6 AMRAAM Loadout moved up to Block 4

F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.
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marsavian

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Unread post04 Oct 2018, 18:55

From accounts it appears that the blue air force that participated in that 78:3 asset escort exercise consisted of (E)F-18A/F/G, US/Singapore/Indonesia F-16, Su-30MKi, Gripen along with E-7 AWACS. The only participants specifically not mentioned are Rafale, F-15, USMC/Malaysia F-18C/D but they may have been included in the 'bunch of aircraft designed to escort transports'. No composition of Red Air was given. I suspect the Blue Air won mainly because of the E-7 and Growlers support (hinted in the second link) as it seems Blue and Red Air were quite mixed maybe with the same aircraft even.

http://aviationphotodigest.com/pitch-bl ... woe-to-go/
http://aviationphotodigest.com/we-seek- ... ike-first/
https://www.airforce.gov.au/exercises/P ... g-aircraft
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aasm

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Unread post05 Oct 2018, 09:02

Again, i basically meant that 4th gen is too wide a category to be compared to other aircrafts. Aussie FA18/A/B might be better than i thought, however 1) they are going to be replaced (aswell as swiss, canadian and finnish) 2) do not fit in modern fouth gen due to lack of AESA. I do not consider Gripen A/B as a very modern aircraft, except on MS-20 upgrades (maybe), with radar enhancements and moreover Meteor integration.

No more, no use being rude.
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ricnunes

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Unread post05 Oct 2018, 19:21

aasm wrote:Again, i basically meant that 4th gen is too wide a category to be compared to other aircrafts.


aasm wrote:Just putting F-18 and F18 E/F in the same generation is abusive.


You didn't you read a single word if what I previously posted, did you?

Just because the SH, Rafale, Typhoon or Gripen NG are more modern and in general terms and generally speaking have more modern avionics such as like you mentioned, AESA radar or some form of sensor fusion doesn't warrant putting these aircraft into a whole new generation.
Apart from having more modern systems in terms of generational leaps there's not much of a different, namely conceptually, between a legacy Hornet and a Super Hornet for example.

Moreover, previously you mentioned the F-16. I guess that you could say that the F-16C (starting from Block 30) would be a new generation compared to the F-16A (Block 5 for example) but the vast majority of people would certainly disagree with you, at least I would! What would be the generational/conceptual differences between a F-16A and a F-16C and between a Legacy Hornet and a Super Hornet? No much if any, I'm pretty sure of!
Also if we look at the latest F-16 variant, the Block 70 wouldn't this aircraft belong and rightfully so into the same gen as a SH, Rafale, etc...? So according to your own argument, the F-16 would exist into 3 different generations but then again how could this be, if we're taking about the same aircraft (albeit, like everything else begin modernized)? Starting to get the idea, or not?

Another example that I could give you: Look at the F-104 Starfighter. This is a second generation fighter aircraft right? I guess a few here have doubts about this and why? Because the 2nd gen of jet fighter aircraft was the first generation to bring supersonic (level) flight capability together with some initial radar and air-to-air missiles capability, in which the F-104 fits perfectly.
However if we look at the most advanced F-104 Starfighter variant the Italian F-104S, this one brought BVR air-to-air combat capabilities (this case with Aspide missiles), capabilities that were first seen on 3rd gen fighter aircraft. But just because the 2nd gen F-104 got some 3rd gen warfighting capabilities does this make it automatically a 3rd gen fighter aircraft as well as for example the F-4 Phantom, Mig-23, Mig-25, etc...? I don't think so!
Generational leaps are much more than just retrofitting some of the new technologies onto older gen designs. In the case of the newest generation (the 5th gen) it MUST forcibly include Stealth, something that you just cannot retrofit onto aircraft like Super Hornet, Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen NG, Su-35, etc...!

But even thou and in order to cater "the needs/oppinion" of people like you, these newer 4th gen fighter aircraft (SH, Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen NG, Su-35) are considered to be 4.5th gen fighter aircraft - this consideration is even acknowledged by the manufacturers of these (4.5th) aircraft - so be happy with this!


aasm wrote:No more, no use being rude.


If you didn't keep ignoring others posts while at the same time keep posting your same and already debunked argument(s), over and over again, maybe people would be "less rude" to you here, no?
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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aasm

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 15:38

So according to your own definitions, stealth is the generation differentiator and F-117 is a fifth gen?

I'd prefer saying that fifth gen is a force multiplier and that stealth is ONE of multiple capabilities allowing it. But we are far from the original discussion...
5th gen is the paramount of multirole airplanes. And first steps into 6th gen. Paramount will change when capacities, instead of being pulled into a single platform, will be directed by highly networked and specialized assets at a desired effect whatever the platform. (at least it is my opinion)
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marsavian

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 16:11

Of course F-117 was fifth gen, it wrecked the Iraqis in the early attacks in Desert Storm with previously unheard of impunity. The jump from fourth to fifth is a lot bigger in real capability then third to fourth or second to third. It's like the difference in having radar and not having it. Having missiles and not having them.
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botsing

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 16:16

aasm wrote:So according to your own definitions, stealth is the generation differentiator and F-117 is a fifth gen?

Another fallacy and dare I say it, a strawman.

In the same category as "a swallow can fly, so everything that flies is a swallow..."

Now you only need to argue if it was an African or European one. :mrgreen:
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aasm

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 16:51

marsavian wrote:Of course F-117 was fifth gen, it wrecked the Iraqis in the early attacks in Desert Storm with previously unheard of impunity. The jump from fourth to fifth is a lot bigger in real capability then third to fourth or second to third. It's like the difference in having radar and not having it. Having missiles and not having them.


I nderstand what you mean. The only thing i wanted to underline is that the definition of a gen is a complex matter and that saying "vs 4th gen" is abusive. "vs F-16 block 10" and vs "Typhoon PE4" for example are a whole different matter.
There will ALWAYS be some situations, be it faulty planification/piloting, tricky adversary, pure unluck, huge numbers of adversaries etc. wherer 5th gen or not, an aircraft can be in trouble. No more. I don't see what is so shocking?
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marsavian

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 17:07

Sure unfortunate circumstances can affect any military aircraft but that does not take away the first look advantage that fifth gen F-35 has over other fighters, even its EOTS IRST is more advanced and longer ranged than its competition.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 17:37

Despite having an "F", the F-117 is a bomber not a fighter and thereby is not a "5th gen fighter".
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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aasm

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 19:35

marsavian wrote:Sure unfortunate circumstances can affect any military aircraft but that does not take away the first look advantage that fifth gen F-35 has over other fighters, even its EOTS IRST is more advanced and longer ranged than its competition.


Ahem? EOTS more advanced? I thought it was advanced sniper in american inventory and that EOTS (sniper XR declination) was going to be updated ?

Nvm, i never said that low observability isn't an advantage.
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marsavian

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 20:02

More advanced than its Sukhoi competition also Euro canards too. 1k * 1k staring array and can pick out individual Las Vegas hotel windows at 50nm. Of course with the SWIR (possibly LWIR too) update it will only get better as will the new twice as powerful DAS in 2024. F-35 will stay ahead of the competition on the IR front too which is their only real hope of finding the F-35 in BVR.
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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 22:26

marsavian wrote:More advanced than its Sukhoi competition also Euro canards too. 1k * 1k staring array and can pick out individual Las Vegas hotel windows at 50nm. Of course with the SWIR (possibly LWIR too) update it will only get better as will the new twice as powerful DAS in 2024. F-35 will stay ahead of the competition on the IR front too which is their only real hope of finding the F-35 in BVR.

5x more powerful DAS, along with significant improvements to EOTS, too.
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marsavian

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Unread post06 Oct 2018, 22:44

5x the resolution, twice the range.
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aasm

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Unread post07 Oct 2018, 14:07

marsavian wrote:More advanced than its Sukhoi competition also Euro canards too. 1k * 1k staring array and can pick out individual Las Vegas hotel windows at 50nm. Of course with the SWIR (possibly LWIR too) update it will only get better as will the new twice as powerful DAS in 2024. F-35 will stay ahead of the competition on the IR front too which is their only real hope of finding the F-35 in BVR.


Arent you confusing EOTS and DAS, and in what a 1k*1k staring array would be more advanced than russian/chinese /european products? You are talkin of 2024, a "wice as powerful" (what doese it mean???). In 2024, Su57, Typhoon with new sensors, Rafale F4 should be in service then.... Apparently, the only thing really more advanced in IR is the number of apertures, definitely not the sensibility of sensors...
5* the resolution, ok. Don't you think competition will ALSO advance in the meantime?
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marsavian

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Unread post07 Oct 2018, 16:44

Sure the F4 Rafale will bring it up to standard EOTS MWIR capability but advanced EOTS with SWIR and possibly LWIR too will raise the bar again.The Russians are bringing up the rear on this with their outdated technology.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... CSvxOoSlLe

The latest 3rd generation matrix detector technology has been chosen for future versions of the FSO to ensure extended detection ranges, and the IR module is fully capable of operating in hot and humid climate conditions.The TV sensor has an exceptional long-range identification capability, allowing a high-resolution image of the target to be displayed on any of the cockpit's three screens. Target counting for raid assessment is also a key advantage of the FSO, and tracking of low radar cross-section aircraft is a distinct possibility. Similarly, hostile fighters performing a defensive 'beam' manoeuvre will be tracked easily.


I also am not getting confused with EOTS/DAS as both are being improved. Let Hornetfinn explain it to you

viewtopic.php?p=397317#p397317

So it seems like EOTS is technologically pretty much on par with latest operational podded targeting systems (save for SWIR and/or EO channels in some very latest pods) and clearly superior to any fielded fighter IRST system. Pretty impressive for built-in and fully integrated system.
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