F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 22:33

lipovitand wrote:Questions:

Why does Gripen has such "good" reputation? how did all this started? Is it one of those loude minority that keep boasting it?


It's due to the "underdog complex" which is well rooted within the Western Society.

It's like watching 99.9% of all action movies where the good guy only uses a pistol (or even "non-lethal weapons") while the bad guys use all sorts of much heavier weaponry such as Assault Rifles.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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mixelflick

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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 11:35

CPFH of $4,000 is now being repeated as fact by Militarywatchmagazine...

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... d-shortage

Does this apply to Space Gripen too, or is there a surcharge where it's around say, double that figure? :mrgreen:
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ricnunes

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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 13:31

mixelflick wrote:CPFH of $4,000 is now being repeated as fact by Militarywatchmagazine...

Does this apply to Space Gripen too, or is there a surcharge where it's around say, double that figure? :mrgreen:


No, no! It's perfectly well known that the more complex an aircraft build by Saab is the lower it will be its CPFH! So the Space Gripen will obviously have a much lower CPFH :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 13:51

LOL at that $4,000 figure for Gripen. It will keep on going until last Gripen is retired and probably will even then be kept alive. It's awesome that unlike other fighter jets, Gripen doesn't need any other costly stuff like actual maintenance, personnel costs or upgrades.
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ricnunes

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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 14:00

hornetfinn wrote: It's awesome that unlike other fighter jets, Gripen doesn't need any other costly stuff like actual maintenance, personnel costs or upgrades.


Perhaps we're already talking about the Space Gripen here ('Space' as being something out of this world, LoL) :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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optimist

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Unread post07 Apr 2020, 14:01

Aussie fanboy
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mixelflick

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Unread post08 Apr 2020, 12:06

LOL!

Even better, that CPFH seems to be dropping. Witness this article from a year ago, where it's claimed the Gripen costs $5,000/hour to fly.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/gear-tec ... electronic

So now we're down to $4,000/hour, do I hear $3,000? Of course, the article in question did appear on April fool's day, which might have something to do with it.

The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised to hear SAAB claim Gripen flying = free money. Pays for itself in short order, the more you fly it - the more it makes you.

Awesome :)
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weasel1962

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Unread post08 Apr 2020, 12:10

Maybe that's why its grip-en numbers rather than grip-on numbers.
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ricnunes

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Unread post08 Apr 2020, 14:02

weasel1962 wrote:Maybe that's why its grip-en numbers rather than grip-on numbers.


I would say that those are grip-off numbers (very, very off) :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post17 Apr 2020, 15:59

Gripen E on the Rise [Four page PDF of article attached below]
May 2020 Jamie Hunter

Saab is accelerating the test programme for its Gripen E fighter as it targets new customers around the world – Jamie Hunter reports..."

Source: AirForces Monthly Magazine May 2020 Issue 386
Attachments
GRIPEN E on the Rise AirForces Monthly May 2020 pp4.pdf
(1.17 MiB) Downloaded 812 times
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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loke

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Unread post19 Apr 2020, 12:28

About the Gripen data link.

Some history first:
Introducing the JA-37 Viggen (the earlier attack-oriented AJ-37 Viggen lacked a data link) took the STRIL 60 system to a new level of capability. It was the first aircraft to fly operationally with a modern-style integrated circuit onboard computer, the CK 37, which handled onboard navigation, radar control, and a host of other functions. This meant that while it still received the same basic 103-bit message format as the Draken, it could also receive the absolute position of the target as opposed to its relative position, freeing up the ground control systems to perform other calculations and allowing for the transmission of multiple target tracks.

The Viggen’s PS-46/A radar was linked to the CK 37 computer, so it became possible to slave it to the STRIL data link which meant that the ground control systems could position the radar’s antenna to the most advantageous position for a lock. The cockpit was fitted with both a Head-Up Display and a CRT-based multi-function display, meaning it could show more complex data and more message types.

This combination was extraordinarily effective. So much so that the Swedish Air Force could use it to perform the only successful intercepts ever conducted against the US Air Force’s SR-71 Blackbirds. The latter would skim the edge of Swedish air space about once a week while flying their “Baltic Express” surveillance missions along the Soviet coast, passing through a narrow 3 km-wide sliver of international air space between the Swedish mainland and Gotland at 70,000 ft and Mach 3.

The ground control stations would scramble Viggens once they detected an incoming SR-71 and position them for a head-on intercept, first climbing to 26 000 ft at Mach 1.35, then a three to five degree upward climb on afterburner to 60,000 ft directly in the path of the oncoming SR-71 and into the best firing position for a simulated launch of their Skyflash air-to-air missiles. Throughout the intercept the Viggen pilots had the entire tactical picture on their multi-function display, merging the information from ground radars and their own radar to provide the accuracy necessary for an intercept with closing speeds of Mach 4-5 and only the tiniest margins of error.

The Swedish Air Force recorded over 50 successful intercepts - defined as those where the simulated Skyflash firing was statistically likely to have scored a direct hit. It’s difficult to imagine their having the same success without the pin-point accuracy, jamming resistance, and radar-slaving provided by the Stril system and it proved to the Swedish Air Force that similar tactics would work against Soviet MiG-25s and other high-altitude, high-performance aircraft.

Based on the STRIL, the Gripen data link was developed:
On the Gripen the ‘fighter link’ expanded into the Tactical Information Data Link System (TIDLS) or ‘TAU-link’ (Tactical Air Unit), a TDMA-based high-bandwidth bi-directional UHF data link connecting up to four Gripens in a flight (hence ‘tactical air unit’) and to a Saab Erieye-carrying airborne early warning aircraft. Gripens can share almost every onboard function across TIDLS, including position, altitude, airspeed, and heading; fuel, weapons, and countermeasures status; target position and movement data, whether in the air or on the ground; active engagements; threats; and even the position of the cursor on multi-function displays to allow for pilots to highlight targets or items of interest for other aircraft.

TIDLS has a range of up to 500 km and is both semi-directional and highly resistant to jamming. So Gripen operators have been able to redefine the concept of a flight, from requiring the aircraft to stay near each other, to one where the four aircraft can spread across hundreds of kilometres while still actively sharing radar, status, and other sensor data at high-speed and in real-time. This creates both tactical surprise and ambiguity, because an enemy flight can no longer easily predict from which direction an attack might come, and opens new opportunities for sensor fusion across multiple aircraft.

By being so far apart, yet sharing radar and EW data in real time, a flight of four Gripens can each combine the measurements and perform onboard calculations for faster lock-on, better tracking, and jamming avoidance. Where pilots could treat a Viggen flight as a coherent unit in the tactical sense, Gripen pilots can go a step further and treat their flights as a coherent and combined sensor suite made up of four connected nodes. As onboard sensors and computers become more powerful, so the capability of Gripen flights will continue to increase.

https://www.flightcommagazine.com/singl ... -data-link

Interesting to notice that a flight of 4 Gripens can operate efficiently when being spread across hundreds of kilomters. Do other 4. gen fighters also operate in the same manner?

I know of course that F-35s are often flying quite spread out. This has been highlighted as yet another advantage the F-35 has over 4-gen fighters...

Anyway, flying spread-out should work much better with the Gripen E/F than C/D, due to the massive improvements in sensors, sensor fusion, and the data link.
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Unread post19 Apr 2020, 12:58

About the Swedish FLSC simulator environment:
The facility consists of the following:
* Simulator Hall (approx. 25 m x 15 m)
* Associated operational spaces (control room, order rooms etc.)
* 8 in no. aircraft cockpits in a network
* 4 positions for fighter controllers.
* MTS 890 (Mission Training System 890)
* Overview presentation for analysis and demonstration
* Computer generated (rule-governed) vehicles
* Simulator control
* 1 position for Forward Air Controller, FAC/JTAC

Eight pilots can, for example fly four against four, or six against two, in a scenario that includes a large number of other rule-governed simulated units such as other aircraft, air defence systems or ships. All pilot stations are based on general models which means that, apart from JAS 39 Gripen, it is possible to fly other aircraft types at the same time in the same scenario. The facility is also capable of so-called distributed simulation in which the facility is networked with others via a secure computer link.

https://www.foi.se/en/foi/research/aero ... /flsc.html
Examples of use:
Twenty-three Gripen pilots, intercept controllers (IC) and joint terminal attack controllers (JTACs) of the Hungarian Defence Forces participated in a simulator-aided tactical training in Sweden between September 10–14, 2012. Gen. Dr. Tibor Benkő, the Chief of the Defence Staff inspected the training on the spot inside the Swedish Air Force Air Combat Simulation Center (FLSC).

The participation in the weeklong training every year during the period of the program is made possible by the modified Gripen lease agreement. The Swedish Air Force Air Combat Simulation Center has been run and developed by the Swedish Defence Research Agency (FOI) since 1998. Besides providing training for pilots, intercept controllers and joint terminal attack controllers (JTACs), the center provides means for testing onboard avionics and weapons as well as means for the development of new tactics and combat techniques. The center has facilities for the simultaneous training of eight pilots, two intercept controllers and one joint terminal attack controller. The pre-constructed scenarios enable the soldiers to progress by the end of training from simple missions to the more complex tasks which require more experience. There is also opportunity to carry out full preparation, to continuously monitor the task execution as well as to replay and evaluate the completed missions.

The pilots practiced in two-on-two, four-on-four and beyond visual range air combat scenarios. The training program included the preparation of the lead aircraft of two-plane and flight-level formations as well as the conduct of offensive and defensive counter-air operations.

The missions involved in Composite Air Operations (COMAO) require that the participants of the operation be led and prepared by a well-trained commander. For this reason, the centre provides facilities for training the operations commanders who are to lead COMAO formations. Beyond acquiring the skills of air-to-air and air-to-ground deployments, during the training missions the training audience had a chance to practice suppression of enemy air defence (SEAD) maneuvers, which was followed by a meticulous and detailed after action review. Throughout the training the IC staff focused on the control of two-on-two and four-on-four air combats and the execution of COMAO missions as well as the further development of their close cooperation with the pilots.

To be able to take full advantage of the Gripens’ combat roles, it is necessary to prepare the joint terminal attack controllers and let them practice how to request close air support (CAS) for the land force units. For this reason, the scenarios of the training program included built-in CAS missions. The joint training and task execution and the detailed after action reviews ensured the continuous enhancement of effectiveness and the successful execution of real-world missions.

The personnel completed 200 flying missions during the complex training, which considerably improves the soldiers’ proficiency in a very cost-effective way. The simulator training substitutes for those real-world missions that could be implemented only at enormously magnified costs even under home circumstances. The simulation center provided the participants with opportunity to fly missions which – considering the number of aircraft at home – either could not be carried out or could be carried out only on major NATO exercises.

https://honvedelem.hu/cikk/simulator-tr ... in-sweden/
FLSC, world-leading in simulator development, was the only international partner in a successful demonstration of the training concept, LVC – Live, Virtual and Constructive – held last winter at I/ITSEC, the world’s largest simulation and training event, in Orlando, Florida.

“The demonstration was of a CAS – close air support – mission, where we participated with two virtual JAS Gripen aircraft, which were flown by Swedish Air Force pilots from our facility in Kista,” says Stefan Ungerth, director of FLSC for the last three years.

The other participants were partly made up of real aircraft in the air above Indiana, and partly of other virtual actors in the air and on the ground, which were controlled from several other facilities in various parts of the USA. Fabricated enemy forces were also included. In contemporary air battles, large formations must be synchronised, which makes communication, cooperation and terminology major aspects of the challenge.

“When one has completed basic training, and has good flight routines, one practices these procedures with great precision in a simulator. Probably even better than in reality, since one isn’t so easily distracted. Also, we can train an entire formation in the LVC concept, and not just individual pilots,” says Stefan Ungerth.

https://www.foi.se/en/foi/news-and-pres ... itsec.html

A nifty tool.
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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 01:31

loke wrote:
Interesting to notice that a flight of 4 Gripens can operate efficiently when being spread across hundreds of kilomters. Do other 4. gen fighters also operate in the same manner?


It's your story, tell me.
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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 08:58

TIDLS information, along with radar, EW, and mapping data, appears on the central MFD. The display reflects complete sensor fusion: a target that is being tracked by multiple sources is one target on the screen. Detailed symbols distinguish between friendlies, hostiles, and unidentified targets and show who has targeted whom.

Today, Sweden is the only country that is flying with a link of this kind, and will retain that status until the F-22 enters service. The Flygvapnet has already proven some of the tactical advantages of the link, including the ability to spread the formation over a much wider area. Visual contact between the fighters is no longer necessary, because the datalink shows the position of each aircraft. Leader and wingman roles are different: the pilot in the best position makes the attack, and the fact that he has targeted the enemy is immediately communicated to the three other aircraft.

A basic use of the datalink is "silent attack." An adversary may be aware that he is being tracked by a fighter radar that is outside missile range. He may not be aware that another, closer fighter is receiving that tracking data and is preparing for a missile launch without using its own radar. After launch, the shooter can break and escape, while the other fighter continues to pass tracking data to the missile. In tests, Gripen pilots have learned that this makes it possible to delay using the AMRAAM's active seeker until it is too late for the target to respond.

But the use of the link goes beyond this, towards what the Swedish Air Force calls "samverkan," or close-cooperation. One example is the use of the Ericsson PS-05/A radar with TIDLS. An Ericsson paper compares its application, with identical sensors and precise knowledge of the location of both platforms, to human twins: "Communication is possible without explaining everything."

"Radar-samverkan," the Ericsson paper suggests, equips the formation with a super-radar of extraordinary capabilities. The PS-05/A can operate in passive mode, as a sensitive receiver with high directional accuracy (due to its large antenna). Two PS-05/As can exchange information by datalink and locate the target by triangulation. The target's signals will often identify it as well.

The datalink results in better tracking. Usually, three plots (echoes) are needed to track a target in track-while-scan mode. The datalink allows the radars to share plots, not just tracks, so even if none of the aircraft in a formation gets enough plots on its own to track the target, they may do so collectively.

Each radar plot includes Doppler velocity, which provides the individual aircraft with range-rate data. However, this data on its own does not yield the velocity of the target. Using the TIDLS, two fighters can take simultaneous range-rate readings and thereby determine the target's track instantly, reducing the need for radar transmission.

In ECM applications, one fighter can search, while the wingman simultaneously focuses jamming on the same target, using the radar. This makes it very difficult for the target to intercept or jam the radar that is tracking him. Another anti-jamming technique is for all four radars to illuminate the same target simultaneously at different frequencies.

An important feature of the link is that it works when the airplane is on the ground. A Gripen can stand alert on the runway, with all systems go and the APU running, and the pilot can remain fully cognizant of the tactical situation.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gripen%2 ... 0126317748

OK so according to this journalist the reason why Gripen could "spread out" is that the datalink included the position of the other Gripens. Is that all there is to it?

According to this: download/file.php?id=32773&mode=view

4-gen needs to fly "visual formations". I am guessing that this was the case in "the old days", but probably not anymore? I believe Link-16 has improved quite a lot over the years?

The description of "samverkan" above is very interesting. It is pretty amazing that Gripen had all these capabilities more than 20 years ago! And it will make a huge leap in capabilities with the Gripen E. It will of course still remain far behind the F-35, but nevertheless it will be a very capable little thing I suspect.
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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 12:12

loke wrote:https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gripen%2 ... 0126317748

OK so according to this journalist the reason why Gripen could "spread out" is that the datalink included the position of the other Gripens. Is that all there is to it?

According to this: download/file.php?id=32773&mode=view

4-gen needs to fly "visual formations". I am guessing that this was the case in "the old days", but probably not anymore? I believe Link-16 has improved quite a lot over the years?

The description of "samverkan" above is very interesting. It is pretty amazing that Gripen had all these capabilities more than 20 years ago! And it will make a huge leap in capabilities with the Gripen E. It will of course still remain far behind the F-35, but nevertheless it will be a very capable little thing I suspect.


Finnish Hornets have also had these capabilities for well over 20 years and we have now replaced our national data link with Link 16. Link 16 itself has improved tremendously and has huge amount of capabilties and supports all kinds of different systems like ships, aircraft and air defence units. All these are very similar in concept and also execution with differences in message formats etc. Link 16 can also pass pretty much any information you want:

http://mil-embedded.com/articles/tactic ... ons-group/

McDONOUGH: These TDLs are made up of several components: the radio itself, the RF generator, and the intelligence being moved across that radio over the waveform in a network-centric format. They are governed by MIL standards and have been around for a while. Link 16 is constantly being enhanced. An example of Link 16’s latest and greatest is the ability to push imagery over advanced digital data links into the cockpit of an F-15 Strike Eagle or an F-18 [Hornet]. Also new is the ability to develop what they call a Weapons Data Link (WDL), which enables Link 16 usage over the airwaves to actually guide smart weapons after they’ve been released from the delivery platform.


But Sweden was very early in development of secure fighter data links (also like Finland was in late 1980s for our Drakens). Link 16 was around then, but not many fighter aircraft could carry it until about 15 years ago when small terminals became available. I don't think nowadays Gripen flight with TIDLS would be that different from F-16 flight with Link 16.
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