FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 02:28
by spazsinbad
The initial info about AARGM for F-35s was posted by 'brungITback' here:
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=13143&p=304346&hilit=AARGM#p304346
AARGM Block IV
Hughes, Robin. Jane's Missiles & Rockets Vol. 19, 11

"F-35 JPO expected to issue a sole source contract to Lockheed Martin to assist Block 4 integration efforts of an extended range AARGM variant into Lightning II....

...In the interim, the F-35 Lightning II Joint Program Office (JPO) is expected to award Lockheed Martin a sole source contract in October 2015 to complete a study to assist the NAVAIR Program Executive Office for Unmanned Aviation and Strike Weapons (PMA-242) in Block 4 integration efforts for an extended range (ER) variant of AARGM for internal carriage on the F-35A/C aircraft...."

Following on from that start here is the USN update on the AARGM.
Photo Release: AARGM moves forward with integrated test
15 Oct 2015 PEO(U&W) Public Affairs

"NAVAL AIR SYSTEMS COMMAND, PATUXENT RIVER, Md. – An F/A-18 E/F launches a Block I Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM) during test firings over the Point Mugu Sea Range in August 2015. AARGM completed the first phase of Block 1 integrated test in September after demonstrating the missile's effectiveness against a land based air defense unit target in an operationally relevant environment. The second phase of testing is scheduled to begin this fall. (U.S. Navy photo)"

"Multiple Block I Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missiles (AARGM) moments before hitting a mobile ship target during a test in August 2015 near Point M ..." Photo 1 (cropped): http://www.navair.navy.mil/img/uploads/MMM_0017.JPG (original 4.1Mb)
PHOTO 2: http://www.navair.navy.mil/img/uploads/DT-14.png (original 0.3Mb)


Source: http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... ry&id=6079

AARGM INFO here:
"...Platform compatibility: F-35, F-16 C/J..." http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... 69417C5B49

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 02:34
by sferrin
If only we'd bothered to develop the ramjet version we'd have something that could be carried internally by the F-35. :bang:

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2015, 10:38
by uclass
So for now the AARGM is only proposed as an external carry on the F-35? Seems likely given the wingspan.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2015, 13:17
by bring_it_on
The AARM-ER that should be available by the time the F-35C declares FOC is currently expected to be internally carried. It will also be a block 4 option for F-35A operators.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/263052596/Aargm-Er-Rfi

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2015, 13:50
by popcorn
I wonder if kickstarting a modified MALD/MASSM variant might be worthwhile for SEAD/DEAD?

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2015, 17:25
by archeman
According to the RFI (thanks 'bring-it-on') just about every section of the missile is subject to review discussions except the seeker and the guidance. It does clearly state the control fins are part of the discussion:


ScreenHunter_11 Oct. 18 09.17.jpg


But the RFI also states that they want minimal changes to the aerodynamic profile so that HAS to to mean that the wing will be reduced in size ONLY as much as absolutely required to fit inside the F-35.

ScreenHunter_12 Oct. 18 09.20.jpg


10% weight growth limit is also interesting, considering the Range increase required. It's a good bet the submitting contractors will utilize every single bit of that 10%.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 19 Oct 2015, 01:09
by sferrin
One can't help but wonder where we'd be had with bothered to develop this into a usable weapon.

Image

I mean it's only been about a decade. :doh:

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2015, 23:07
by spazsinbad
Raytheon’s HCSM anti-radiation missile upgrade completes key test
26 Oct 2015 James Drew

"Raytheon and the US Air Force have completed the third round of operating testing of improved AGM-88F High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile (HARM) following a recent full-rate production decision, and the new version is now on track to be declared fit for combat.

The HARM Control Section Modification (HCSM) adds satellite and inertial navigation controls to keep the supersonic weapon on target and outside of pre-planned “zones of exclusion,” even if an emitting target switches off or a decoy switches on.

Raytheon says the last flight test of Operational Test-3 occurred on 5 August, and the new control section will be declared operational once the test series is complete.

“The main purpose of the upgrade was to address the evolving threat, incorporate advanced capabilities – GPS/digital inertial measurement unit (IMU) – that could counter ‘counter-HARM tactics’ and reduce or eliminate collateral damage and fratricide,” says Bill Reaves, senior manager for Raytheon Air Warfare Systems.

In a recent test from a Lockheed Martin F-16, the HCSM AGM-88F successfully navigated onto a target without being distracted by a “radiating emitter” or decoy located inside a zone of exclusion, which in the real world could represent an area with friendly forces, civilians, or a non-combatant state...." [More about other version as seen above at URL]

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... pl-418218/

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2015, 15:48
by uclass
bring_it_on wrote:The AARM-ER that should be available by the time the F-35C declares FOC is currently expected to be internally carried. It will also be a block 4 option for F-35A operators.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/263052596/Aargm-Er-Rfi

So is this yet another weapon the B can't carry internally?

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2015, 15:52
by uclass
popcorn wrote:I wonder if kickstarting a modified MALD/MASSM variant might be worthwhile for SEAD/DEAD?

Definitely. Stick a hellfire warhead in a MALD-V, job done.*

*Probably more complicated than that but you know what I mean.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2015, 15:54
by wrightwing
uclass wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:The AARM-ER that should be available by the time the F-35C declares FOC is currently expected to be internally carried. It will also be a block 4 option for F-35A operators.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/263052596/Aargm-Er-Rfi

So is this yet another weapon the B can't carry internally?

The primary mission of the B models, is different than the A/C. The USMC's primary focus isn't flying SEAD/DEAD missions.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 16 Nov 2015, 17:38
by reaper
wrightwing wrote:
uclass wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:The AARM-ER that should be available by the time the F-35C declares FOC is currently expected to be internally carried. It will also be a block 4 option for F-35A operators.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/263052596/Aargm-Er-Rfi

So is this yet another weapon the B can't carry internally?

The primary mission of the B models, is different than the A/C. The USMC's primary focus isn't flying SEAD/DEAD missions.
You are aware that the US isn't the only customer correct?

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 16 Nov 2015, 18:20
by sferrin
uclass wrote:
popcorn wrote:I wonder if kickstarting a modified MALD/MASSM variant might be worthwhile for SEAD/DEAD?

Definitely. Stick a hellfire warhead in a MALD-V, job done.*

*Probably more complicated than that but you know what I mean.


You get what you pay for. TOR and Pantsir operators have never experienced a turkey shoot before.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 16 Nov 2015, 22:50
by bigjku
So if some other country needs a weapon to fit into the B that the US doesn't need to fit in the B isn't that technically their problem? Why reduce weapon performance to make it fit? Doesn't seem like a problem the US needs to worry about.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 16 Nov 2015, 23:00
by SpudmanWP
Given that Turkey is building an LHD, is a JSF Partner, and makes the SOM.. I could see a F-35B version of the SOM.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2015, 17:36
by uclass
bigjku wrote:So if some other country needs a weapon to fit into the B that the US doesn't need to fit in the B isn't that technically their problem? Why reduce weapon performance to make it fit? Doesn't seem like a problem the US needs to worry about.

I guess SPEAR will partially cover it but a little bit more weapon compatibility with B models would be helpful for the RAF/RN, and it would mean more sales.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 07:48
by sersi
sferrin wrote:
uclass wrote:
popcorn wrote:I wonder if kickstarting a modified MALD/MASSM variant might be worthwhile for SEAD/DEAD?

Definitely. Stick a hellfire warhead in a MALD-V, job done.*

*Probably more complicated than that but you know what I mean.


You get what you pay for. TOR and Pantsir operators have never experienced a turkey shoot before.


The DARPA and AFRL persistent area dominance program is interesting for this very reason. Releasing dozens on autonomous mini drones similar to the Switchblade would be an effective solution against the S400's point defenses. Cheap and numerous enough to swamp any defense.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 18:12
by uclass
sersi wrote:The DARPA and AFRL persistent area dominance program is interesting for this very reason. Releasing dozens on autonomous mini drones similar to the Switchblade would be an effective solution against the S400's point defenses. Cheap and numerous enough to swamp any defense.

There was talk of a 1,000km variant of ATACMS and even an SLIRBM program, that would also be useful. Especially if they could be loaded with cluster munition warhead.

http://defensetech.org/2013/10/22/army- ... e-systems/

Or even mastercard:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Success ... e_999.html

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2015, 22:31
by sferrin
uclass wrote:
sersi wrote:The DARPA and AFRL persistent area dominance program is interesting for this very reason. Releasing dozens on autonomous mini drones similar to the Switchblade would be an effective solution against the S400's point defenses. Cheap and numerous enough to swamp any defense.

There was talk of a 1,000km variant of ATACMS and even an SLIRBM program, that would also be useful. Especially if they could be loaded with cluster munition warhead.

http://defensetech.org/2013/10/22/army- ... e-systems/

Or even mastercard:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Success ... e_999.html



A 2-stage ATACMS with guided submunitions would be the way to go.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2015, 17:19
by uclass
sferrin wrote:
A 2-stage ATACMS with guided submunitions would be the way to go.

I don't know if there's any need to guide the submunitions if the missile itself is accurate enough and trying to guide hypersonic submunitions is probably tricky/expensive.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2015, 19:26
by SpudmanWP
They could fix the issues with BAT as ATACMS could carry 13 of them.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2015, 19:44
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:They could fix the issues with BAT as ATACMS could carry 13 of them.



BAT submunitions are subsonic. The ones I'm thinking of would not be. More like mini-RVs.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2015, 19:47
by sferrin
uclass wrote:
sferrin wrote:
A 2-stage ATACMS with guided submunitions would be the way to go.

I don't know if there's any need to guide the submunitions if the missile itself is accurate enough and trying to guide hypersonic submunitions is probably tricky/expensive.


The point is to disperse the submunitions outside S-400s range so they can't just hit the bus. And you don't want to just shotgun it from that far, also the submunitions would be low in number so if you did that you're likelihood of hitting anything would be small. We're talking maybe 40 20lb submunitions.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2015, 13:05
by popcorn
Anyway, in the present, AARGM is demonstrating it's potential. AARGM-ER launched from the F-35 internal weapon's bay will be much more lethal.
http://www.defencetalk.com/orbital-atks ... hit-65951/
Orbital ATK’s Upgraded AARGM Missile Scores Direct Hit
Orbital ATK, Inc. and the U.S. Navy successfully launched and scored a direct hit against an advanced enemy air defense radar system during a live fire test of the AGM-88E Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM) Block 1 Software Upgrade at China Lake Naval Air Warfare Center on Sept. 22, 2015.

The AARGM Block 1 Software Upgrade shot was launched from a U.S. Navy F/A-18F Super Hornet in a complex scenario designed to test the missile’s capability against an advanced air defense radar threat. Prior to launch, AARGM successfully detected, identified and located the target using its anti-radiation homing receiver. This information was relayed directly to the pilot who then launched the AARGM in Target of Opportunity mode. The missile’s millimeter wave radar located the target and performed terminal guidance resulting in a direct hit on the target...

“This is the second live fire test of the AARGM Block 1 Software Upgrade,” said Gordon Turner, vice president of programs, business development and strategy for Defense Electronic Systems. “Another key attribute of the Block 1 upgrade capability, engagement of moving ships, was successfully demonstrated a few weeks earlier further validating the versatility and capability of the weapon.”

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2016, 20:46
by garrya
AARGM-ER(Courtesy James Drew)
Image

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2016, 21:03
by SpudmanWP
The AARGM-ER's IOC is planned for 2023. Since it's just a motor & fuselage update based on the warhead, seeker, avionics, etc from a Block1 AARGM, it looks doable in that timeframe.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2016, 21:29
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:The AARGM-ER's IOC is planned for 2023. Since it's just a motor & fuselage update based on the warhead, seeker, avionics, etc from a Block1 AARGM, it looks doable in that timeframe.


If this were the 60s 2018 would be a reasonable IOC. :bang:

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2016, 23:00
by popcorn
AARGM-ER looks nothing like the original.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2016, 23:11
by SpudmanWP
popcorn wrote:AARGM-ER looks nothing like the original.


11.5" motor instead of a 10" one
Strakes instead of large midbody fins
Probably 1 to 1.5 feet shorter.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2016, 23:23
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:
popcorn wrote:AARGM-ER looks nothing like the original.


11.5" motor instead of a 10" one
Strakes instead of large midbody fins
Probably 1 to 1.5 feet shorter.


I think he meant this one:
AARGM2_zps2eb414ac.jpg~original.jpg


I hope it's not 1 - 1.5' shorter. That would be a fat tub.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2016, 00:19
by jessmo111
sferrin wrote:
uclass wrote:
sersi wrote:The DARPA and AFRL persistent area dominance program is interesting for this very reason. Releasing dozens on autonomous mini drones similar to the Switchblade would be an effective solution against the S400's point defenses. Cheap and numerous enough to swamp any defense.

There was talk of a 1,000km variant of ATACMS and even an SLIRBM program, that would also be useful. Especially if they could be loaded with cluster munition warhead.

http://defensetech.org/2013/10/22/army- ... e-systems/

Or even mastercard:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Success ... e_999.html



A 2-stage ATACMS with guided submunitions would be the way to go.


Wouldn't this make the Army relevant again in the Pacific? Also the USN might be interested in a VL version of this weapon.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2016, 04:49
by sersi
garrya wrote:AARGM-ER(Courtesy James Drew)
Image



Are there any better pics of the AARGM re-design than this? My Google-Fu has has failed me.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2016, 06:25
by SpudmanWP
Nothing wrong with your Google-Fu... IIRC that was it's public unveiling.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 01:38
by blain
Here is the AARGM_ER fact sheet from Orbital ATK.

https://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-syst ... 0FINAL.pdf

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 03:03
by white_lightning35
Poor b variants. They miss out on a a lot of the cool stuff.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2017, 05:27
by popcorn
Nice. The mmw seeker should enable to discriminate and target specific vehicles transporting relocatable AD components.
Then confirm the kill.
https://defensesystems.com/articles/201 ... /navy.aspx

Navy adds millimeter wave radar to AGM-88B anti-radiation

The U.S. Navy is working with Orbital ATK to convert AGM-88B High Speed Anti-Radiation Missiles into 25 AGM-88E Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM) All-Up-Rounds as part of an effort to destroy relocatable air defenses.

Additional features of the AARGM include weapon-impact-assessment transmit, millimeter wave radar terminal seeker, global positioning system/Inertial Navigation System guidance, net-centric connectivity, and digital, anti-radiation homing sensor.

AGM-88E AARGM is used by the U.S. Navy, U.S. Marine Corps, and the Italian Air Force, to engage and destroy hostile air defenses and mobile targets that are time sensitive.

The AARGM was developed by Orbital ATK as a medium-range, air-to-ground missile. The main goal of this technology is to target enemy air defenses. This updated missile is designed to engage relocatable Integrated Air Defense targets.

Updates to this missile provide new capabilities include such features as advanced signal processing, improved frequency coverage, detection range, and field of view; missile-impact zone control to prevent collateral damage and bomb damage assessment, according to Orbital ATK.

AARGM will include the latest software and enhanced capabilities. The AARGM system is designed to be used as a counter radar shutdown. In addition, both a passive radar and an active millimeter wave seekers will be installed on the AARGM.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 26 Oct 2017, 19:51
by wolfpak
Would probably work well against TBM TEL's if it had those templates.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 00:11
by popcorn
wolfpak wrote:Would probably work well against TBM TEL's if it had those templates.

SDB-II more cost-effective.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 00:16
by archeman
white_lightning35 wrote:Poor b variants. They miss out on a a lot of the cool stuff.


We'll always have Paris....


...And External Carry

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 01:52
by optimist
The LHD's aren't going anywhere by themselves, There won't be a shortage of things that go bang.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 13:20
by hornetfinn
F-35 and AARGM combo sounds like a real killer. Thinking about it from AD radar operator PoV it sounds like nightmare. Having almost invisible ARM shooter with capabilities to counter short emission duration and shut-down tactics is very difficult one to counter and psychologically really tough to handle. With older SEAD aircraft the operators had pretty good idea what was in the air (even with EW) and when they were under attack. There were tactics to counter ARM attacks because of it. With F-35 and AARGM the uncertainty grows a lot and makes it very dangerous to emit radar signals. It might well be that radar blowing up is the first signal of being under attack. AARGM looks like it might have very low RCS itself and is likely quite a bit faster and longer ranged than HARM.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 16:20
by wrightwing
hornetfinn wrote:F-35 and AARGM combo sounds like a real killer. Thinking about it from AD radar operator PoV it sounds like nightmare. Having almost invisible ARM shooter with capabilities to counter short emission duration and shut-down tactics is very difficult one to counter and psychologically really tough to handle. With older SEAD aircraft the operators had pretty good idea what was in the air (even with EW) and when they were under attack. There were tactics to counter ARM attacks because of it. With F-35 and AARGM the uncertainty grows a lot and makes it very dangerous to emit radar signals. It might well be that radar blowing up is the first signal of being under attack. AARGM looks like it might have very low RCS itself and is likely quite a bit faster and longer ranged than HARM.

^^^^This.

AARGM has a longer range than HARM. AARGM-ER has double the range of AARGM. This makes for a very potent combination, for SEAD/DEAD.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 17:52
by sferrin
wrightwing wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:F-35 and AARGM combo sounds like a real killer. Thinking about it from AD radar operator PoV it sounds like nightmare. Having almost invisible ARM shooter with capabilities to counter short emission duration and shut-down tactics is very difficult one to counter and psychologically really tough to handle. With older SEAD aircraft the operators had pretty good idea what was in the air (even with EW) and when they were under attack. There were tactics to counter ARM attacks because of it. With F-35 and AARGM the uncertainty grows a lot and makes it very dangerous to emit radar signals. It might well be that radar blowing up is the first signal of being under attack. AARGM looks like it might have very low RCS itself and is likely quite a bit faster and longer ranged than HARM.

^^^^This.

AARGM has a longer range than HARM. AARGM-ER has double the range of AARGM. This makes for a very potent combination, for SEAD/DEAD.


HARM is AARGM. Same airframe, same motor. The only thing that changed was the electronics and sensors. AARGM was originally supposed to be a ducted rocket variant. In the end they cheaped out and only updated the brains. AARGM-ER is a completely different beast for which there are NO plans to move forward with. It's a concept only at this point.

AARGM2_zps2eb414ac.jpg

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 18:08
by SpudmanWP
AARGM-ER is a completely different beast for which there are NO plans to move forward with. It's a concept only at this point.


Au contraire mon frère

It is a well funded R&D project in the FY2018 budget.

Image

http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y201 ... B_2018.pdf

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 18:45
by sferrin
In this instance I'm delighted to be wrong. :notworthy:

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 18:57
by SpudmanWP
That is not to say that the ATK "proposal" for AARGM-ER will be the winning proposal. In that aspect you are right.

It very well might end up being a VFDR AARGM such as these recent items that have appeared.

Image
Image

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 19:27
by sferrin
That bottom one is relatively old. HSAD. Here's another view of that Raytheon configuration:

HARM_VFDR.jpg

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 19:28
by sferrin
There are several floating around out there that look very similar. That one on the Phantom above. . .I've seen shots of the same configuration but about AIM-120 diameter on an F-16. I've seen various acronyms associated with them.

hsads.png


F-16_Missile.jpg

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2017, 19:52
by SpudmanWP
sferrin wrote:That bottom one is relatively old. HSAD. Here's another view of that Raytheon configuration:


I thought so to, but there are several differences between the missiles.

In your example the missile is ejector launched, its VFDR duct inlet is angled down, and its nose is pointed where in my example it is a rail launched missile, its VFDR inlets that are perpendicular to the direction of travel, and it's nose is more rounded.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2017, 03:43
by popcorn
hornetfinn wrote:F-35 and AARGM combo sounds like a real killer. Thinking about it from AD radar operator PoV it sounds like nightmare. Having almost invisible ARM shooter with capabilities to counter short emission duration and shut-down tactics is very difficult one to counter and psychologically really tough to handle. With older SEAD aircraft the operators had pretty good idea what was in the air (even with EW) and when they were under attack. There were tactics to counter ARM attacks because of it. With F-35 and AARGM the uncertainty grows a lot and makes it very dangerous to emit radar signals. It might well be that radar blowing up is the first signal of being under attack. AARGM looks like it might have very low RCS itself and is likely quite a bit faster and longer ranged than HARM.



IADS commander's dilemma : "Use 'em or lose them".

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2017, 08:41
by neptune
popcorn wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:F-35 and AARGM combo sounds like a real killer. Thinking about it from AD radar operator PoV it sounds like nightmare. Having almost invisible ARM shooter with capabilities to counter short emission duration and shut-down tactics is very difficult one to counter and psychologically really tough to handle. With older SEAD aircraft the operators had pretty good idea what was in the air (even with EW) and when they were under attack. There were tactics to counter ARM attacks because of it. With F-35 and AARGM the uncertainty grows a lot and makes it very dangerous to emit radar signals. It might well be that radar blowing up is the first signal of being under attack. AARGM looks like it might have very low RCS itself and is likely quite a bit faster and longer ranged than HARM.



IADS commander's dilemma : "Use 'em or lose them".


....would one really waste an AARGM on a radar or the command and control center. Shirley it can distinguish the difference!
:)

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2017, 08:59
by popcorn
neptune wrote:
popcorn wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:F-35 and AARGM combo sounds like a real killer. Thinking about it from AD radar operator PoV it sounds like nightmare. Having almost invisible ARM shooter with capabilities to counter short emission duration and shut-down tactics is very difficult one to counter and psychologically really tough to handle. With older SEAD aircraft the operators had pretty good idea what was in the air (even with EW) and when they were under attack. There were tactics to counter ARM attacks because of it. With F-35 and AARGM the uncertainty grows a lot and makes it very dangerous to emit radar signals. It might well be that radar blowing up is the first signal of being under attack. AARGM looks like it might have very low RCS itself and is likely quite a bit faster and longer ranged than HARM.



IADS commander's dilemma : "Use 'em or lose them".


....would one really waste an AARGM on a radar or the command and control center. Shirley it can distinguish the difference!
:)

Why not both? Equally worthy IMO.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2018, 00:34
by popcorn
ATK has been awarded a contract to begin development of the New Air Defense Blasting Missile (NADBM) :mrgreen: or AARGM-ER as it's officially known. In a smart move to speed things up, it's being justified as an update and modification of the existing AGM-88E.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... nside-f-35

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2018, 03:20
by neptune
popcorn wrote:........would one really waste an AARGM on a radar or the command and control center. Shirley it can distinguish the difference!
:)

Why not both? Equally worthy IMO.[/quote]

....people;
1- time and money spent on C2 training and experience in your "former" frontline missile bait unit; replacing them with available "new" frontline missile bait people
2- new missile bait people "say" they accept (not!) their new C2 assignments from the "loss" of the previous missile bait people in the same site as new missile bait!
3- sitting in a truck waiting to develop tracks that show the timing of your own demise as C2 missile bait
4- having 300 sets of hardware in the warehouse with anxious C2 people to become missile bait, become a bit less effective
:wink:

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2018, 03:25
by steve2267
Hampton wasn't terribly keen on the HARM. He shirley did like cluster bombs, though. I think he said they were a fighter pilot's shotgun.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2018, 18:42
by wolfpak
From Wiki:

"The W80 is physically quite small: the "physics package" itself is about the size of a conventional Mk.81 250-pound (110 kg) bomb, 11.8 inches (30 cm) in diameter and 31.4 inches (80 cm) long, and only slightly heavier at about 290 pounds (130 kg)."

If the AARGM airframe could carry the above it would make for a formidable weapon for both the F-35 and B-21. Like what they envisioned the T-SRAM II for the F-15E before the end of the cold war.

Re: FUTURE F-35 AARGM UPDATES

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2018, 07:25
by element1loop
wolfpak wrote:If the AARGM airframe could carry the above it would make for a formidable weapon ... .


Beauty of VLO network tech, you don't need those things (i.e. deter only).

Combine this new ARM missile with long-range precision passive targeting, already in F-35 ... scarey combo ...