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Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2018, 23:14
by popcorn
markithere wrote:I am not sure how useful this would be however here it is. If we know the amount of certain types of weapons an enemy has would there be any benefit in showing it on the screen in such away as if they have 10 AAA in inventory and the plane spots 6 of them could there be a benefit for the pilot knowing that he can target and destroy 60% of the enemy’s resources? Would seeing this have helped with tactics for any of you squadron commanders of flight wings? Forgive me if I stated the wing structure incorrectly. Now if you think they have 10 but the sensors show 15 would knowing this or seeing this discrepancy help commanders?

I think it would be more useful knowing the bad guys, regardless of how many there are and how many AAMs they may have, are unlikely to even detect a 5gen a/c, let alone attack it.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2018, 01:21
by Dragon029
Slightly different idea: If the radar or AEOTS could one day not only autonomously determine aircraft type, but also their loadout, that would benefit the pilot in deciding whether it would be wise to advance to WVR, or whether an aircraft poses a real danger to ground forces.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2019, 20:26
by markithere
markithere wrote:You could use the DAS system from two planes flying in formation to create a stereoscopic image of the surrounding area. At the same time increase the resolution capability to twice what is achieved by a single plane. Similar to cameras that take and stitch together multiple images to create a super hires image. Doing this will increase what is possible with more than one plane. Google superresolution photos with photoshop for more on this.b

Like this

Edited for new working link

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2019, 00:57
by element1loop
markithere wrote:

Edited for new working link

Tactically why bother? All you need is PID and a continuous target-grade vector that's fed to weapons and to a network. EOTS is already a telescopic video camera with a high-res sensor for PID, and also for seeing what the bandit carries from BVR radius. Distributed wingmen will get other angles as they flank. Plus the DAS is already a constantly scanning search-system that 'stitches' a data picture of PIDs and vectors, A2A and A2G, over terrain and sky imagery. At that point it's the data you'd want, the terrain and sky imagery is then just for proper SA and orientation, to plan and execute the action. So why do you want more image details than you need, or can even assimilate, without just distracting yourself (and thus losing some SA in the process)?

What would actually be better than that is an upgraded DAS, and an upgraded EOTS, with improved algos to operate them, and more computer power for much better SA radius, through the systems to be able to cope with all the extra contacts and updating and ranging tasks within the resulting much larger volume of airspace to be addressed by each 5th-gen aloft, i.e. what's already coming within the Block 4 upgrade period.

Which means a flight's physical distribution may be even more open, SA that much better, using aggressive tactics that would be all the more dominant even compared to the FOC 3F version.

As for 3D imagery, SAR can generate that at lower-res already. But do you need that within a moving tactical cockpit, with the DAS view in the helmet which is providing an actual 'stitched' real-time 3D world view?

What is needed much more in the tactical sense is a fused multi-spectral high-res close-up, but from stand-off radius, to confirm that the selected target is the right target, and also not just a clever decoy.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 18:57
by markithere
With the computer and MADL system code can be written so that link 16 can be used by aircraft in full stealth mode. In the area where ful stealth is needed they can send data or message using link 16 overlay. The MADL system actually transmits it and it will auto pass that information from f-35 to f-35 till it is in an area rearage no longer requiring stealth and that f-35 auto sends the message via link 16. They can call it stealth 16. This can be auto used when the plane goes into communication stealthed mode. The pilot just uses link 16 like he would normally. The planes would take care of the rest. Or he could simply select stealth 16 and initiate the MADL system that way keeping him stealthed by active choice in a non stealth needed area.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 19:07
by steve2267
What about SAT16?

As they, or when they implement satellite link... I presume they are going to implement an LPI waveform to/from the satellites. Then you can just encode your Link16 to the satellite, and it will be automagically routed to whoever needs it... either via other satellites, or to other aircraft for relay, maybe even a high flying UAV (Global Hawk or ?) with the necessary radio links, stealthy or not, as required.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 19:10
by markithere
steve2267 wrote:What about SAT16?

As they, or when they implement satellite link... I presume they are going to implement an LPI waveform to/from the satellites. Then you can just encode your Link16 to the satellite, and it will be automagically routed to whoever needs it... either via other satellites, or to other aircraft for relay, maybe even a high flying UAV (Global Hawk or ?) with the necessary radio links, stealthy or not, as required.

Add that in too. Why? Because the more roads available means more targets the enemy needs to try to disrupt.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2019, 19:00
by doge
About the how to counter with Chinese and Russian stealth fighters, the name of F-35 was raised. 8) ... cific.aspx
Q&A: Toward a Seamless Pacific
An exclusive interview with PACAF Commander Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr.
Pacific Air Forces Commander Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr. spoke with Editorial Director John A. Tirpak on Sept. 3 about the challenges of operating in the Pacific Theater, deterring China and Russia, a new force dispersal strategy, and lines of responsibility between regional commands. (The conversation has been edited for length and clarity).

Q. How do you counter the stealth capabilities China and Russia are beginning to field?

A. Infrared search and track is one. The AIM-260 missile with increased ranges is good. But it’s also how I take information off an F-35 and push it to my other assets or platforms.

We’re using the Loyal Wingman concept and others to advance our thinking on how we would employ. Because, again, I want to create dilemmas.

It’s not just the F-35 or F-22 or B-2 or B-21, it’s how do we bring the team together so that our adversary has to consider all the different platforms. And we have to take advantage of those capabilities today, and not just hope [a conflict] will kick off in the future. Because it could kick off sooner than later.  

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2019, 15:04
by doge
I'm wondering where to post, so I will post here.
Captain Max McCoy talks about the fifth generation. 8) ... max-mccoy/
NAS Lemoore and the F-35 C: The Perspective of Captain Max McCoy
In an interview with VADM Miller earlier this month in San Diego, the F-35C Wing Commander joined by phone and participated in the interview. And he provided an update on the F-35C in the Carrier Air Wing and its impact.

Captain Max McCoy highlighted what one might call the forcing function of the F-35 and of the F-35 aviators upon the training dynamic.

“We are teaching F-35C pilots to be wingmen, but training them to think like mission commanders.

“F-35C provides more situational awareness than ever before and pilots must be able to influence the battlespace both kinetically and non-kinetically.

“The pilot must interpret cockpit information and determine the best means to ensure mission success either through his own actions or by networking to a distributed force.”

They need to think like mission commanders, in which they are operating in terms of both leveraging and contributing to the networked force.

This means that the skill sets being learned are not the classic TTPs for a combat pilot but are focused on learning how to empower and leverage an integrated force.

“Training can no longer focus solely on T/M/S capabilities.

“Training has to develop young aviators who appreciate their role within a larger maneuver/combat element.

“Specifically, how does F-35C complement 4th generation capabilities within the Carrier Air Wing and surface combatants distributed within the Carrier Strike Group?

“It is no longer about fighting as a section or division of fighter aircraft.

“We only win if we fight as an interoperable, networked, and distributed force.

“We are still learning and incorporating 5th generation capability into the Navy.

“Our efforts must be calculated and measured but push beyond historical comfort zones.

“We must embrace what is new and redefine what is basic warfighting capability.

“This starts with the Fleet Replacement Squadron (FRS) and Air Combat Training Continuum (ACTC) syllabi.

“We must make integrated training a key component of a pilot’s progression from FRS graduate to mission commander. F-35C is an enabler, if and only if, we train our pilots to think well beyond the limits of their cockpit and reach of an individual aircraft’s weapons system”.

They are learning how to operate as distributed force packages.

The slideshow highlights photos from Nov. 16, 2018 of F-35C Lightning II fighter jets, attached to the “Argonauts” of Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 147, flying .

VFA-147 is the first U.S. Navy Operational F-35C squadron based out of Naval Air Station (NAS) Lemoore. Commander, Joint Strike Fighter Wing, headquartered at NAS Lemoore, ensures that each F-35C squadron is fully combat-ready to conduct carrier-based, all-weather, attack, fighter and support missions for Commander, Naval Air Forces.

With its stealth technology, advanced sensors, weapons capacity and range, the F-35C will be the first 5th generation aircraft operated from an aircraft carrier.

(U.S. Navy photo by Chief Mass Communication Specialist Shannon E. Renfroe/Released)

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2019, 15:05
by doge
Mr.Billie Flynn talked about the 5th Gen at the Aeronautical Society of South Africa Annual Conference 2019. 8) ... 2019-10-16
Advanced computer games generation setting new fighter pilot standards
Young pilots, straight out of flight school, are adapting much more rapidly to the latest, most high-technology, fighter jets, known as Fifth Generation (5th Gen) designs, than veteran fighter pilots with many years' experience. This was highlighted by Lockheed Martin F-35 test pilot Billie Flynn on the first day of the 2019 Aeronautical Society of South Africa conference, in Pretoria on Wednesday.

There are currently only two 5th Gen fighter types in operational service today, all American designs. They are the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor supersonic air dominance fighter, and the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II multirole fighter. The best known (but by no means only) characteristic of 5th Gen combat aircraft is their use of very low visibility technologies -- popularly called stealth.

They also make use of advanced avionics, cockpits and flying helmets. Flying such aircraft is very different to flying 4th generation fighters. Flynn described the F-35 as being, "by any standard, supremely advanced". While the F-22 is operated only by the US, the F-35 is already in operational service with eight nations, while more have it on order.

The young people now graduating as fighter pilots in these eight countries have grown up with digital technology, computers, the Internet, and complex computer games. This experience is proving invaluable in mastering the advanced systems of the F-35.

These young pilots are proving to be much better at flying and fighting the F-35 than veteran pilots are. "They are quicker, more adaptable, than we would give them credit for," he highlighted.

As a result, the US Marine Corps has changed its fighter pilot training syllabus. The effect is to remove the traditional strict tactical hierarchy of flight leader, section leader, and (junior) wingmen (one wingman for each of the leaders). The young (formerly "junior") pilots are much more familiar with the technological concepts employed by the F-35 than the older pilots are. Thus, the younger pilots have valuable inputs to make during an operation, and the more senior pilots have to take them seriously. The US Air Force is following suit.

Moreover, these young pilots are actively pushing the development of the F-35's systems, Flynn reported. They are demanding more and more functionality from the aircraft's systems. ... 2019-10-17
The revolutionary fighter changing air warfare
Fifth generation (5th Gen) combat aircraft are totally transforming the nature of air combat, Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II test pilot Billie Flynn has told the 2019 Aeronautical Society of South Africa conference, in Pretoria. The F-35 multirole fighter is the second 5th Gen combat aircraft to enter service, following the F-22 Raptor air dominance fighter (which is also a Lockheed Martin product).

While the F-22 is operated only by the US Air Force, the F-35 is already operated by eight countries, and has been ordered by more. The Lightning II has flown combat missions in the Middle East and South West Asia.

Flynn explained that, while 5th Gen fighters employ very low observable (popularly called stealth) technologies, they are characterised by much more than stealth. They also possess advanced multi spectral sensors, sensor fusion, network enabled operations capability, and are armed with very advanced precision-guided munitions.

"Integrated stealth [is] key to 5th Gen capability," he stressed. This includes the capability to execute a full mission using only internal fuel tanks, engine inlets that are shaped to hide the engine, having all panel and airframe section edges carefully aligned to prevent radar reflections from (for example) the edges of maintenance access panels, and engine nozzles designed to reduce the engine heat plume behind the aircraft, thereby reducing the effectiveness of hostile infrared sensors.

They also have embedded antennas (also reducing radar reflectivity) and can carry out a full combat mission using only internally-carried weapons. (The F-35 is configured so that, once it has gained air superiority, and stealth is no longer required, it can also carry unstealthy external weapons.)

They are also highly automated, with many routine functions controlled by computers, without input from the pilot. Consequently, the pilot can focus not on flying the plane, but "fighting the plane" -- that is, using it as a weapons system.

Modern combat pilots are inundated with lots of data, from their different aircraft sensors, through data links from other aircraft (or ships, or ground stations) and over the radio. "At some point, the human can't do it all," highlighted Flynn.

With sensor fusion, the 5th Gen fighter pilot is given a single, integrated, picture of what is going on around him/her in the air combat volume he/she is operating in. "The human in the F-22 does not operate a sensor," he points out. The computers do. "The F-22 gave us confidence in what sensor fusion is meant to be."

Sensor fusion allows F-35s to fly in extremely loose formations. Whereas, with previous generation fighters, the two aircraft that formed the basic air combat tactical formation would typically fly some 9 000 feet (about 900 m) apart, with a pair of F-35s the separation distance can be as much as 30 miles (some 48 km) -- yet they still are a formation, thanks to their data exchange capabilities.

The F-35 can also gather and redistribute the data its systems have collected to other aircraft and platforms. It can thus also carry out intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.

The aircraft is also designed to be continually upgraded. Upgrades can include new iterations of software, the fitting of new systems, and the integration of new weapons. Work is currently being done on increasing the capacity of the internal weapons bays.

There are three versions of the F-35. The F-35A is a land-based, conventional take-off and landing aircraft, for use by air forces. The F-35B is a short take-off and vertical landing aircraft, intended for use by the US Marine Corps, several navies and some air forces. The F-35C is the version for the US Navy, designed to operate off conventionally configured aircraft carriers (fitted with catapults to launch aircraft and arrestor wires to catch landing aircraft). ... onference/
Innovation and passion under the spotlight at Aeronautical Society Conference
Written by Jonathan Katzenellenbogen/Guy Martin -18th Oct 2019
Chief Test Pilots from Lockheed Martin and Boeing gave keynote addresses on the first day of the conference on 15 October and also touched on innovation and technical progress. Billie Flynn, the Senior F-35 Test Pilot at Lockheed Martin, described how in the face of much public scepticism about the cost and capabilities of the most advanced and costly fighter project ever, as well as setbacks, credibility had been restored. Mitigating risks in flying the aircraft, through hours of work on a simulator to establish the best routines in the event of multiple failures and the use of experienced “Mother Hens” for pilot guidance was key to establishing safety and changing the critical conversation about the plane, he said.

Among the key capabilities that make the F-35 a game changer is “sensor fusion” and stealth, according to Flynn. The ability of the F-35 to integrate into a wider network of fighters and draw information from a range of sources as well as its stealth has meant a fundamental change in fighter aircraft procedures. Sensor fusion has reduced the pilot workload and allowed far better focus on threats.

The extensive use of algorithms for the operation of the F-35 has meant that older and more experienced pilots have had to adapt to a very different environment. Youngsters with a little over 100 hours in flying time have often showed themselves to be more capable F-35 pilots because of their ability to adapt and their deep familiarity with screen-based systems. Younger pilots are now demanding more information and more screens, he said.

The new technology has also brought about changes in the command structure in the air. Due to messaging with visual representation on screens and helmet displays, there is little use of radio, and pilots are afforded far greater independence and decision-making in the air.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2019, 06:59
by doge
I found a Polish military magazine. Can read free. 8) In 2016, they interviewed Mr.Billie Flynn.
List: (As far as I could see, only No.13 and No.27 were written long articles about F-35.)
No.13 ... zine-13/95
FO: How many years you have spent in the aviation?
BF: I have been flying military fighter jets since 1981…. 35 years. I have more than 5000 flight hours in more than 80 different aircraft.

FO: What was your career path before you became a test pilot?
BF: My father was a fighter pilot in the RCAF. He flew F-86’s in Germany for the RCAF and Luftwaffe, plus CF100s and CF-101s. I attended the Royal Military College and then joined the Canadian Air Force, first as a fighter pilot and then later trained as a test pilot at the United States Naval Test Pilot School.

FO: How many different types of aircraft are you flying?
BF: Presently I fly exclusively the F-35, all three variants because there is so much flying for us, I choose not to fly the F-16 or F-18 as a second aircraft.

FO: How different is the F-35 from the jets you have been flying before?
BF: The F-35 is a 5thGeneration fighter is far more than just a flying machine. The systems on-board are vastly more sophisticated than any legacy fighter that I have known. So flying the F-35, at the very leading edge of technology development is a very technically exciting task.

FO: What are the main differences between the various versions of the F-35?
BF: Very little difference between each model. They only differ in takeoff and landing characteristics and even then, they are not much different.

FO: We had the opportunity to “fly” on the F-35 simulator - flying the real aircraft is much different than simulated
BF: The simulator flies very much like the real airplane. The F-35 is a remarkably easy aircraft to operate as a pilot because the true task for our pilots is to manage the systems and the information presented on the touch screens in front of them in the cockpit.

FO: How would you compare F-35 to other advanced military fighters?
BF: It will be decades until foreign powers can build an aircraft that will match the capability of the F-35. It eclipses all other flying machines. Legacy 4th generation fighters in the West cannot match the capabilities of the F-35 even today.

FO: Earlier you have been flying as F-16 pilot. Those fighters are now used by Polish Armed Forces. Can we even compare them with the F-35A?
BF: The F-16 is a magnificent fighter jet. I have 2000 flying hours in every model of the F-16 ever made. However the F-35 is a new generation of fighter and cannot be compared directly with the F-16 as a 4th generation fighter.

FO: You have also been flying CF-18 Hornet, could you compare this aircraft with F-35C?
BF: The CF-18 was a great jet 35 years ago and even 15 years ago when I was a squadron commander and flew it in combat over Kosovo and Serbia. I flew it 33 year ago for the first time; it is a 4th Generation fighter and cannot match the surface-to-air and the air-to-air threats of the future.

FO: We had impression that the pilot of F-35 (frankly speaking) operates in total VR. What is the real impact on flying this fighter?
BF: VR does not exist for the fighter pilot yet. But systems like sensor fusion and the Distributed Aperture System that feeds imagery into our F-35 helmet borders on virtual reality technologies. I look forward to our evolving technologies as time goes on for the F-35.

FO: F-35 is quite expensive piece of technology. Do you see potential for future procurement by other countries which currently have US fighters?
BF: The price of a F-35 continues to drop and we’re confident that by the end of the decade a F-35A model will be the same or less than any 4th Generation fighter. Remember, the F-35 has the most advanced technology, stealth and 5th generation sensor fusion. It seems very clear that investing in the F-35 with 40 years of development and enhancements ahead of it would be the smartest investment for our ally militaries.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 06:12
by steve2267
An article I read recently stated that in November 2019, 96% of Iran was cut off from the Internet for 2-3 days -- the Iranian government cut that nation off from the rest of the world. Citizens were up in arms, figuratively, protesting the high prices of fuel, milk, eggs and other basic staples and the culpability of the Iranian government. Apparently many of the protesters were organizing by way of the Internet, so the government shut down access to the Internet.

The F-35 is really good at sniffing out RF signals, IR returns, fusing them and identifying targets -- then blowing those targets up or passing on the information. I suppose it might be used to sniff out networks. It's EW prowess has been hinted at obliquely about being able to penetrate networks etc. But I don't want to get this thread locked.

Rather... I am wondering if there could be some way the F-35 could be used in an unconventional manner to establish an ALTERNATE Internet gateway to or for Iranian dissidents?

On the one hand, the simplest (yeah, not so simple) idea is to orbit an F-35 around an area and act like a giant WiFi router in the sky. Except... Laptops etc connect to WiFi in terms of feet or yards, maybe tens of yards or hundreds of feet... but no laptop is going to get on some WiFi router overhead at 20,000 or 30,000ft...

Then I got to thinking that maybe MALD-X's could be configured with lots of fuel and a relatively simple electronics payload. But a MALD-J has at most 90 minutes endurance. And how low could a MALD orbit? Seems like another idea dead end...

To establish a rebel Internet... you need to create a network of routers on the ground, and at some multiples of points those routers would need to uplink to an orbiting router in the sky. These uplinks would be more along the lines of high powered cellular equipment -- or probably just specialized stuff. But the AutoBots are not yet here, so pooping self-deploying drones that can magically land on rooftops, deploy solar arrays and start offering WiFi to compete with the corner gummint coffee shop WiFi is not yet here... So you're gonna need boots on the ground. I'm back to Special Forces -- Green Beret types.

I suppose F-35's could be rigged to re-supply small GB Alpha Teams via high-speed, stealthy parachute drops... A couple tons of supplies could be pretty slick. But teams retrieving parachutes seems very risky -- easy for enema ground elements to swoop in and round up the Alphas.

Popping a couple MALD-like or JSOW-ER-like aero vehicles rigged for resupply rather than to go KABOOM, could be an option. They would already have the separation testing and integration completed...

I suppose, theoretically, it might be possible for something like an F-35 to conduct an EW attack and somehow inject some code into the Iranian network which might open some backdoors so NSA types could get in and take over the Iranian network... BUT, if the Iranians get wind of that... they can still just physically shut the whole shebang down like they did last November, then your back to SquareOne.

A mini V-247 drone that could get dropped out of of a Lightning Weps-bay and then precisely rendezvous with ground elements could potentially be useful... but am starting to get into really 007 stuff (or at least Skunk Works does not exist type stuff).

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 06:30
by zhangmdev
Unrestricted Internet access is better served by satellites. Broadband via LEO constellation is closer to reality than ever. SpaceX just launched another 60 Starlink satellites today.

Re: F-35 unconventional tactics - your ideas?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 07:22
by steve2267
zhangmdev wrote:Unrestricted Internet access is better served by satellites. Broadband via LEO constellation is closer to reality than ever. SpaceX just launched another 60 Starlink satellites today.

Well... duh. Thanks for bringing me back to reality... Nevermind. Carryon.