F-35 Fifth Gen and new way of thinking

blindpilot · by **blindpilot** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:03

So there's a discussion over on the NK thread, as to what the F-35 might bring. I commented that we're still trapped in 4th gen thinking. Same theme in the dog fighting thread ... etc.

blindpilot wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
flighthawk128 wrote:... They'd probably use the F-35 ... fly over the artillery emplacements, then identifies and relays the position to allied artillery batteries to knock them out. ...

... In my opinion what would happen would be a combination ... after all each F-35 can carry 8 Small Diameter Bombs - SDBs,..

... still trapped a bit in 4th gen thinking ... recall from Israel - Maj. Gen. Amir Eshel “... when you take off in this plane from Nevatim [base], you can’t believe it. ... You see things, it’s inconceivable. ... the [entire] Middle East as a combat zone – the threats, the different players, ... close range and long range. Only then do you grasp the enormous potential of this machine. ...” .... They haven't even begun to sort out what the F-35 can bring to NK, and the USMC is [just beginning to] imagine the framework... and it's a lot more than we [are] used to doing....
BP

"Only then do you grasp the enormous potential of this machine"

SO! Let's start imagining and trying to grasp what it means. That's what this thread is for.
(All 4th gen ideas, "look further, go faster, hit harder, better resolution, better comm" are strictly forbidden here!)

BP

white_lightning35 · by **white_lightning35** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:11

Painting targets for the railgun that should be on the zumwalt destroyers. Perhaps DAS can track them hot pieces of metal coming in at mach 5, and zero them in on targets or find new ones

blindpilot · by **blindpilot** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:13

So ... I'll start with NK artillery suppression missions.

I call this the wagon wheel fire hose...

After you suppress most anti air defenses, fly a few B-2 bunker buster sorties ... and have a SEAD/DEAD cap,

You send out 4 F-35s with 32 SDBs and a B-1 with 144 SDBs. The F-35s fly a large wagon wheel formation around the NK border above Seoul, and put a B-1 in the middle of the wheel orbiting.

The F-35s set up a theatre wide Situational overwatch. As popup artillery targets begin to show themselves, the B-1 begins to drop the SDBs carpet bomb/fire hose style into the mix. The System of systems just directs the hose of SDBs like the Phalanx CWIS does its bullets, onto the "next living target." After 144 bombs fall the next B-1 slides into the wheel. The F-35s drop their 32 SDBs as needed to supplement gaps in the B-1 firehose.

This idea is sponsored by "The Last Starfighter"'s Death Blossum.

Your turn,
BP

blindpilot · by **blindpilot** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:15

white_lightning35 wrote:Painting targets for the railgun that should be on the zumwalt destroyers. Perhaps DAS can track them hot pieces of metal coming in at mach 5, and zero them in on targets or find new ones

I like that one !

BP

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:27

F-35s gather targets coordinates in real time for MLRS, Railgun, and the GPS Howitzer round (name is escaping me) for the eradication of enemy ground forces. Once B-21 comes online you should have an F-35 equivalent sensor and communications node with many times the payload and loiter to gather up intel to quarterback F-35s who in turn quarterback UCAVs that are in of themselves sensor nodes. Upgrading the accuracy and rage of traditional artillery and allowing the airborne assets to target them ends up a force multiplier for the land forces too. Enemy aircraft will never even get into the fight as they will be destroyed on the ground or, if they are able to take off from far enough away, killed by an SM-6 before they enter the detection zone of an F-35. Information Supremacy and Distributed Munitions will be the way of the future.

blindpilot · by **blindpilot** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:28

blindpilot wrote:So ... I'll start with NK artillery suppression missions.

I call this the wagon wheel fire hose... This idea is sponsored by "The Last Starfighter"'s Death Blossum.
BP

Now the way this works in CONOPs development, is someone says, "I think it would be better if the at least 2 of the F-35's carried a couple AMRAAMs for air defense .." and someone says " yeah and the other two could have AGM-88s?"
or
"What if there is a dug in gun that the SDBs can't kill? We need a B-2 hanging around with Busters!"

My guess is that this is exactly what is happening as new 5th gen CONOPs evolve.

MHO
BP

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:31

You don't need to put a B-2 in the mix since there are MLRS-Launched SDBs now. They can sit back in SK and launch at F-35 designated targets from 100+ miles away all day long.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:33

F-35s tag team with F-22s for boost phase intercept of ballistic missile launches. DAS provides wide area sensor coverage and once it detects a launch high-flying Raptors use AIM-120s to take them out. F-35s get to deal with the TELs.

blindpilot · by **blindpilot** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:36

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:F-35s gather targets coordinates in real time for MLRS, Railgun, and the GPS Howitzer round (name is escaping me) for the eradication of enemy ground forces. Once B-21 comes online you should have an F-35 equivalent sensor and communications node with many times the payload and loiter to gather up intel to quarterback F-35s who in turn quarterback UCAVs that are in of themselves sensor nodes. Upgrading the accuracy and rage of traditional artillery and allowing the airborne assets to target them ends up a force multiplier for the land forces too. Enemy aircraft will never even get into the fight as they will be destroyed on the ground or, if they are able to take off from far enough away, killed by an SM-6 before they enter the detection zone of an F-35. Information Supremacy and Distributed Munitions will be the way of the future.

I like it, so the question becomes do we need to wait for battlefield prep to do these things, OR

In a system of systems, can we now with F-35 tech, actually unleash C&C destruction, SEAD/DEAD, your distributed artillery, and my wagon wheels all to begin at one single day one zero hour?

Just saying,
BP

blindpilot · by **blindpilot** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:43

blindpilot wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:F-35s gather targets coordinates in real time for MLRS, Railgun, and the GPS Howitzer round (name is escaping me) for the eradication of enemy ground forces. ...

... In a system of systems, can we now with F-35 tech, actually unleash C&C destruction, SEAD/DEAD, your distributed artillery, and my wagon wheels all to begin at one single day one zero hour?
BP

And we can have the Navy Carriers with their Growlers screaming real loud, "Over Here! Over Here!," off shore, and the SHs jumping up and down waving their arms off shore as a distraction, while zero hour, day one opens, with Air Force, Marines, and Subs/Destroyers doing all the work !!!

Sorry, couldn't help but ding the Navy for dragging its feet on the C. :oops:

BP

blindpilot · by **blindpilot** » 08 Sep 2017, 00:51

popcorn wrote:F-35s tag team with F-22s for boost phase intercept of ballistic missile launches. DAS provides wide area sensor coverage and once it detects a launch high-flying Raptors use AIM-120s to take them out. F-35s get to deal with the TELs.

That's actually a very good one since boost phase is a bunch easier than the missile defense approach.
BP

rheonomic · by **rheonomic** » 08 Sep 2017, 02:34

blindpilot wrote:That's actually a very good one since boost phase is a bunch easier than the missile defense approach.
BP

And later, the F-35s can just shoot them down in the boost phase with lasers.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 08 Sep 2017, 02:44

F-35s flying shotgun over Osprey-enabled SOF raiding teams to neutralize high-value targets requiring the personal touch. F-35s download tactical picture of the battlespace directly to troopers' tablets in overwatch mode.

white_lightning35 · by **white_lightning35** » 08 Sep 2017, 02:44

How much power would it take to take down a ballistic missile? Is the f-35 the ideal platform for that rather than PCA or the like? I'm looking at it for a laser strength perspective.

blindpilot · by **blindpilot** » 08 Sep 2017, 03:19

white_lightning35 wrote:How much power would it take to take down a ballistic missile? Is the f-35 the ideal platform for that rather than PCA or the like? I'm looking at it for a laser strength perspective.

Well, it's not so easy as "how much power." It doesn't work that way. There is atmospheric degradation on beam quality, range, resultant net power at that range, target speed, laser dwell time and bloom, and a formula that is as squishy as gelatin. But typically you would want at least a 150kW laser to reliably kill in that engagement. You could probably do it with 100 kW if it was just a few miles away. On the plus side the missile itself is "highly explosive," by its very nature. So golden BB lucky shots are possible on a tube filled with explosive fuels.

In addition laser systems have serious cooling issues not lightly dismissed.

MHO,
BP