Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 09:32
by eloise
Do you think these weapons will be integrated into F-35 in the future for CAS?
APKWS (laser guided Hydra 70):
19 rocket per pylon with LAU-61 rocket pod
Range: 5-12 km

BAE-insert.jpg

CS-16-J88_munition+comparison+matrix_r3.jpg

APKWS.PNG

CS-18-A17-004_APKWS+Qualified+platforms.jpg


BAT-120GL (laser guided BAT120)
18 bombs per pylon
Range: 9 km

BAT120.PNG

Capture.PNG

ZUbYcvL.jpg

CR1jsC2.jpg

N7ZmOEc.jpg

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 11:55
by Dragon029
I'd be surprised if the F-35 never gets APKWS (at least on the F-35B via the Marines); from what I've heard from aviators using the missile, they really like it.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 16:25
by SpudmanWP
Don't forget LZuni, twice the punch of a Hellfire at a fraction of the cost.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 17:50
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:Don't forget LZuni, twice the punch of a Hellfire at a fraction of the cost.


Yeah, I'm surprised EVERYBODY isn't jumping on that.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 20:29
by eloise
SpudmanWP wrote:Don't forget LZuni, twice the punch of a Hellfire

Zuni rocket pod can only carry 4 rocket (versus 19 rocket for Hydra 70) and the range is shorter than APKWS.
Zuni_rocket_pod.jpg

For 4 missiles/weapons station there are better options with longer range, better sensors and warhead such as Brimstone, JAGM-G, Spear. Though they are also alot more expensive.
BAT-120GL seem better than laser zuni.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 21:01
by SpudmanWP
LZuni has a variable (ie thermometric, blast-frag, etc) 40lb warhead and a range of 10 miles. Basically, the LZuni makes a better and cheaper bunker-buster, technical-popper, etc than a Hellfire

APKWS only has a range of 6.8 miles and IIRC less than a 15lb warhead.

Brimstone, JAGM-G, Spear are massively more expensive and only Spear will have a longer range. Remember that the Zuni pod can be mounted on a TER so that is 12 missiles per station, not 4. JSF is already certified for the BRU-55/57 which is 8 LZuni per wing station.

Lzuni data:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110408234 ... i-data.pdf

APKWS fixed wing data:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/downlo ... 478508.pdf

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 06:31
by eloise
SpudmanWP wrote:LZuni has a variable (ie thermometric, blast-frag, etc) 40lb warhead and a range of 10 miles. Basically, the LZuni makes a better and cheaper bunker-buster, technical-popper, etc than a Hellfire
Lzuni data:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110408234 ... i-data.pdf

Zuni.PNG

That new, i often see the quote range of zuni to be barely 5-6 km, why are guided versions of zuni so rare compared to Hydra 70? ( with Cirit, LOGIR, APKWS, DARG, TALON, GATR-L.. etc)

SpudmanWP wrote:Brimstone, JAGM-G, Spear are massively more expensive and only Spear will have a longer range.

Didn't JAGM-G has 24-28 km range?
And Brimstone II has 200% range of Brimstone I?

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 06:40
by SpudmanWP
A guided munition allows for a lofted flight profile. Remember that the range of a traditional Zuni includes drift which laser guidance removes.

I don't see Brimstone2 having 200% of BR1's range given the identical size.

Same for JAGM as it's the same size as Brimstone.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 06:57
by Corsair1963
I know this has been discussed before. Yet, I would love to know. If, a Zuni/APKWS rocket tube could fit into one of the Weapon Bay doors on the F-35A/B/C. Without interfering with internal weapons carriage? As even 4-6 rockets would offer considerable kick to the F-35.


For example an F-35 equipped with all internal Air to Air Weapons. That was performing a Air Superiority Mission. (for example) Could still be called in to give CAS in an emergency. As a matter of fact the Zuni/APKWS would just be a standard fit. Giving the F-35 a strike capability regardless of the mission.


AIM-26A_3.jpg

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 08:34
by eloise
SpudmanWP wrote:I don't see Brimstone2 having 200% of BR1's range given the identical size.

Same for JAGM as it's the same size as Brimstone.

Didn't they use different rocket motor?
As far as i can remember, PAM is same size as Hellfire/Brimstone but can reach 40 km when launched from ground.
Image

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 10:24
by eloise
Anyone think the hexabomb launcher will be integrated into F-35 later? (not internally and externally)
Hexabomb.PNG

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 11:17
by element1loop
SpudmanWP wrote:APKWS only has a range of 6.8 miles and IIRC less than a 15lb warhead.

APKWS fixed wing data:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/downlo ... 478508.pdf


APKWS
Maximum range 6.8 mi (11 km)
Probability of hit per 80% within 2.1 yd (2 m)
Launch altitude-200 to 25,000 ft - MSL
Launch height above target 0 to 15,000 ft
Platform speed at launch 180 to 550 KTAS
* The APKWS rocket exceeds all threshold specifications



If at 450 kt @ 40 k ft, which is already ~12 km high it would take a slant descent, so range from there will be much further out than is claimed for (an up to) 15,000 ft launch altitude. Guidance, navigation and control tweaking and >20 km seems a fairly likely range, with a fast descent. No need to risk the jet at lower level to get fast hits and very little maneuver time needed for loitering jets at a fuel-efficient altitude.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 14:44
by eloise
Corsair1963 wrote:I know this has been discussed before. Yet, I would love to know. If, a Zuni/APKWS rocket tube could fit into one of the Weapon Bay doors on the F-35A/B/C. Without interfering with internal weapons carriage? As even 4-6 rockets would offer considerable kick to the F-35.

I would love for that to happen but it is highly unlikely

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 16:11
by SpudmanWP
eloise wrote:As far as i can remember, PAM is same size as Hellfire/Brimstone but can reach 40 km when launched from ground.
A different motor type and larger wings would give it a much better glide profile and longer range.


eloise wrote:Anyone think the hexabomb launcher will be integrated into F-35 later? (not internally and externally)
Hexabomb.PNG
Anything is possible and if they wanted the best chnace of it happening, they should create UAI drivers. This would not only open up the F-35 to easier sales, but also every US F-16, European F-16s, all F-15E+ (E, K, SG, etc), Super Hornets, drones, etc.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 21:08
by marauder2048
element1loop wrote:
If at 450 kt @ 40 k ft, which is already ~12 km high it would take a slant descent, so range from there will be much further out than is claimed for (an up to) 15,000 ft launch altitude. Guidance, navigation and control tweaking and >20 km seems a fairly likely range, with a fast descent. No need to risk the jet at lower level to get fast hits and very little maneuver time needed for loitering jets at a fuel-efficient altitude.


The original objective range was 16 km.

From Armaments 2010. (page 52)

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1007655.pdf

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2018, 21:34
by wrightwing
element1loop wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:APKWS only has a range of 6.8 miles and IIRC less than a 15lb warhead.

APKWS fixed wing data:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/downlo ... 478508.pdf


APKWS
Maximum range 6.8 mi (11 km)
Probability of hit per 80% within 2.1 yd (2 m)
Launch altitude-200 to 25,000 ft - MSL
Launch height above target 0 to 15,000 ft
Platform speed at launch 180 to 550 KTAS
* The APKWS rocket exceeds all threshold specifications



If at 450 kt @ 40 k ft, which is already ~12 km high it would take a slant descent, so range from there will be much further out than is claimed for (an up to) 15,000 ft launch altitude. Guidance, navigation and control tweaking and >20 km seems a fairly likely range, with a fast descent. No need to risk the jet at lower level to get fast hits and very little maneuver time needed for loitering jets at a fuel-efficient altitude.

APKWS has a much longer range than 6.8nm when fired from a fixed wing aircraft. It's over 10nm.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 02:45
by eloise
Any recent news about LOGIR?
LOGIR.PNG

LOGIR 2.PNG

Launcher.PNG

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 03:13
by element1loop
wrightwing wrote:APKWS has a much longer range than 6.8nm when fired from a fixed wing aircraft. It's over 10nm.


If the objective was 16,000 m in 2010, 15,000 ft (AGL) by F-16 I'd say they'll routinely get >20,000 m from F-35 in 2025+. Looking at the last few years of urban-fight against light insurgents, a small plentiful precise weapon like this will make a big difference, if launched from high-altitude on loitering F-35s. Mix that with light free-fall PGMs, some 500 lb laser-JDAM-ER, SDBII. Hard-core urban-warfare response with footprint that covers a medium city from an altitude where the combatants won't necessarily know you're there. A flight could mutually circle an area with 50 km radial separation. All approaches and attack angles are covered fast. The effect would be like a couple of virtual gunships.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 06:56
by eloise
element1loop wrote:. The effect would be like a couple of virtual gunships.

Talking about gunship
Image

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 12:49
by sferrin
Back in the day they tested the original Strike Eagle with 3 GPU-5/A 30mm gun pods. :shock:

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 20:50
by eloise
sferrin wrote:Back in the day they tested the original Strike Eagle with 3 GPU-5/A 30mm gun pods. :shock:

I thought those are only put on A-16?
Btw i vaguely recall seeing a photo of F-16 with 19-shot LAU-3 or LAU-61 pod on TER somewhere but i can't find it, does anyone have it.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 22:47
by count_to_10
sferrin wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Don't forget LZuni, twice the punch of a Hellfire at a fraction of the cost.


Yeah, I'm surprised EVERYBODY isn't jumping on that.

I’m guessing it has to do with a lack of anti-armor capability.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 22:55
by SpudmanWP
How much armor have we gone up against in the past 20 years? As of now, no fast jet is using Hellfires anyways.

I was specifically talking about the waste of using Hellfire & Maverick for CAS and low-intensity ops.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 23:12
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Like the time when two hellfires were used to kill two people?

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 23:17
by SpudmanWP
Yup

I am really surprised that Reapers are not carrying around two 7-packs of APKWS right now.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 00:04
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Probably a matter of off-bore-sight capability. Reapers are not agile so they need weapons that can do the turning for them.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 00:09
by sferrin
eloise wrote:
sferrin wrote:Back in the day they tested the original Strike Eagle with 3 GPU-5/A 30mm gun pods. :shock:

I thought those are only put on A-16?
Btw i vaguely recall seeing a photo of F-16 with 19-shot LAU-3 or LAU-61 pod on TER somewhere but i can't find it, does anyone have it.


They also tested the gun pod on an A-7.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 00:23
by ricnunes
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Probably a matter of off-bore-sight capability. Reapers are not agile so they need weapons that can do the turning for them.


That makes sense.
From what I read these APKWS (guided rockets) aren't very agile. Yes they are guided but the launching aircraft must be pointing directly towards the target in order to ensure that the rocket has enough agility to successfully hit the target.
If this is true than it doesn't look like a good weapon for a fixed-wing UAV like the Reaper.
However this could be a good weapon for a helicopter UAV like this:

Image

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 00:52
by weasel1962
Just to add the cost element. APKWS is still $25k unit cost whilst JDAM is $21k=22k with a small added cost to add the laser seeker. Hydra rockets cost less than $1k each including the flechette rounds which are just as or more effective in handle anti-personnel. Its useful to keep a few APKWS rounds in the arsenal as a hellfire alternative vis no armour opposition but I'm reading its still cost effective to keep the bulk of the 19 round chamber as flechette/cargo/HE rounds even for helos.

I don't think multiple designation tactics are there yet to take advantage of a 19 round APKWS chamber so the limitation is probably sufficient multiple designators. 4x19 =76 targets will probably take sometime to designate. If it takes time designate targets, then the firer needs to loiter. In that case, a helo (or an A-10) is more appropriate. Don't think the intent is to keep the F-35 on loiter (maybe excepting USMC CAS). A helo can still hide behind a treeline but an F-35 is probably more obvious in the air. That's why SDB-2 which is higher cost but significantly lower risk for the F-35.

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 03:27
by popcorn
ricnunes wrote:That makes sense.
From what I read these APKWS (guided rockets) aren't very agile. Yes they are guided but the launching aircraft must be pointing directly towards the target in order to ensure that the rocket has enough agility to successfully hit the target...


Isn't that what the gimbal is for?

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 04:02
by sprstdlyscottsmn
That only moves the designator, not the pylon

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 05:16
by popcorn
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:That only moves the designator, not the pylon

Understood... but once the missile is launched, aircraft heading should no longer be an issue?

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 06:29
by weasel1962
See slide 8 for off-axis capability.

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovclou ... 6paras.pdf

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 08:47
by eloise
The chart in the left corner is a bit contradicting? is it somehow capable of backward firing?????
apkws.PNG

Re: Miniature guided weapons

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 08:51
by weasel1962
Good question, no idea. Maybe the link below explains the off axis capability a bit better. Also explains why the red oval at 3k is bigger.

https://www.stratpost.com/apkws-how-to- ... t-smarter/