F-35 with drop tanks question

F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post04 Sep 2015, 21:31

:devil: Well well well... this is so obscure but wonderful indeed - whatever does it mean? You be the judge.... :doh:
Possible Revised F-35 Could Make It for Israel Easier to Attack Iran
25 Jun 2015 Tzvi Ben-Gedalyahu

"Lockheed-Martin is studying an Israel request for a longer flight range that would make refueling easier.

The manufacturer of the F-35 stealth attack plane, which Israel might use to attack Iran, is examining an Israeli request to extend the flight range by 30 percent, Amir Rapaport of the Israel Defense website reported Thursday.

Approximately 1,000 miles (1,500 kilometers) separate Israel and Iran, and the current F-35 is designed to fly approximately the same distance without refueling.

The IDF has asked the range to be extended to 1,500 miles, according to Rapaport....

...Israel Defense noted that special versions of the F-15 and F-16 include additional fuel tanks, but that option is less practical for the F-35. Even adding fuel capacity by 30 percent would make the airplane larger, challenge engineers to retain the F-35’s stealth capabilities.

IAF teams reportedly are working with Lockheed-Martin in Texas before the first F-35s are due to arrive in Israel towards the end of 2016.

As in the previous planes, Israel has introduced several improvements for the stealth fighter.
Rapaport wrote that sources said:

Israel will significantly improve the aircraft as it once did with the F-15 and F-16...."

Source: http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breakin ... 015/06/25/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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neptune

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Unread post04 Sep 2015, 22:41

spazsinbad wrote::...Israel will significantly improve the aircraft as it once did with the F-15 and F-16...."..


..as they did with the F-4 and the A-4.. :)
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KamenRiderBlade

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 06:32

Is it me, or when I see Israeli's get a new aircraft, I think they're going to mount more CFT's and Fuel tanks on everything?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 07:06

There are lots of links in this forum to the Cyclone EFTs/CFTs for Israel potential. Perhaps this contract is for the work mentioned above?

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25367&p=300265&hilit=contract+Israel#p300265
&
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=16656&p=211731&hilit=contract+Israel+cyclone#p211731

Remember the contract for 'RCS work on the pole' recently? Mebbe that is involved also?
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jessmo111

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 08:24

OK I thought the F-35A was built with a 600NM combat radius(1200Nm 1 way)? That Number includes engine performance at the end of its life, Plus a HI Hi Hi profile+ likely some comabt . How did we get back to 1000Nm miles being the range?
Is this just bad reporting? And wouldnt it be easier, to just add a cruise missile capability to cover the extra 300 mile range rather than, the diminishing returns of adding more, drag along with more tanks? Jassm-ER would get the job done.
Crap man, put the fuel probe in all of your varients, and have a F-35 or somthing else buddy tank the planes, to get an extra 300 miles.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 08:31

Reading the article says this: "...Approximately 1,000 miles (1,500 kilometers) separate Israel and Iran..." This distance is not suggested as the maximum range of the F-35A. Perhaps this next bit is misleading but we know different: "... and the current F-35 is designed to fly approximately the same distance without refueling...." In any event it is realistic - IF the aircraft is going to go beyond maximum unrefuelled range then it needs to refuel before reaching that max. range. That will take time/distance depending on circumstances.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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jessmo111

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 10:21

I read an articile on THIS very site someplace that, in some instances in can take as much as 1/2 of the fuel in the drop tanks, to make up for the induced drag penalty. CFTs are good but they will come with thier own penalities, since the plane is already considered stubby. Im suggesting that there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

1. A cruise weapon: One that can cover the distance of 300 miles while remaining internal. Im sure this will be difficult since the JSF from Norway, has a 250LB warhead, and can only travel over 100 miles Yes the physics are daunting, But this would be the close to the ideal solution.

2. External cruise missiles: that cover the distance. BUT the Jassm-ER probably wont be sold, and has its own drag penality.

3. Use buddy tanks: ALL F-35s come with the probe as an option. Here you can have a super FAT stubby with a buddy tank kit off load about 500Nms out, or fuel them agian on the return trip. The strikers, still stay 100% clean, and need very little to no modification.

4. Super fat conformal tank stubbies: I like this idea, but Im concerned about what happens when the super fat stubby gets bounced, but is suffering a serious weight penality. Lets assume the Russians are chomping at the BIt to sell Iran S-300s, and SU35s

IMHO I would take 3 since its the safer solution, and you need not modify ALl of your F-35s
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popcorn

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 11:01

Just have their 707 aerial tankers top off their tanks on the way in and meet them on the return trip.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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basher54321

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 13:42

spazsinbad wrote:Reading the article says this: "...Approximately 1,000 miles (1,500 kilometers) separate Israel and Iran..."


Guess Google maps measure tool is up the duff then because range from Hatzor to the Iran/Iraq Eastern border is 650 miles
- going to Tehran is 996 miles.
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delvo

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 13:55

popcorn wrote:Just have their 707 aerial tankers top off their tanks on the way in and meet them on the return trip.
Over what country?
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reaper

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 13:58

delvo wrote:
popcorn wrote:Just have their 707 aerial tankers top off their tanks on the way in and meet them on the return trip.
Over what country?


The Persian Gulf? It's not the shortest route but you could refuel off the Iranian coast on the way in and back out.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 14:18

There are different stories on the web about how Israel may go to Iran - via Turkey perhaps? But anyway less to do with the overall question of this thread - "F-35 with drop tanks question". NestPa?
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 14:50

If Israel wants to get in Iran, to do what we think they want to do?

- Getting there is mandatory.
- Return with the A/C to Israel is optional.
- Eject on the way home is a possibility.
------------------------------------------------

Also :
Building CFT's can be done "in house".

Using half of the internal storage for an extra internal fuel tank can be done "in house".

Take OFF and climb out at reduced weight with an airborne "top-up" before leaving home country is the easy solution.

When Israel wants to get "there"? => They will.
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zerion

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 20:36

Doesn't Israel have planes stationed in Azerbaijan? How far is that from Iran?

Never mind looks like it's about the same.
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Unread post06 Sep 2015, 06:11

I'm sorry to have put the 'Israel info' in this particular thread because there is no need for any political discussion about 'drop tank range increase or whatever'. So I'm sorry again to post this info but hey - I started it....
Eyeing Iran, Israel Readies for Stealth Strike Fighter
05 Sep 2015 Barbara Opall-Rome

"...In interviews here and in the United States, program officials said prime contractor Lockheed Martin, at Washington’s behest, is working with state-owned Rafael to adapt locally built air-to-ground weaponry for the belly of the plane.

Similarly, the contractor is assessing Israeli concepts for external wing tanks to augment the 18,000 pounds of fuel carried internally by the F-35.

“We’re studying proof of concept trade studies on carrying extra fuel,” a Lockheed Martin program official told Defense News. “After you own the air space, you won’t have to worry about stealth. So then you can add external tanks because you won’t be worried about being detected.”

Israeli defense and industry sources said that ultimately they hope to develop F-35 conformal fuel tanks that are stealthy. Nevertheless, they say it is well worth the effort given that it will more than double the range with very low risk of detection.

“It’s short-sighted to expect that all the smart people working here on conformal fuel tanks will not manage to make them stealthy," the IAF officer said...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /71608464/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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