British weapons for the F-35

F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.
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aussiebloke

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Unread post08 Aug 2019, 06:37

magitsu wrote:
Classic JASSM is probably unavailable without redesign due to turbine manufacturer Teledyne leaving the business.


According to the DoD’s FY2020 budget papers “The last JASSM-Baseline was delivered on 20 December 18“.

All subsequent deliveries of JASSM are either JASSM-ER or from October 2022 the AGM-158D (this appears to be what was previously referred to as JASSM-XR or JASSM Extended Range).
https://apps.dtic.mil/procurement/Y2020 ... B_2020.pdf
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element1loop

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Unread post08 Aug 2019, 08:45

magitsu wrote:Classic JASSM is probably unavailable without redesign due to turbine manufacturer Teledyne leaving the business. Same turbine (Teledyne CAE J402-CA-100) was apparently in certain other missiles too (Harpoon?). It probably could use WDL aka 2-way datalink from -ER too at the same time.

But the family is looking at increased demand (new factory in Alabama), so they will be developed further.
https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... les/158943


Yes, saw that story on the JASSM production expansion. Good news, plus demand expressed for more LRASM.

Brit F-35B won't be able to carry JSM, JSOW-C1 or JSOW-ER internally, external only, so they may have to develop some internal alternative to JSOW-C1 carried on the A and C.

As per ...

timmymagic wrote:SmartGlider Heavy though is interesting. The UK needs a a heavier weapon that PWIV with its 500lb warhead. EPWIII and PWII are not going to be carried by F-35 for the UK and the UK lacks a longer range gliding weapon. The template for SmartGlider Heavy should be JSOW. A weapon with modular payloads would be very useful.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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element1loop

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Unread post08 Aug 2019, 09:08

aussiebloke wrote:According to the DoD’s FY2020 budget papers “The last JASSM-Baseline was delivered on 20 December 18“.


JASSM's claimed range is ~370 km while Kongsberg claims 500 km for JSM, which has proper NSM-like anti-ship capabilities too. So that's most likely the next general-purpose stealth cruise strike weapon from here. Japan made a $71 million USD order in March for an unknown number of JSM.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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marauder2048

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Unread post08 Aug 2019, 19:05

magitsu wrote:It probably could use WDL aka 2-way datalink from -ER too at the same time.


It was dropped from -ER a decade ago.
LRASM has it and it might find its way back onto the rest of the family.

Has anyone actually found a reliable unit cost for JSM? The 250+ nm range, ~ $500k unit cost
category seems to be pretty vacant aside from JSOW-ER.
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squirrelshoes

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Unread post10 Aug 2019, 19:00

element1loop wrote:JASSM's claimed range is ~370 km while Kongsberg claims 500 km for JSM, which has proper NSM-like anti-ship capabilities too. So that's most likely the next general-purpose stealth cruise strike weapon from here. Japan made a $71 million USD order in March for an unknown number of JSM.

I think Japan is buying JSM to be able to sink Chinese ships, it's got a warhead appropriate for taking ships out of action more than being a general purpose cruise missile. JASSM-ER can go 925km with a 1,000lb warhead, which gives it a lot more land attack applications than JSM.
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garrya

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Unread post10 Sep 2019, 17:55

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hythelday

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 09:58

F-35B jets to get Meteor missile ‘middle of this decade’
By George Allison, September 11, 2020

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/f-35b-j ... is-decade/

Jeremy Quin, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“Initial development work for Meteor integration has progressed well. Final contract award is currently under negotiation which, on current plans, would deliver the integration of Meteor on the F-35B Lightning in the middle of this decade.”

[...]

BAE Systems has received an initial funding award from Lockheed Martin, the prime contractor on the F-35 programme, to start integration efforts for MBDA’s Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile and SPEAR precision surface attack missile. Under this initial package of work BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin will also complete further integration work with MBDA on ASRAAM and with Raytheon on Paveway IV, initially integrated in support of delivering Initial Operating Capability for the UK.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 11:47

squirrelshoes wrote:
element1loop wrote:JASSM's claimed range is ~370 km while Kongsberg claims 500 km for JSM, which has proper NSM-like anti-ship capabilities too. So that's most likely the next general-purpose stealth cruise strike weapon from here. Japan made a $71 million USD order in March for an unknown number of JSM.

I think Japan is buying JSM to be able to sink Chinese ships, it's got a warhead appropriate for taking ships out of action more than being a general purpose cruise missile. JASSM-ER can go 925km with a 1,000lb warhead, which gives it a lot more land attack applications than JSM.


I think JSM and JASSM-ER compliment each other very well. JASSM-ER is definitely the heavy hitter while JSM is good for smaller and softer targets like ships, SAM systems and ballistic missile launchers for example. But it seems that Japan is not buying that kind of land-attack capability (too offensive perhaps). Interesting though that Japan is developing domestic supersonic anti-ship missile ASM-3 with 400 km range and Mach 3+ speed. Of course that's way too big for F-35 internal carry.
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timmymagic

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Unread post21 Sep 2020, 12:30

hythelday wrote:F-35B jets to get Meteor missile ‘middle of this decade’
By George Allison, September 11, 2020

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/f-35b-j ... is-decade/

Jeremy Quin, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“Initial development work for Meteor integration has progressed well. Final contract award is currently under negotiation which, on current plans, would deliver the integration of Meteor on the F-35B Lightning in the middle of this decade.”

[...]

BAE Systems has received an initial funding award from Lockheed Martin, the prime contractor on the F-35 programme, to start integration efforts for MBDA’s Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile and SPEAR precision surface attack missile. Under this initial package of work BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin will also complete further integration work with MBDA on ASRAAM and with Raytheon on Paveway IV, initially integrated in support of delivering Initial Operating Capability for the UK.


This was just the confirmation of a fact that had been known for a couple of years already. Meteor would only arrive with the Block IV enhancements.

Current UK weapons on F-35 are:

Legacy Asraam
Paveway IV

Coming in 2025/6 with Block IV
- Meteor
- Spear
- Asraam CSP (Capability Sustainment Programme) - Essentially Block 6 Asraam, new UK seeker head, tech transfer from CAMM to remove obsolescence and other improvements. Completely new production to replace Legacy Asraam. It should start to be deployed on Typhoon in 2022. Promises to be the best WVR missile on earth.

Unclear at present
- Paveway IV Penetrator - This should arrive by default with Block IV, but little heard on it recently
- Spear variants - 2 variants currently under development; SpearGlide and Spear-EW. Spear Glide should be a comparatively easy integration. Spear-EW would be more complex.
- JNAAM - Joint UK/Japan programme to place an AESA seeker on Meteor. Given the delays to Meteor integration the arrival of JNAAM and Meteor integration actually coincide...

Beyond that its as clear as mud. The UK is developing the FASGW missiles with France but they're unlikely to arrive until 2030-35. The clear gaps for the UK on F-35 are; heavier munition than PWIV (potentially gliding), Anti-Shipping, long range air to ground. The worrying thing is there appears to be little urgency around closing these gaps.
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mixelflick

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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 15:34

Meteor coming online should really put it over the top insofar as air to air missions. Granted, it could probably get by with AMRAAM but realistically - it's going to be awhile before AIM-260 is on it (IF its exported). I

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near this thing carrying a Meteor or any other AAM for that matter. But especially Meteor..
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dtmdragon

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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 21:49

timmymagic wrote:
hythelday wrote:F-35B jets to get Meteor missile ‘middle of this decade’
By George Allison, September 11, 2020


Unclear at present
- Paveway IV Penetrator - This should arrive by default with Block IV, but little heard on it recently


My understanding is the press release on UK F-35B IOC-land stated the Paveway IV with Tactical Penetrator warhead will be apart of IOC-maritime at the end of this year?
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squirrelshoes

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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 22:30

timmymagic wrote:SpearGlide

First time I've heard of this.

Sounds like SDB2ish?
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timmymagic

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Unread post24 Sep 2020, 15:17

mixelflick wrote:Meteor coming online should really put it over the top insofar as air to air missions. Granted, it could probably get by with AMRAAM but realistically - it's going to be awhile before AIM-260 is on it (IF its exported). I

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near this thing carrying a Meteor or any other AAM for that matter. But especially Meteor..


I think AIM-260 will definitely be exported, Meteor is managing to get inroads into the world BVR missile market, that has to all intents and purposes been a US preserve for 50 years now (if you ignore the small numbers of SkyFlash or Super 530 users). With the US intent of stopping procurement of Amraam that trend is only going to increase, particularly when F-35 is integrated (some F-35 users Amraam stockpiles will need replacing or re-lifing around about them). Of particular interest is the adoption of Meteor by South Korea and Japan (admittedly no order placed but the JNAAM work is heading in one direction). The US is going to need to protect that market place, at the moment its main way of protecting it is by controlling integration on US platforms ahead of others.

Meteor is going to give the RN a hell of a CAP capability (in most ways it would be superior to the old F-14/Phoenix combination).
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Unread post24 Sep 2020, 15:22

timmymagic wrote:
I think AIM-260 will definitely be exported, Meteor is managing to get inroads into the world BVR missile market, that has to all intents and purposes been a US preserve for 50 years now (if you ignore the small numbers of SkyFlash or Super 530 users). With the US intent of stopping procurement of Amraam that trend is only going to increase, particularly when F-35 is integrated (some F-35 users Amraam stockpiles will need replacing or re-lifing around about them). Of particular interest is the adoption of Meteor by South Korea and Japan (admittedly no order placed but the JNAAM work is heading in one direction). The US is going to need to protect that market place, at the moment its main way of protecting it is by controlling integration on US platforms ahead of others.


When has US defense export policy ever been motivated by market share considerations?

timmymagic wrote:Meteor is going to give the RN a hell of a CAP capability (in most ways it would be superior to the old F-14/Phoenix combination).


7-inch diameter seeker and 50 lb warhead vs a 15-inch diamater seeker + 150 lb warhead?
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post24 Sep 2020, 15:48

marauder2048 wrote:
timmymagic wrote:Meteor is going to give the RN a hell of a CAP capability (in most ways it would be superior to the old F-14/Phoenix combination).


7-inch diameter seeker and 50 lb warhead vs a 15-inch diamater seeker + 150 lb warhead?


that 7-in seeker is going to be far more capable. Improved Tx/Rx losses, signal processing software, etc. And really it is the kinematics that are being discussed here. Meteor range is rather unparalleled with a throttleable ramrocket.
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