F-35 with drop tanks question

[SpudmanWP]

I think something was lost in translation as there is NO WAY IN HELL anyone can "double" the range of an F-35 by adding conformal fuel tanks. There is just too much fuel in the F-35.

You would need to to carry more than 20,000 lbs of fuel in the CFTs and the F-35's max payload is only 18,000 lbs.

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Here is the source story from June 25th where they are only talking an increase of 30%, which seems a lot more doable.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/possible-revised-f-35-could-make-it-for-israel-easier-to-attack-iran-video/2015/06/25/

Approximately 1,000 miles (1,500 kilometers) separate Israel and Iran, and the current F-35 is designed to fly approximately the same distance without refueling.

The IDF has asked the range to be extended to 1,500 miles, according to Rapaport.

They seemed to even confuse 1500 km with 1500 miles from one sentence to the next. This is the likely source of the "double the range" confusion.

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Here is the original report mentioned above and they only talk in km.

http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/content/exposure-will-flight-range-f-35-be-extended-israeli-version

Lockheed Martin and the IAF are in negotiations to examine the possibility of extending the flight range of the Israeli version of the future fighter aircraft F-35 by 30%.

...

The current flight range of the F-35 stands at approximately 1150 kilometers (larger than the range of the F-15 and F-16). Extending the flight range may allow the IAF to action also against Iranian targets. Nevertheless, even the longer flight range (1,500 km) would not allow the aircraft to reach Iran and back without refueling, since Iranians targets are located at a range of at least 1000 km.

[spazsinbad]

The article at the bottom of previous page mentions both external drop fuel tanks and conformal fuel tanks. Perhaps the reference to 'double the range' was meant to infer using both types of fuel tanks at the same time? Being vague about the capability of the F-35 is a 'blood sport' [ http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meanin ... bloodsport ] I reckon.

[spazsinbad]

As a fr'instance 'allowcowboy' said this here 01 Jan 2012 in the 'F-35 External Fuel Tanks?' thread:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=16656&p=211735&hilit=calculation#p211735

"['alloycowboy']: Just did a quick calculation and a pair of 426 gallon tanks gives following increase in range.
F=35A 31% (1572 nautical miles range drag neglected)

F=35B 43% (1287 nautical miles range drag neglected)

F-35C 29% (1 806 nautical miles range drag neglected)"

[spazsinbad]

In same thread referenced above there was a link to this Nov 2011 AvWeak article which mentions an Israeli requirement for 600 gallon EFTs (not 425 gal or whatevers). Perhaps these are back in the wind also? Full article from the multi-coloured text blog reference (which makes me ill) is reproduced below so that no one else may feel same.

Israel reaffirms plans to take F-35 before USAF declares it operational
28 Nov 2011 Alon Ben-David, Aviation Week & Space Technology

"Israel stands behind the F-35.
The Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter program may face a lot of uncertainty in the U.S., but the Israeli air force (IAF) is fiercely rejecting any suggestion that it explore other alternatives to the new fighter jet and is closing around plans to take deliveries of the F-35 “at the earliest date possible.” The IAF is scheduled to receive its first F-35s for training in the U.S. in late 2016, with plans to deploy them in Israel the following year. “We will deliver Israel a fully capable Block-3 F-35A,” Dave Scott, Lockheed Martin’s F-35 business development director tells Aviation Week. Yet, with the U.S. Air Force declaring that the JSF will become operational only in 2018, it is not clear whether the first aircraft for the IAF will have full JSF software or will only allow for flight training.

Moreover, unlike most program partners, who plan to procure a limited number of aircraft from the low-rate initial production (LRIP) line while deferring massive procurement during serial production, Israel’s first squadron of 19 F-35s will be fully procured out of the LRIP line. Five aircraft in LRIP 8 are to be delivered in 2016, seven in LRIP 9 in 2017 and seven more in 2018 out of LRIP 10.

“Procuring an LRIP aircraft is like buying a prototype,” one senior Israeli defense source tells Aviation Week. “You have to assume that these aircraft will suffer from childhood diseases and will require future changes.” “It will not be different from the F-15As that Israel received in 1976,” notes a senior air force officer.

“They also had some problems of an early version but provided Israel with a critical qualitative edge over its neighbors, just like we need now with the F-35.”

Israel is still negotiating the contract for developing the unique capabilities it requires for its first F- 35 squadron under a $2.75 billion budget. Those include the installment of Israel’s Blue Cedar C4I system, as well as rewiring to accommodate Israeli electronic warfare (EW) systems in Apertures Band 2 and 5 in the belly and wings of the JSF. Israel also is planning to install an external EW pod on its F-35s.

Additional Israeli requirements, such as installing Rafael’s Python-5 air-to-air missile and Spice air-to-ground bomb in the F-35s internal weapon bay were deferred as costs of adjusting the aircraft and weapons to fit together were enormous. Israel also postponed its requirement to add a 600-gal. external fuel tank. The final contract for the first F-35 squadron should be inked by mid-2012.

As with much of Israel’s defense spending plan, developments in Iran are believed to be a consideration. Reportedly, Israeli leadership considers 2012 as the last window of opportunity to stop Iran’s suspected ambitions to develop nuclear weapons. But if the IAF is sent to launch a strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities then, it is clear the F-35 would only reach Israel after the showdown, which many experts believe could trigger a regional war.

Yet, the IAF persistently refuses to consider buying a different fighter like Boeing’s F-15s in the interim to bolster its capabilities despite repeated pleas from other defense officials. “The only potential fighter is the F-15 and it costs almost like an F-35,” said the IAF officer. “In any case, even if we place an order for new F-15s today they will arrive no earlier than the F-35.”

Instead, the IAF will upgrade its fleets of F-15A/B/C/Ds and Lockheed Martin F-16C/Ds to improve their capabilities and extend their lifespan. It will be forced to decommission its aging F-16A/Bs, as maintenance costs are skyrocketing. While the IAF is eager to start earmarking the budget for its next F-35 squadron, Israel is not ready to commit to another buy with uncertainty surrounding the future of U.S military aid to the country.

Still, beckoning Israel is Lockheed Martin’s carrot in the form of proposed contracts for Israeli industry in the F-35 program, totaling $4 billion, and the stick of canceling them. Elbit Systems’ share, in developing and manufacturing the helmet-mounted displays for the F-35, appears secure, unless the company cannot overcome the technical difficulties that recently emerged during development. Lockheed’s suggested contract with Israel Aerospace Industries — to manufacture 811 outer wings for the JSF — is more in jeopardy.

“Clearly we will not start a production line at IAI to manufacture wings for only the 19 Israeli aircraft,” said Scott. “Our proposal has the prospect of more than 15 years of IAI participation in the program.”

Sourc: http://blog.daum.net/trent/8213146

[archeman]

:...Israel will significantly improve the aircraft as it once did with the F-15 and F-16...."..

..as they did with the F-4 and the A-4..

Hey I would upgrade my car too......if somebody else was paying for it.

[alloycowboy]

Question? Has the F-35 been spotted in the wild with external drop tanks installed?

[spazsinbad]

Nope - AFAIK. Israel MoD Defense Directory 2015_16.pdf

"...Cyclone also is in the process of developing, in cooperation with Lockheed Martin, a new type of EFT."
http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/Industries/ ... ts/Defense Directory 2015_16.pdf (43Mb)

[magitsu]

This Norwegian article seems suspect. 2 hour flight time?!?

When Norway decided to acquire F-35 as a new combat aircraft, the requirement was that the new combat aircraft should be able to stay in the air for at least 4.5 hours per trip. In an internal defense memorandum, the Air Force states that it is hardly realistic with more than two hours.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

This is less suspect, but quite interesting about what the chute option might entail.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

[SpudmanWP]

That's why you buy spare chutes

[wrightwing]

This Norwegian article seems suspect. 2 hour flight time?!?

When Norway decided to acquire F-35 as a new combat aircraft, the requirement was that the new combat aircraft should be able to stay in the air for at least 4.5 hours per trip. In an internal defense memorandum, the Air Force states that it is hardly realistic with more than two hours.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

This is less suspect, but quite interesting about what the chute option might entail.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

2 hours is false.

[magitsu]

2 hours is false.

Obviously. Just trying to find a proper source to a more accurate number.

[wrightwing]

2 hours is false.

Obviously. Just trying to find a proper source to a more accurate number.

4.5 is much closer to accurate (and perhaps understated.)

[mor10]

This Norwegian article seems suspect. 2 hour flight time?!?

When Norway decided to acquire F-35 as a new combat aircraft, the requirement was that the new combat aircraft should be able to stay in the air for at least 4.5 hours per trip. In an internal defense memorandum, the Air Force states that it is hardly realistic with more than two hours.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

This is less suspect, but quite interesting about what the chute option might entail.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Google translate is not your best tool here, nor is perhaps the website. They are a tad conspiratorial in their articles.

What the Norwegian article is saying is that an average mission length of 4.5 hours is not realistic without airborn refuling. It further is saying that for the purpose of calculation how much hours will be put on the aircraft, average mission length used is 2 hours. The article further makes the deduction that the aircraft therefore only can fly for 2 hours, which is not at all what the quoted article is saying. The 2 hours is more a number used for accounting to calculate all the associated costs of using the F-35.

[basher54321]

25 April 2021

According to Walla, the Israeli Air Force Flight Testing Center (FTC) at Tel-Nof AFB is developing the external drop tanks that will help the Adir to complete long-range missions over “third circle” targets, such a hypothetical strike against Iranian objectives, without the need for aerial refueling, while also allowing an extended time on station (TOS) over the targets. The report mentions also significant progress in the integration of Israel-made missiles on the F-35I.

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The development of the new fuel tank is the result of the collaboration of Israel’s Ministry of Defense, Air Force and defense industries that aims to upgrade the strategic capabilities of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) against “third circle” countries. This process is quite delicate, as the new external fuel tanks need to not degrade too much the low observability of the F-35 and this can be done mainly through the shape and materials chosen.

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IDF sources mentioned by Walla in their report said that the development and production process of the new external fuel tanks for the F-35I Adir will not exceed two years. The first reports about the ongoing planning and initial development process were published by Aviation Week in 2019, when Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Cyclone, a subsidiary of Elbit Systems, completed the initial design studies on both a conformal fuel tank (CFT) design and a 600-gallon drop tank, respectively.



https://theaviationist.com/2021/04/25/f-35i-fuel-tanks/

[spazsinbad]

Cool beans - thanks 'basher54321'.