Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 02:03
by jessmo111
http://breakingdefense.com/2016/06/jagm ... rone-test/

I couldn't help but notice that the missile used to be scheduled for Super Hornet, and is capable of being fired from the air. Can anyone explain why the fast jet requirements where dropped?
Currently there is no modern rocket powered missile scheduled for F-35. Anyone have insight?

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 02:13
by SpudmanWP
Brimstone

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 02:21
by spazsinbad
Why would not this original post be in the armament section of this forum?:
F-35 Armament, Stores and Tactics
F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 04:20
by jessmo111
spazsinbad wrote:Why would not this original post be in the armament section of this forum?:
F-35 Armament, Stores and Tactics
F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.


@spud will the USN, USAF, and marines adopt brimestone?
@spaz I posted it in armaments did they move it?

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 04:25
by spazsinbad
you must have misTOOKen the section when posting = wrong trousers.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 04:26
by SpudmanWP
jessmo111 wrote:@ will the USN, USAF, and marines adopt brimestone?

They can if they want to.

Fast jet JAGM is not out of the picture yet.

After enough JCM/JAGM missile program cancellations and resurrections to make even Lazarus give up, the US Army looked at its Hellfire stocks, and realized that they’d need something new anyway. In response, they decided to try squaring this circle using an incremental approach, one focused on replacing the most at-risk AGM-114L radar-guided missiles first.

Initial. The JAGM Continued Technology Development phase now aims to create dual-mode laser/radar guidance sections that can equip existing Hellfire II missiles. Essentially, JAGM Increment 1 would create a Hellfire III missile with dual-mode guidance, matched to the AGM-114R’s multi-role warhead and rocket. Initial Army platforms would include the AH-64E Apache attack helicopter, and MQ-1C Gray Eagle UAV. The USMC’s initial platforms will be the AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter and KC-130J Harvest Hawk armed tanker/ transport, for integration by FY 2019.

JAGM Increment 2. Intends to increase the maximum range to 12 km, and move to the full tri-mode seeker with semi-active laser, Imaging Infrared (IIR), and millimeter wave radar guidance modes. If Raytheon bids, they’d be offering the tri-mode seeker in Increment 1 as well.

JAGM Increment 3. This is the original JAGM concept, more or less. It would have a maximum range of 16 km that would likely force a new rocket motor, alongside other redesigns for carriage and launch from helicopters or fast jets. Initial fixed-wing platforms would include the USMC’s AV-8B Harrier and B Lightning II STOVL fighters, but there’s no set schedule. The earliest integration slot involves Block 4 fighters, whose software isn’t likely to be ready before 2021-2023.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/joi ... tten-0229/

The split up of JAGM into 3 increments has been in the works for quite a while. I've seen congressional testemony dated April 2014 talking about it.

Here is another overview of the original JAGM requirement and how the Increments are laid out. Sorry, no timeline on Inc2&3.

Image

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 04:56
by jessmo111
I agree. You must also take into consideration that a hell fire/ brimestone class weapon has less explosive than the 250lb sdb. And you can carry alot more.
In theory a F-35B should be able to carry 15+ in the internal bay, with a special rack. That number is from my neither regions, but the Hellfire and brimestone are in the 100 pounds class.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 15:07
by bigjku
jessmo111 wrote:I agree. You must also take into consideration that a hell fire/ brimestone class weapon has less explosive than the 250lb sdb. And you can carry alot more.
In theory a F-35B should be able to carry 15+ in the internal bay, with a special rack. That number is from my neither regions, but the Hellfire and brimestone are in the 100 pounds class.


It's volume limited not weight limited. You won't get 15 in there. Will carry same number as you could of SDB-2. If you don't know what you will run up against SDB makes more sense as it can do a tank just as well as it can a hardened bunker or aircraft shelter or bridge really.

The problem with Brimstone hs always been that it's a fairly specific anti-vehicle weapon. But in a low threat environment drone delivered Hellfires are much cheaper and just as effective. In a high threat environment I would rather use WCMD to deliver CBU-105 against armored formations. It can service more targets from further out. I get a lot more bang for the buck.

I think this is the reason fast jet carriage is so far down the priority list for JAGM. It isn't heavy enough to be a maverick replacement and other weapons in the arsenal can do the anti-armor trick better. It isn't quite the general purpose weapon SDB-2 will be. Ideally they would have it for plinking a single vehicle here and there. But I don't think anyone is that worked up about it.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 15:36
by popcorn
I thought the Navy?Marines had dropped out of JAGM and it's exclusively an Army program for launch from helos and drones?

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 15:45
by bigjku
popcorn wrote:I thought the Navy?Marines had dropped out of JAGM and it's exclusively an Army program for launch from helos and drones?


Increment 1 certainly is. But keep in mind it deploys on Marine AH-1's. I believe they did do the work to make the airframe capable of being used from a higher speed jet. It's just a question of if anyone wants to pay for integration.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 16:40
by zerion
jessmo111 wrote:I agree. You must also take into consideration that a hell fire/ brimestone class weapon has less explosive than the 250lb sdb. And you can carry alot more.
In theory a F-35B should be able to carry 15+ in the internal bay, with a special rack. That number is from my neither regions, but the Hellfire and brimestone are in the 100 pounds class.

JAGM is rail launched so can't be fired from the bays. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 16:49
by Dragon029
Rail-launched weapons can always be modified; Brimstone is a rail-launched weapon, but will have internal carriage on the F-35.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 17:17
by zerion
Dragon029 wrote:Rail-launched weapons can always be modified; Brimstone is a rail-launched weapon, but will have internal carriage on the F-35.

As always. But if you have SDB why spend the the $$?

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 23:02
by count_to_10
bigjku wrote:
It's volume limited not weight limited. You won't get 15 in there. Will carry same number as you could of SDB-2. If you don't know what you will run up against SDB makes more sense as it can do a tank just as well as it can a hardened bunker or aircraft shelter or bridge really.

The problem with Brimstone hs always been that it's a fairly specific anti-vehicle weapon. But in a low threat environment drone delivered Hellfires are much cheaper and just as effective. In a high threat environment I would rather use WCMD to deliver CBU-105 against armored formations. It can service more targets from further out. I get a lot more bang for the buck.

I think this is the reason fast jet carriage is so far down the priority list for JAGM. It isn't heavy enough to be a maverick replacement and other weapons in the arsenal can do the anti-armor trick better. It isn't quite the general purpose weapon SDB-2 will be. Ideally they would have it for plinking a single vehicle here and there. But I don't think anyone is that worked up about it.

Actually, while the SDB-1 is a penetrating weapon, the SDB-2 is also an anti-vehicle weapon with a shape-charge warhead, and no ability to penetrate bunkers. I'm not even sure you could get a SDB-2 through a brick wall without breaking it before it can detonate.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2016, 23:13
by popcorn
SDB-2 has a superior sensor suite over JAGM. It's IIR capability will be quite useful in a battlespace awash with jamming.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 00:02
by arian
SDB-II: longer range, bigger warhead, same price, already in production, easy integration on existing platforms, probably greater release envelope. About the same, or smaller, size.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 01:56
by SpudmanWP
JAGM/Brimstone has the edge on time-critical targets.

This is important for pop-up targets of opportunity, especially SAMs and AAA.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2016, 02:16
by count_to_10
SpudmanWP wrote:JAGM/Brimstone has the edge on time-critical targets.

This is important for pop-up targets of opportunity, especially SAMs and AAA.

It also has commonality advantages -- helicopters and surface vehicles can be armed with Hellfire missiles, but not the SDB.
Well, not counting that test with a SDB replacing the warhead of a cluster rocket, anyway.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 16:40
by SpudmanWP
I was posting on another blog (sorry, I've been unfaithful) and the topic of JAGM came up along with JAGM-F (???). A little digging found this gem from the FY2019 NDAA.

CoAspire personnel attended the open HASC Markup session on May 9, 2018 where JAGM-F and other issues were debated and voted on. JAGM-F Missile amendments (an additional $10M total authorized for Navy and Marine Corps) were voted on "En Bloc" and the vote was bi-partisan and unanimous. (CoAspire Photo)

On Wednesday, May 9th 2018 during the FY19 NDAA markup, the House Armed Services Committee (HASC) passed two "En Bloc" amendments for the JAGM-F missile program for the FY19 National Defense Authorization Act. En Bloc amendments are cleared in a bi-partisan process in advance by the HASC and are voted on during the day-long markup process. Both En Bloc votes that included JAGM-F were unanimous.

For those not familiar with the process, the House Armed Services Committee conducts their mark-up of the NDAA in an open, televised forum and members of the public can sit in the limited public seating area and watch the debate and votes in person. Some of the amendments can be controversial. The ones on the JAGM-F were not, and had senior, bi-partisan support.

Here is a link to a Defense News article that lists the En Bloc amendments.

The first amendment passed by the full committee (EB7 117r1) authorizes an additional $5M for JAGM-F missile studies and analysis for the Navy for their F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-35C aircraft, and an additional $5M on a separate line for the USMC for their F/A-18C/D, AV-8B and F-35B/C aircraft.

The second amendment (EB2 177) requests a briefing by the Department of the Navy to the committee on the services' plans for JAGM-F integration on its fighter aircraft to replace the Laser Maverick missile that will be out of inventory in the coming decade. This type of briefing request is expected when the committee authorizes additional funding, to ensure the services have a good plan moving forward.

The US Air Force has requested $31.596M in the FY19 budget to begin JAGM-F integration activities on their aircraft, and the $10M for the DoN will allow both the Navy and Marine Corps to begin their studies and analysis in concert with the Air Force in FY19 and beyond.

The JAGM-F missile is an eject-launched, fighter-capable derivative the JAGM missile that is a dual-mode seeker missile incorporating an active millimeter-wave radar and a semi-active laser seeker. The JAGM missile is a follow-on to the the Hellfire missile and will IOC on the US Army's Apache helicopter and the US Marine Corps' Cobra helicopter.


More digging found this in the FY2019 budget.

Joint Air-to-Ground Missile for Fixed Wing Aircraft (JAGM-F) is an improvement to the Army's JAGM which will allow the missile to be released from fixed wing aircraft in order to eliminate time sensitive moving targets and high value covered/sheltered targets. JAGM-F will be able to combat adverse weather/low visibility battlefield and countermeasure environments and austere communication environments and have the ability to engage multiple targets types near simultaneously in multiple engagement modes. Efforts include but are not limited to testing, qualification, and design/build demo components to production standards. Intent is to meet all BRU-55, BRU-57, and BRU-61 environments.

http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y201 ... B_2019.pdf

So, the outstanding question of how the JAGM is to be internally carried in the F-35 is put to paper, it will use the SDB's BRU-61 rack. That should give it some good CAS flexibility. Imagine 2xSDB1, 2xSDB2, and 4xJAGM-F internal for CAS.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 23:23
by wrightwing
I wouldn't be surprised if the APKWS is integrated, too. Both of these systems will provide a lot of flexibility in missions, where high precision/low collateral damage, is needed.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 23:25
by SpudmanWP
And LZuni (twice the Hellfire warhead at a fraction of the cost).

I doubt if either will be internal though.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 23:27
by wrightwing
SpudmanWP wrote:And LZuni (twice the Hellfire warhead at a fraction of the cost).

I doubt if either will be internal though.

I agree, but for a CAS, etc.... mission, external weapons won't be an issue.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 01:55
by marauder2048
The Naval Air Warfare Center, Aircraft Division, Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst, NJ (NAWCADLKE) intends to negotiate on a sole source basis with CoAspire LLC (CAGE 6UKK9), 4031 University Blvd. Suite 100, Fairfax, VA 22030 who is the sole source provider of analysis, test and evaluation services required to perform physical fit checks for the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) on issues involving Joint Air-to-Ground Munition (JAGM) and Joint Air-to-Ground Munition-Fixed Wing (JAGM-F). The analyses required for this effort will support future storage compatibility and air worthiness efforts of the JAGM-F on the F/A-18C/D, F/A-18E/F, AV-8B, F-35B and F-35C aircraft. Only CoAspire has the unique expertise necessary to perform the physical fit checks of the OEM's JAGM-F Outer Mold Line (OML) models.


https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=e33322092f5069a45a452f7271ffd72e&tab=core&_cview=0

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 03:22
by count_to_10
I thought the JAGM was now just called Hellfire II.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 04:01
by Corsair1963
wrightwing wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the APKWS is integrated, too. Both of these systems will provide a lot of flexibility in missions, where high precision/low collateral damage, is needed.



As I've stated in the past. I am curious if they could fit a couple APKWS tubes in either the inner or outer Weapon Bay Doors of the F-35??? While, four 2.75 rockets doesn't sound like much. The new APKWS are very accurate and cheap. These could be carried regardless of the mission. As they have no impact on the internal or external weapons load. Plus, their small size and weight would have virtually no impact on performance.


Just for example let's say a flight of four F-35A's where on a CAP Mission. (Air to Air) Yet, an urgent call came in. That a Special Forces Team was spotted and surrounded by a company of enemy troops. In this case even four F-35's on a purely Air Superiority Mission. Would have 16 precision-guided rockets to bring to the fight. In addition the 25mm Cannon.....As a matter of fact this has happen a number of times in the fight against terrorism. (Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria)

Here's something similar from an F-102....

f102 falcon missile 1.jpg


ROCKET.png


apkws-unit.jpg

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 04:14
by spazsinbad
What effect would the APKWS [as described above - in the doors] exhaust have on the F-35? IF ANY will this affect the stealth properties of the aircraft?

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 04:43
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:What effect would the APKWS [as described above - in the doors] exhaust have on the F-35? IF ANY will this affect the stealth properties of the aircraft?


Prolly dirty up the interior of those weps bays some. The pneumatics engineers are always pretty proud of how their pneumatic weapons ejection system not only works really well, but is super clean. Lot of open plumbing and whatnot in those bays. Keeping them clean as possible is probably a good idea.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 05:04
by marauder2048
In the F-102, how did the exhaust from the forward rockets not damage the aft rockets?

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 06:44
by Corsair1963
I would "assume" the tubes would be open at the rear. So, the exhaust gases would exit directly backwards and away for the aircraft. That or maybe even angled slightly outward. In order to provide adequate separation.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 11:32
by spazsinbad
OH DEAR OH DEARIE ME - I've seen what rocket exhausts do to the rocket pods - it ain't purdy.
MODEL F-102A FLIGHT TRAINING MANUAL
01 Jul 1956 TRAINING SECTION PRODUCTION FLIGHT DEPARTMENT CONVAIR

"...K. EXTERIOR FINISH. Because of the corrosive effects of deposits left by missile motor combustion, the entire exterior surface of the airplane except for the titanium and plastic components, is finished with the following special treatment: aluminum alloys are painted with one coat of wash prime, one coat of zinc chromate primer, and one coat of aircraft_grey enamel. Magnesium receives the same treatment except that two coats of zinc chromate_primer are used...." [physical page 20]
&
"...The armament bay doors, which complete the fairing of the armament bays, contain rocket tubes in which 24 two-inch folding-fin rockets are stored and from which they are launched...." [physical page 15]

Source: http://www.filefactory.com/file/qtejuhf ... Manual.pdf (44Mb)

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 14:37
by ricnunes
count_to_10 wrote:I thought the JAGM was now just called Hellfire II.


No, I don't think it is.

The Hellfire II is the second generation Hellfire which came up in the 1990's which includes many variants whose traditionally the "most popular ones" are (at least in the "Anti-Tank" role) the AGM-114K Laser Guided Hellfire II and the AGM-114L Radar Guided Hellfire II (the -L stands for Longbow which is the name of the Apache's Radar).
As opposed the "Hellfire I" or simply Hellfire represents the very first generation of Hellfire missiles which came up in the early 1980's which included for example the AGM-114A.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 21:26
by wrightwing
Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the APKWS is integrated, too. Both of these systems will provide a lot of flexibility in missions, where high precision/low collateral damage, is needed.



As I've stated in the past. I am curious if they could fit a couple APKWS tubes in either the inner or outer Weapon Bay Doors of the F-35??? While, four 2.75 rockets doesn't sound like much. The new APKWS are very accurate and cheap. These could be carried regardless of the mission. As they have no impact on the internal or external weapons load. Plus, their small size and weight would have virtually no impact on performance.


Just for example let's say a flight of four F-35A's where on a CAP Mission. (Air to Air) Yet, an urgent call came in. That a Special Forces Team was spotted and surrounded by a company of enemy troops. In this case even four F-35's on a purely Air Superiority Mission. Would have 16 precision-guided rockets to bring to the fight. In addition the 25mm Cannon.....As a matter of fact this has happen a number of times in the fight against terrorism. (Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria)

Here's something similar from an F-102....

f102 falcon missile 1.jpg


ROCKET.png


apkws-unit.jpg

No way to do that without changing the outer mold line, and no need for stealthy carriage of the APKWS. If they were going to integrate a weapon into the bay doors, it'd be MSDM. For CAS, your much better off with the 19rd launchers.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 04:44
by squirrelshoes
I agree with wrightwing, if they absolutely had to put APKWS on F-35 for CAS they'd just take the easiest/cheapest/safest solution and qualify it for pods under the wings. It wouldn't make sense to spend the money and effort to modify F-35 bay doors to carry just a few rockets.

I wonder if they could rig it to carry that mini-SDB glide weapon that SOCOM has become enamored with (I forget the name) it's got a bigger punch than Hellfire but is only about 3 1/2 feet long and much smaller width than SDB. That would give 'em a APKWS magazine dept but could use flying clean and have a bigger pop per round.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 05:47
by steve2267
squirrelshoes wrote:I wonder if they could rig it to carry that mini-SDB glide weapon that SOCOM has become enamored with (I forget the name) it's got a bigger punch than Hellfire but is only about 3 1/2 feet long and much smaller width than SDB. That would give 'em a APKWS magazine dept but could use flying clean and have a bigger pop per round.


I found the GBU-44/B Viper Strike glide weapon.

Then there is the AGM-176 Griffin missile (about 38lbs or so with a 13lb warhead). Also here: https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/griffin-missile.

Lastly, I found GBU-69/B Small Glide Munition, which apparently SOCOM really likes.

https://www.janes.com/article/78677/ussocom-boosts-gbu-69-b-sgm-stocks

Image

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 10:36
by squirrelshoes
Yeah GBU-69 was the one I was referring to, it's got a ball-buster of a warhead (36 lbs) for something it's size since glide weapon like SDB. They detail dimensions here: https://www.dynetics.com/_files/strike- ... %20SGM.pdf
L: 42"
W: 4.5"

I wonder how many of those they could fit in an F-35 bay?

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 20:43
by knowan
squirrelshoes wrote:Yeah GBU-69 was the one I was referring to, it's got a ball-buster of a warhead (36 lbs) for something it's size since glide weapon like SDB. They detail dimensions here: https://www.dynetics.com/_files/strike- ... %20SGM.pdf
L: 42"
W: 4.5"

I wonder how many of those they could fit in an F-35 bay?


Given the F-35 can hold 4 GBU-39 per bay, with each GBU-39 being 70.8" long by 7.5" wide, the 2 x 2 stack of GBU-39s would be at least 141.6" long by 15" wide.

That gives enough space for a 3 x 3 stack of GBU-69s with space to spare, so a total of 9 bombs per bay.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 02:36
by count_to_10
steve2267 wrote:
squirrelshoes wrote:I wonder if they could rig it to carry that mini-SDB glide weapon that SOCOM has become enamored with (I forget the name) it's got a bigger punch than Hellfire but is only about 3 1/2 feet long and much smaller width than SDB. That would give 'em a APKWS magazine dept but could use flying clean and have a bigger pop per round.


I found the GBU-44/B Viper Strike glide weapon.

Then there is the AGM-176 Griffin missile (about 38lbs or so with a 13lb warhead). Also here: https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/griffin-missile.

Lastly, I found GBU-69/B Small Glide Munition, which apparently SOCOM really likes.

https://www.janes.com/article/78677/ussocom-boosts-gbu-69-b-sgm-stocks

Image

I wouldn’t be surprised if you could fit 12 of those in each bay,.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 18:27
by knowan
count_to_10 wrote:I wouldn’t be surprised if you could fit 12 of those in each bay,.


If they could work out some way to stack them vertically on top of each other, I wouldn't be surprised if they could fit 18 per bay.

Re: Will JAGM be intergrated with F-35?

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 19:40
by marauder2048
If anything, I would expect a version of AGM-176 to be integrated since there is an aft-eject
version. GBU-69 is interesting since it re-uses elements of front-end from APKWS.

In a very loose sense, it's a subset of the Army's modular missile technology where they
want to be able to have common payload, seeker, guidance sections that are on both a
FFAR and a glide bomb and then the only difference is the actuator section.