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Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 09:32
by eloise
Do you think these weapons will be integrated into F-35 in the future for CAS?
APKWS (laser guided Hydra 70):
19 rocket per pylon with LAU-61 rocket pod
Range: 5-12 km

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CS-16-J88_munition+comparison+matrix_r3.jpg

APKWS.PNG

CS-18-A17-004_APKWS+Qualified+platforms.jpg


BAT-120GL (laser guided BAT120)
18 bombs per pylon
Range: 9 km

BAT120.PNG

Capture.PNG

ZUbYcvL.jpg

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Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 11:55
by Dragon029
I'd be surprised if the F-35 never gets APKWS (at least on the F-35B via the Marines); from what I've heard from aviators using the missile, they really like it.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 16:25
by SpudmanWP
Don't forget LZuni, twice the punch of a Hellfire at a fraction of the cost.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 17:50
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:Don't forget LZuni, twice the punch of a Hellfire at a fraction of the cost.


Yeah, I'm surprised EVERYBODY isn't jumping on that.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 20:29
by eloise
SpudmanWP wrote:Don't forget LZuni, twice the punch of a Hellfire

Zuni rocket pod can only carry 4 rocket (versus 19 rocket for Hydra 70) and the range is shorter than APKWS.
Zuni_rocket_pod.jpg

For 4 missiles/weapons station there are better options with longer range, better sensors and warhead such as Brimstone, JAGM-G, Spear. Though they are also alot more expensive.
BAT-120GL seem better than laser zuni.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 21:01
by SpudmanWP
LZuni has a variable (ie thermometric, blast-frag, etc) 40lb warhead and a range of 10 miles. Basically, the LZuni makes a better and cheaper bunker-buster, technical-popper, etc than a Hellfire

APKWS only has a range of 6.8 miles and IIRC less than a 15lb warhead.

Brimstone, JAGM-G, Spear are massively more expensive and only Spear will have a longer range. Remember that the Zuni pod can be mounted on a TER so that is 12 missiles per station, not 4. JSF is already certified for the BRU-55/57 which is 8 LZuni per wing station.

Lzuni data:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110408234 ... i-data.pdf

APKWS fixed wing data:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/downlo ... 478508.pdf

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 06:31
by eloise
SpudmanWP wrote:LZuni has a variable (ie thermometric, blast-frag, etc) 40lb warhead and a range of 10 miles. Basically, the LZuni makes a better and cheaper bunker-buster, technical-popper, etc than a Hellfire
Lzuni data:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110408234 ... i-data.pdf

Zuni.PNG

That new, i often see the quote range of zuni to be barely 5-6 km, why are guided versions of zuni so rare compared to Hydra 70? ( with Cirit, LOGIR, APKWS, DARG, TALON, GATR-L.. etc)

SpudmanWP wrote:Brimstone, JAGM-G, Spear are massively more expensive and only Spear will have a longer range.

Didn't JAGM-G has 24-28 km range?
And Brimstone II has 200% range of Brimstone I?

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 06:40
by SpudmanWP
A guided munition allows for a lofted flight profile. Remember that the range of a traditional Zuni includes drift which laser guidance removes.

I don't see Brimstone2 having 200% of BR1's range given the identical size.

Same for JAGM as it's the same size as Brimstone.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 06:57
by Corsair1963
I know this has been discussed before. Yet, I would love to know. If, a Zuni/APKWS rocket tube could fit into one of the Weapon Bay doors on the F-35A/B/C. Without interfering with internal weapons carriage? As even 4-6 rockets would offer considerable kick to the F-35.


For example an F-35 equipped with all internal Air to Air Weapons. That was performing a Air Superiority Mission. (for example) Could still be called in to give CAS in an emergency. As a matter of fact the Zuni/APKWS would just be a standard fit. Giving the F-35 a strike capability regardless of the mission.


AIM-26A_3.jpg

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 08:34
by eloise
SpudmanWP wrote:I don't see Brimstone2 having 200% of BR1's range given the identical size.

Same for JAGM as it's the same size as Brimstone.

Didn't they use different rocket motor?
As far as i can remember, PAM is same size as Hellfire/Brimstone but can reach 40 km when launched from ground.
Image

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 10:24
by eloise
Anyone think the hexabomb launcher will be integrated into F-35 later? (not internally and externally)
Hexabomb.PNG

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 11:17
by element1loop
SpudmanWP wrote:APKWS only has a range of 6.8 miles and IIRC less than a 15lb warhead.

APKWS fixed wing data:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/downlo ... 478508.pdf


APKWS
Maximum range 6.8 mi (11 km)
Probability of hit per 80% within 2.1 yd (2 m)
Launch altitude-200 to 25,000 ft - MSL
Launch height above target 0 to 15,000 ft
Platform speed at launch 180 to 550 KTAS
* The APKWS rocket exceeds all threshold specifications



If at 450 kt @ 40 k ft, which is already ~12 km high it would take a slant descent, so range from there will be much further out than is claimed for (an up to) 15,000 ft launch altitude. Guidance, navigation and control tweaking and >20 km seems a fairly likely range, with a fast descent. No need to risk the jet at lower level to get fast hits and very little maneuver time needed for loitering jets at a fuel-efficient altitude.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 14:44
by eloise
Corsair1963 wrote:I know this has been discussed before. Yet, I would love to know. If, a Zuni/APKWS rocket tube could fit into one of the Weapon Bay doors on the F-35A/B/C. Without interfering with internal weapons carriage? As even 4-6 rockets would offer considerable kick to the F-35.

I would love for that to happen but it is highly unlikely

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 16:11
by SpudmanWP
eloise wrote:As far as i can remember, PAM is same size as Hellfire/Brimstone but can reach 40 km when launched from ground.
A different motor type and larger wings would give it a much better glide profile and longer range.


eloise wrote:Anyone think the hexabomb launcher will be integrated into F-35 later? (not internally and externally)
Hexabomb.PNG
Anything is possible and if they wanted the best chnace of it happening, they should create UAI drivers. This would not only open up the F-35 to easier sales, but also every US F-16, European F-16s, all F-15E+ (E, K, SG, etc), Super Hornets, drones, etc.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 21:08
by marauder2048
element1loop wrote:
If at 450 kt @ 40 k ft, which is already ~12 km high it would take a slant descent, so range from there will be much further out than is claimed for (an up to) 15,000 ft launch altitude. Guidance, navigation and control tweaking and >20 km seems a fairly likely range, with a fast descent. No need to risk the jet at lower level to get fast hits and very little maneuver time needed for loitering jets at a fuel-efficient altitude.


The original objective range was 16 km.

From Armaments 2010. (page 52)

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1007655.pdf