twice in testing for the same exact reason. I guess it took the second crash for Saab to take the issue seriously and put money towards correcting it. Meanwhile LM sees a crash and instantly corrects and implements fixes, but Saab is the honest company? :lmao:



Thats called superior testing! we all know:

Having a lot of test flight hours doesn't make a test program great, it makes it expensive and late. I wouldn't brag with that picture.


Crashing is much better.

(since we are bringing up the YF-22)

Image

What part of the envelope was this testing? :mrgreen:
Last edited by XanderCrews on 21 Jun 2019, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 17:45

SpudmanWP wrote:
mikc wrote:If they are so security minded and cautious in the JSF program, why didn't they prioritize GCAS from the beginning that could have prevented the second crash?


They had to wait for basic GCAS dev to finish, then they could work on getting it into the F-35. The same applies to UAI.

The best way to develop a new function is to use a "known quantity" airframe and NOT a new airframe that is still in development itself. Trying to add functionality into an in-development airframe is a big mistake (hello scope creep) that leads to big delays and cost increases.



Besides, the program could use yet another Collier Trophy :mrgreen:
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 19:06

XanderCrews wrote:What part of the envelope was this testing? :mrgreen:


Rapid Breaking? :doh:
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 19:42

SpudmanWP wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:What part of the envelope was this testing? :mrgreen:


Rapid Breaking? :doh:



Breaking the Ground Barrier, perhaps? :devil:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 21:58

mikc wrote:If they are so security minded and cautious in the JSF program, why didn't they prioritize GCAS from the beginning that could have prevented the second crash?



F-35A IOC: August 2, 2016
F-35 GCAS testing begins: November 16, 2018

836 days


Gripen IOC: June 9, 1996
Gripen GCAS testing begins July 10 2013

6240 days
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 22:22

GCAS in the Gripen or AGCAS?
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 23:48

XanderCrews wrote:And Gripen program started in 1979... :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


And let's not forget, they weren't exactly working with an original design (Northrop early Lavi concept):

hmmmm.jpg
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Unread post22 Jun 2019, 06:54

Lavi..ouch, that burns :poke:
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Unread post22 Jun 2019, 18:04

sferrin wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:And Gripen program started in 1979... :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


And let's not forget, they weren't exactly working with an original design (Northrop early Lavi concept):

hmmmm.jpg



Wow. 1979 ... sure is a long time to perfect Brazil's not a viper.
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Unread post22 Jun 2019, 21:49

optimist wrote:Lavi..ouch, that burns :poke:

A short history lesson.

The first Swedish fighter jet was Saab 21R, a converted piston engine fighter, first flight flight 1947. This was quickly replaced by Saab 29 "Tunnan", first flight 1948:

It was the first Western European fighter to be produced with a swept wing after the Second World War, the Me 262 having been the first during the war. Despite its rotund appearance, from which its name derives, the J 29 was a fast and agile aircraft for its era. It served effectively in both fighter and fighter-bomber roles into the 1970s.

The Saab 29 Tunnan is a first-generation jet fighter, possessing the distinction of being the first Swedish aircraft to be specifically designed to use jet propulsion.[10] Visually, it was a small, chubby aircraft featuring an integral single central air intake forming the aircraft's nose, the pilot being housed within a bubble canopy located directly above the air intake on the upper-forward section of the fuselage, and a very thin mid-mounted swept-back wing. The two-spar wing is a single piece structure attached to the fuselage by four bolts.[7] The undercarriage was hydraulically retracted during flight and was designed to be suitable for landing upon rough grass airstrips.[7]
The Tunnan was equipped with a single de Havilland Ghost turbojet engine, capable of generating up to 5,000lb of thrust.[7] It was capable of powering the aircraft to speeds in excess of 650 MPH, and reportedly provided performance in excess of Sweden's existing de Havilland Vampire fleet. The engine was attached to the fuselage at three key points, while the engine cowling could be removed as a single piece; a special trolley was used to remove the engine for maintenance.[7] To improve pilot survivability in light of the aircraft's high speeds, the Tunnan took advantage of the availability of a Saab-developed ejector seat developed in 1943, which was combined with an explosive jettison system for the rapid removal of the canopy.[7]
Later versions of the Tunnan received various refinements, including the addition of an afterburner, which was the first successful use of such a device in combination with a British jet engine.[18] Improvements were made to the wing shape, incorporating a dog-tooth leading edge, for the effect of raising the critical Mach number of the aircraft. From 1963 onwards, all frontline J 29Fs were equipped with AIM-9 Sidewinder infrared-seeking air-to-air missiles-

Next up is the Saab 32 Lansen. First flight 1952:
The Saab 32 Lansen had a simple general arrangement, being one of the first aircraft in the world to be specifically developed to fly attack missions.[5] From the outset, it was designed to provide good support for the installation of electronic warfare and weapons systems. The aircraft could be armed with a total of four 20 mm cannon, as well as wing pylons for various calibers of rockets and assorted bombs. The J 32 variant carried four 30 mm ADEN cannons while the A 32 ("A" stands for attack) had an armament of four 20 mm Bofors m/49 cannon hidden under flaps in the nose.[1] The J 32 differed substantially from the other variant, Saab describing it as "to all intents a new aircraft", being fitted with a more powerful engine and newer armaments and different radar.[6]
The Lansen's nose also contained the Ericsson mapping and navigation radar, the forward antenna of which was housed in a large blister fairing underneath the fuselage, directly forward of the main landing gear; this radar worked in conjunction with the Rb 04C anti-ship missile, one of the earliest cruise missiles in western service. The attack variant of the Lansen could carry up to two RB04 missiles, one underneath each wing.[12][Nb 2] On the reconnaissance variant of the Lansen, up to six cameras can be installed in the place of the four cannon,[Nb 3] the camera bodies required the installation of chin blisters on the upper fuselage of the nose; the Lansen could also carry up to 12 M62 flash bombs for night photography.[14]. The fuselage of the Lansen was produced with a sleek, streamlined airframe with clean lines. The Lansen was the first aircraft on which every mould line had been a result of mathematical calculation, made possible via an early application of computer technology.[15] The wing had a 10 per cent laminar profile and a 35° sweep. hydraulically-boosted ailerons and large Fowler flaps on the wings comprised the main flight control surfaces, as did the hydraulically-assisted elevators of the powered tailplane; a total of four airbrakes were also present on the sides of the rear fuselage.[10] The Lansen had a tricycle undercarriage with a single wheel on all of the landing gear.[16] Other wing features include one-section stall fences on the outer-thirds of the wing, a pitot tube on the right wingtip, and three underwing hardpoints.[16] To test the 35° sweepback design of the Lansen's wing, a half-scale wing was mounted on a Saab Safir, designated Saab 202 Safir.[citation needed]
The Lansen was powered by an afterburning Svenska Flygmotor RM5 turbojet engine, which was a license-produced Rolls-Royce Avon RA.3/Mk.109 engine manufactured by Svenska Flygmotor.[17] For easy maintenance access to the engine, the aircraft's entire aft fuselage was detachable.[10] The air intakes for the engine were located just forwards and above the wing. The two-man pilot and navigator crew were contained in a pressurised cockpit equipped with a single-piece clamshell canopy; a second windscreen separates the cockpit in between the pilot and navigator to protect the latter in case of inadvertent jettisoning of the canopy.[10][16]

Next up is Saab 35 Draken, first flight 1955:
It was the first fully supersonic aircraft to be deployed in Western Europe.[3]

The Draken was developed during the 1940s and 1950s to replace Sweden's first generation of jet-powered fighter aircraft, the Saab J 29 Tunnan and, later, the fighter variant (J 32B) of the Saab 32 Lansen. It featured an innovative double delta wing; in order to test this previously-unexplored aerodynamic feature, a sub-scale test aircraft, the Saab 210, was produced and flown. Developed in Sweden, the Draken was introduced into service with the Swedish Air Force (SAF) on 8 March 1960. Early models were intended purely to perform air defence missions, the type being considered to be a capable dogfighter for the era.
The Draken functioned as an effective supersonic fighter aircraft of the Cold War period. In Swedish service, it underwent several upgrades, the ultimate of these being the J 35J model.

As the dawn of the Jet Age arrived, Sweden foresaw that there would be a need for a jet fighter that could intercept bombers at high altitude and also successfully engage fighters. During September 1949, the Swedish Air Force, via the Swedish Defence Material Administration, released its recently formulated requirement for a cutting-edge interceptor aircraft that was envisioned to be capable of attacking hostile bomber aircraft in the transonic speed range.[4][5] As released, this requirement specified a top speed of Mach speed 1.4 to 1.5; however, during 1956, the specified speed was revised upwards to Mach 1.7-1.8.[4]
Other specified needs were that it had to be flown by a single pilot yet capable of conducting combat operations under all weather conditions or at night while being operated out of relatively austere airstrips while carrying all of the equipment needed to neutralise modern jet bombers.[4] Although other interceptors, such as the US Air Force's F-104 Starfighter, were being conceived during the same period, the new fighter would have to undertake a role unique to Sweden. Specifically, it was required to include the ability to operate from reinforced public roads, which were to be used as part of wartime airbases; the aircraft would also need to be refuelled and rearmed in no greater than ten minutes by conscripts that had minimal training.[5]

The Saab 35 Draken is a fighter aircraft, equipped with a distinctive double delta wing. According to Flight International, it is difficult to differentiate between the fuselage and the wing.[4] The design anticipates what would later be known as a ‘blended wing-body’. The fuselage has a circular section, and the inboard portion of the wing is a large-chord surface which extended almost to the engine intakes. It was possible to dispense with a tailplane, resulting in a clean, simple overall design. The Draken used a unique double-delta wing.[4] The leading edge of the inner wing was swept back 80° for high-speed performance, and the outer wing 60° for good performance at low speeds.[6]
The cockpit of the Draken featured mostly Swedish-sourced instrumentation.[10] Successive models introduced various improvements to the cockpit fittings, such as the revised canopy and new avionics. For export customers, the Draken was outfitted with a Ferranti-built Airpass II fire-control radar, which was effective for acquiring various air-to-air or air-to-surface targets, along with a ground-mapping mode working in conjunction with the aircraft's navigation systems.[10] Typically, two separate radio units would be installed, along with a high-speed data link and two navigation systems.[10] As there is no natural feedback placed upon the stick, artificial forces were generated by a q-feel system. The Draken was also fitted with a three-axis autopilot.[4]


Next up is Saab 37 Viggen, first flight 1967:
The Saab 37 Viggen ("Thunderbolt")[Nb 1][3] is a retired Swedish single-seat, single-engine, short-medium range combat aircraft. Development work on the type was initiated at Saab in 1952 and, following the selection of a radical delta wing configuration, the resulting aircraft performed its first flight on 8 February 1967 and entered service in 21 June 1971. It was the first canard design produced in quantity.[4] The Viggen was also the most advanced[vague] fighter jet in Europe until the introduction of the Panavia Tornado into operational service in 1981.[5]
Several distinct variants of the Viggen were produced to perform the roles of strike fighter (AJ 37), aerial reconnaissance (SF 37), maritime patrol aircraft (SH 37) and a two-seat trainer (SK 37). In the late 1970s, the all-weather fighter-interceptor aircraft JA 37 variant was introduced.

In December 1961, the Swedish government gave its approval for the development of Aircraft System 37, which would ultimately become the Viggen.[7] By 1962, all elements for the project either existed or were close to fully developed; these included the aircraft itself, the powerplant, ejector seat, armaments, reconnaissance systems, ground servicing equipment, and training equipment such as simulators.[8] In February 1962, approval of the overall configuration was given and was followed by a development contract in October 1962.[9] According to aviation authors Bill Gunston and Peter Gilchrist, the project was "by far the largest industrial development task ever attempted in Sweden".[19] During the 1960s, the Viggen accounted for 10 per cent of all Swedish R&D funding.[20]
In 1963, Saab finalized the aerodynamic design of the aircraft; the aerodynamic configuration was radical: it combined an aft-mounted double delta wing with a small, high-set canard foreplane, equipped with powered trailing flaps mounted ahead of and slightly above the main wing; this would be judged to be the best means to satisfy the conflicting demands for STOL performance, supersonic speed, low turbulence sensitivity at low level flight, and efficient lift for subsonic flight.[7][21] Canard aircraft have since become common in fighter aircraft, notably with the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Saab JAS 39 Gripen and the IAI Kfir, but principally for the purposes of providing agility during flight rather than for its STOL capabilities.[10][22] Further aerodynamic refinements during the later stage of development included the addition of dog-tooth patterns upon the main wing to generate vortices, allowing for the elimination of blown flaps from the canard. The use of a thrust reverser enabled the sought short landing performance.

During 1964, construction of the first prototype aircraft commenced; on 8 February 1967, the first of an eventual seven prototypes conducted its maiden flight, which had occurred as per the established development schedule.[24][25][26] This first flight, which lasted for 43 minutes, was flown by Erik Dahlström, Saab's chief test pilot, who reported the prototype to have been easy to handle throughout. Writing at the time, aerospace publication Flight International described the flight as having been "Sweden's astonishing unilateral stand in the front rank of advanced aircraft-building nations..."[25]
Each of the seven prototypes were assigned different roles, although the initial aircraft were focused on supporting the development of the initial production variant, the AJ37.[27] In 1967, the Swedish Government concluded that the in-development AJ 37 Viggen would be both cheaper than and superior to the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II.[28] In April 1968, the Swedish government formally issued the authorization for manufacturing of the Viggen to proceed, issuing an order for 175 Viggens that year.[29][30] Also in 1968, Saab began work on the Viggen's maritime reconnaissance and photo reconnaissance variants.[30] In May 1969, the Viggen made its first public appearance outside of Sweden at the Paris Air Show.[31] On 23 February 1971, the first production aircraft, an AJ37 model, conducted its first flight.[1] In July 1971, the first production aircraft was delivered to the Swedish Air Force.[29][32]


After Viggen, came of course the Gripen A/B followed by Gripen C/D, and now coming up Gripen E/F -- which will probably be the last fighter jets developed and produce by Sweden. The end of an era.

Anyway, to get back to the Lavi and canards; As stated above the first Viggen prototype flew with canards in 1967 -- the Lavi first flew in 1986, 19 years later. I believe Lavi and Gripen were basically developed in parallell -- Gripen development started around 1980, The Lavi program was launched in 1980.

Sources:

https://fighterjetsworld.com/weekly-art ... ripen/968/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_29_Tunnan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_32_Lansen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_35_Draken

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/is ... s-iai-lavi
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Unread post23 Jun 2019, 01:16

Loke, you are taking far too seriously. I more suspect corporate espionage. SAAB acquired the magnificent Lavi design prior to it's release date and were able to do their release in the same time line. Lavi, since going a black project, I suspect is the secret weapon of many countries. Gripen have tuned this design. Done so over the last 40 years, to fulfil the craft. Which may go into production very soon. You can't rush these things, perfection takes time.
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Unread post23 Jun 2019, 22:09

spazsinbad wrote:This thread started 05 Nov 2008 [...]


It's crazy how long we've been talking about this and its still over 3 years from service :mrgreen:

Ya gotta wonder if people have been noticing all that time thats passed, and now that the "Just So Failed" has produced over 300 aircraft, finished SDD, and has all 3 variants in service along with combat, why people might be wondering where the Little fighter that could was, and how long its been in service now...
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