F-35's Stunner (Python-6) speculation

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eloise

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Unread post27 Jan 2018, 20:26

It seem that Israel modified their SAM to make a new AAM
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Specs of original ground launched Stunner
David's Sling (Hebrew: קלע דוד‎, translit. Kelah Da'vid), also formerly known as Magic Wand (Hebrew: שרביט קסמים‎, translit. Sharvit Ksamim), is an Israel Defense Forces military system being jointly developed by the Israeli defense contractor Rafael Advanced Defense Systems and the American defense contractor Raytheon, designed to intercept enemy planes, drones, tactical ballistic missiles, medium- to long-range rockets and cruise missiles, fired at ranges from 40 km (24.85 miles) to 300 km (186.41 miles) with speeds of up to mach 7.5
Guidance system: AESA Millimeter 3D Radar + Dual Electro-Optical / (FPA) / Imaging Infrared (CCD/IIR) Seeker + 3 Way Data Link With Advanced Real-time Automatic and Manual Re-targeting Capability
Steering system: Advanced Asymmetric Kill Vehicle With Advanced Super Maneuverability Steering Capability For Super Maneuver Trajectory During Kill Stage


Any speculation about the potential specs of the air launched version ? it looks like the second stage of ground version without the booster, the missiles seem somewhat smaller than AIM-120, but it is a hit to kill missiles so probably can carry more fuel ?
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element1loop

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Unread post28 Jan 2018, 06:33

No intent of Rafael to ever develop another A2A missile ... missiles anticipated to become superceded. ...

Things that make you go hmmm ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
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Unread post28 Jan 2018, 07:07

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A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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eloise

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Unread post28 Jan 2018, 16:39

Israel Is Testing An Air-To-Air Variant Of Its Dolphin-Nosed Stunner Missile
Israel is known to go its own way when it comes to its air combat capabilities. In the past, this has included making dramatic modifications to imported air warfare assets, and also developing its own unique weapons and sub-systems. The country's guided munitions and missile development and manufacturing abilities are especially strong, and US assistance in the form of cross-corporate cooperation and foreign aid have allowed the Israeli defense industry to field extremely high-tech systems that are tailored to the country's specific needs. One of these systems is the Stunner missile.
The Stunner is the pointy-end of Israel's David's Sling air defense system, which just went operational last April. Designed by both Israel's Rafael and America's Raytheon, David's Sling makes up the center layer of the multilayered pie that is Israel's complex integrated air defense system. It sits above the Iron Dome anti-rocket and artillery system, and below the Arrow ballistic missile defense system, and overlaps in capability with older Patriot missile batteries which it is intends to replace. It can be used to shoot down short-range ballistic missiles, aircraft, drones, cruise missiles and large artillery rockets.

The missile is very fast, operating at hypersonic speeds as high as mach 7.5, and covers long ranges, up to about 175 miles depending on the engagement dynamics. But this is when the Stunnder is configured as a surface-to-air missile, where it uses a large booster to get it to altitude and high speed. An air-to-air version would not have the benefit of an ungainly booster, but it will benefit at launch from an aircraft's speed and altitude.

Stunner has a three-pulse motor that outputs different thrust levels during different portions of its flight profile. In particular, it provides added acceleration and maneuverability during the missile's terminal attack phase. The Stunner carries no warhead, instead it is a hit-to-kill system, so the missile can be built more compact and lighter, and more of its internal space can be used for fuel than a traditional anti-air missile that carries a heavy blast fragmentation warhead.
Above all else, the Stunner is unique because of its guidance system. The missile uses three major sensors to guide it toward its target and to pulverize it. A data-link provides the missile with mid-course updates so that it can come within range of activating its novel dual-mode seeker. The missile has a unique, canted "dolphin nose," which came to be as the result of the demands of fitting both an electro-optical/imaging infrared sensor and a active radar sensor in the compact nose section of the missile. The combination of these sensors make the Stunner extremely deadly and unsusceptible to jamming and countermeasures. If the radar sensor is jammed, the missile's optical seeker can continue to guide it during its terminal phase of an attack. If active countermeasures attempt to confuse the missile's optical seeker, the radar seeker will still remain locked onto the target. Basically the configuration offers a higher kill probability and better target discrimination than its single seeker progenitors, and its imaging infrared seeker can likely be programmed to recognize and hit specific parts of a target, like where a fighter is most vulnerable, or to impact a rocket's warhead section and so on.
Considering its speed, maneuverability, seekers, and hit-to-kill configuration, it sounds like the Stunner would be a near ideal missile for modern air-to-air warfare. One thing that comes to mind is that an air-to-air Stunner could be especially useful for the IAF's F-35I fleet.

Modifications to the F-35's internal weapons mounts could allow for more than four Stunners to be carried internally at one time, as is currently the case for the AIM-120 AMRAAM. The Stunner is a slimmer, smaller missile overall than the AIM-120. As such it may be possible to field six or eight of these missile inside the F-35I's weapons bays, giving the jet a substantial counter-air capability increase. A mix of two AIM-120s and four or six Stunners may actually be the optimal loadout if modifications to the F-35's internal racks can be made.

Israel already plans to make significant modifications to their F-35Is, and they also intend to outfit the fleet with indigenous air-to-ground weapons, so integrating the Stunner onto the new jet seems like it would be a highly logical move. Stunner is already a fully networked missile design, with lock-on-after launch capability even for short-range engagements—a capability that is necessary for deployment from the F-35's internal weapons stations.

Expanding the F-35's air-to-air magazine has been long a sticking point with customers for the jet, and there are some other notional solutions being floated, like Lockheed's Cuda, but that missile is likely shorter-ranged and will not have the dual-mode seeker or blistering speed that the Stunner has.
Turning Stunner into an air-to-air missile for the IAF could also lead to export sales to other F-35 users. Even those air arms who don't operate the F-35 could have a high interest in the Stunner's unique capabilities, and there isn't another western missile that currently includes a data-link and both an imaging infrared and radar seeker together on the missile at the same time, not to mention some of the missile's other unique selling points.

What remains an unknown is what type of range the air-to-air Stunner would possess. But even if it can achieve only intermediate-to medium ranges, that is still enough to make it an attractive new option for air arms around the world, and especially for stealthy fighters that can get in closer to enemy aircraft before attacking compared to their more vulnerable 4th generation counterparts.

Now as tests proceed, we'll just have to wait and see if the Stunner can truly stun the air combat universe.

https://www.google.com.vn/amp/amp.timei ... source=dam
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stevedapirate

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 17:52

How big a performance hit will the Stunner take from the loss of the booster?

Eyeballing it, I'd guess the booster represents about 2/3rds of the total propellant mass in the missile, particularly considering the amount of real estate the plethora of sensors the Stunner boasts undoubtedly require in the front of the missile. I don't imagine being air launched will make up that big a loss in propellant, and the missile's performance will be considerably reduced from the ground launched version.

Where that puts it in relation to an Aim-9x or AMRAAM is anyone's guess however.
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Dragon029

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 19:03

It depends; the SLAMRAAM (an AMRAAM with a booster rocket added) only has a range of about 40km despite even the older AIM-120B being able to reach nearly double that.
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element1loop

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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 02:43

Dragon029 wrote:It depends; the SLAMRAAM (an AMRAAM with a booster rocket added) only has a range of about 40km despite even the older AIM-120B being able to reach nearly double that.


SAM mode range is strongly limited by air density for low altitude engagements, and a climb against 1G for high altitude engagements (you know this).

Rafael claim 300km for David's Sling SAM version ... seems optimistic ... as does M=7.5 ... whatever ... the legend doth grow ... but despite a possible sensor impost, it still benefits from hit-to-kill design, and AIM-9XBII and AIM-120C7 do not ... so A2A version could exhibit exceptional speed and range, given variable thrust impulse design ... not going to guess.

BTW, I suspect that dolphin nose has more to do with efficient body-glide performance (better laminar flow %) in lower energy phase, than sensor FOV requirements.
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 23:04

element1loop wrote:BTW, I suspect that dolphin nose has more to do with efficient body-glide performance (better laminar flow %) in lower energy phase, than sensor FOV requirements.

Also guilty of eyeball aerodynamics but that was my gut theory when I saw it as well.
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 23:25

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-362593/
The advanced dual sensors to be used in future air-to-air missiles developed by Rafael will probably involve the use of the so-called "dolphin head" nose section already employed for its Stunner missile...

Rafael sources said the dolphin head shape allows the weapon's two seekers to function simultaneously with no interference, even in "extreme conditions".
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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sferrin

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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 23:39

element1loop wrote:Rafael claim 300km for David's Sling SAM version ... seems optimistic ... as does M=7.5 ...


Hilarious BS.
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Unread post08 Feb 2018, 23:31

sferrin wrote:
element1loop wrote:Rafael claim 300km for David's Sling SAM version ... seems optimistic ... as does M=7.5 ...


Hilarious BS.


What would be a more realistic estimation of the Stunner's (SAM version) range and speed when using the booster? This is one SAM that seems to be all over the map when it comes to maximum range. Some sources quote a rather exact 186 miles. I just wonder if these sources are confusing the Stunner's max range with the range of the missiles it is designed to counter? It would seem a range of about 25 to 50 miles would be a more realistic range for the Stunner, based on what I know about converting air to air missiles into SAMs.
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Unread post09 Feb 2018, 02:59

Fox1 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
element1loop wrote:Rafael claim 300km for David's Sling SAM version ... seems optimistic ... as does M=7.5 ...


Hilarious BS.


What would be a more realistic estimation of the Stunner's (SAM version) range and speed when using the booster? This is one SAM that seems to be all over the map when it comes to maximum range. Some sources quote a rather exact 186 miles. I just wonder if these sources are confusing the Stunner's max range with the range of the missiles it is designed to counter? It would seem a range of about 25 to 50 miles would be a more realistic range for the Stunner, based on what I know about converting air to air missiles into SAMs.


The 186 statue miles is just a journo's non-rounded direct conversion from 300 km = 186 miles.

I'm not going to guess max range or speed, but that booster could probably toss it above the troposphere at > Mach 2.0, moving in the right direction, before the Stunner fires.

It's hit to kill, it has a narrow diameter, possibly no warhead or fuse, but datalink and complex active sensor (which eats electrons). So may go a bit further and a bit faster than earlier generation mid-weight AAMs.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth

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