F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2015, 19:15
by bring_it_on
Some literature on mounting HEL on the JSF:

High Energy Solid State and Free Electron Laser Systems In Tactical Aviation - Robb P Manfield, Naval Postgraduate School

https://www.scribd.com/doc/260233033/HE ... edQtJhRCUa

High Energy Laser on the Joint Strike Fighter - A Reality in 2025? - Lt. Col. Jeffrey A Hausmann (USAF) - Air War College

https://www.scribd.com/doc/260230916/JS ... ergy-Laser

Military Utility of HEL Fighter, Tom Burris, Lockheed Martin

https://www.scribd.com/doc/260232584/HE ... YG1Ff0bzUb

A HEL Testbed for High Accuracy Beam Pointing and Control - Naval Post Graduate School

https://www.scribd.com/doc/260233032/HE ... Yj1KiTE6ZL

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2015, 20:12
by spazsinbad
Thanks - I'll have to check them out - some more URLs for the collection above:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=25533&p=276885&hilit=Dunn#p276885
&
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16676&p=212183&hilit=Dunn#p212183

FOR same PDF as in the F-16.net URLs - but relocated now - so this one works: http://www.northropgrumman.com/AboutUs/ ... _of_La.pdf (0.4Mb)

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2015, 20:21
by bring_it_on
Thanks.

Here's another, more relevant given the ABC program..

Recent Airborne Aero-Optics Laboratory In-Flight Waveform Measurements of Aero-Optics and Implications for Aero-Optics Beam Control in Tactical laser Weapons.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/260233383/Ai ... OjHr1YwZyB

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2015, 22:56
by neptune
bring_it_on wrote:Thanks. ..Recent Airborne Aero-Optics Laboratory In-Flight Waveform Measurements of Aero-Optics and Implications for Aero-Optics Beam Control in Tactical laser Weapons. ..


How much electrical power is required for HEL?
How can the JSF currently provide the power required for the HEL?
Is that power requirement possible in a future configuration of the JSF?

:?: 8)

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2015, 23:03
by archeman
neptune wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:Thanks. ..Recent Airborne Aero-Optics Laboratory In-Flight Waveform Measurements of Aero-Optics and Implications for Aero-Optics Beam Control in Tactical laser Weapons. ..


How much electrical power is required for HEL?
How can the JSF currently provide the power required for the HEL?
Is that power requirement possible in a future configuration of the JSF?

:?: 8)


Related question, was this system part of the requirements set for F-35s unique 270v DC power supply?

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2015, 23:04
by bring_it_on
neptune wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:Thanks. ..Recent Airborne Aero-Optics Laboratory In-Flight Waveform Measurements of Aero-Optics and Implications for Aero-Optics Beam Control in Tactical laser Weapons. ..


How much electrical power is required for HEL?
How can the JSF currently provide the power required for the HEL?
Is that power requirement possible in a future configuration of the JSF?

:?: 8)


The material in the first post covers that in addition to the following topics -

- How much power is required from the Laser to be effective in different mission scenarios such as Air to Air (offensive), Air to Air (defensive), Air to ground etc

- What sort of power generation is going to be required under various HEL size projections

- What plans do Lockheed and others have to generate that power

- What plans do Lockheed and others have to dissipate the heat produced from generating sufficient power

They are long (250-300 pages ) but I believe them to be worth it as the analysis is quite good.

I'll post more on the future in terms of what capability at the Propulsion level is being looked at and how more demand is being met over the longer arc of time under various AFRL efforts such as INVENT and the broader VAATE.

To start you can go over this (I may have posted this earlier)

VAATE - AIAA Position paper

https://www.scribd.com/doc/254275332/VAATE

and

INVENT

https://www.scribd.com/doc/254275746/IN ... rview-Iden

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2015, 23:17
by spazsinbad
Top & Tail of this page tells an F-35 Laser story: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16676&p=212183&hilit=Dunn#p212183

In the A OR B model take out the fuel tank/LiftFan behind the pilot - add a laser - good to go....
Operational Implications of Laser Weapons
Sep 2005 Richard J. Dunn, III

"...the concept for integrating a SSL [Solid State Laser] into the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would place the laser system in the fan cavity of the short-take-off-and vertical-landing version of the aircraft and use the fan shaft to power a megawatt-sized generator..."

Source: http://www.northropgrumman.com/AboutUs/ ... _of_La.pdf (0.4Mb)

Laser Battlefield Future perhaps:
DARPA Unveils Drone-Slaying War Laser
03-08-2012 Neal Ungerleider

"A weapon that used to be the size of a passenger jet now fits on the back of a flatbed truck...."

http://images.fastcompany.com/upload/20 ... .laser.jpg

Source: http://www.fastcompany.com/1823017/darp ... rone-laser

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 00:23
by Dragon029

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 00:29
by spazsinbad
It has been repeated twice above now - the updated link to the NG PDF.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 01:45
by popcorn
HELLADS at 150kW in a750Kg/ 3-cubic meter footprint good enough to destroy aircraft for airborne testing in 2018. Can't wait.
A megawatt-class electric laser installed on a F35B? Way better.
IMO Congress and the public are going to fall in love with these things and fund them. They all grew up watching Star Wars.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 01:48
by bring_it_on
A megawatt-class electric laser installed on a F35B? Way better.


MW would be the power requirement..The laser being talked about would be about 100 KW and the papers I have seem to suggest that such a capacity is good for a2a and some a2g, although it may not cover all the a2g work/mission. A 100KW system would require around 1.1 MW of power. Even a 40KW podded system packs a punch.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 01:57
by eloise
Why would they put laser on a submarine ?
BTW, what would be the range of 100 kw laser? 1 km? 5 km? ( I mean destruction range.)

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 02:06
by bring_it_on
btw what would be the range of 100 kw laser? 1 km? 5 km? ( i mean destruction range)


A lot lot more. I would suggest that you take some time and read some of the resources presented in this thread. Keep in mind that the range depends upon the sort of target and its a combination of distance and time (among others such as clouds etc) that ultimately determines destruction.

Some snippets :

Lasers with power levels around 25 kW can be used in a defensive mode, such as negating ground-to-air missiles. Lasers with 50 kW begin to offer offensive air-to-air capabilities. To provide lethal air-to-ground effects, at least 100 kW of output power is needed.


A more detailed explanation of the various missions in the air-to-ground domain are given in the Mansfield paper which itself is cited by most of the academic work on the matter that I have come across.

More later...

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 02:12
by popcorn
bring_it_on wrote:
A megawatt-class electric laser installed on a F35B? Way better.


MW would be the power requirement..The laser being talked about would be about 100 KW and the papers I have seem to suggest that such a capacity is good for a2a and some a2g, although it may not cover all the a2g work/mission. A 100KW system would require around 1.1 MW of power. Even a 40KW podded system packs a punch.

Read the article, my bad. Still a very useful capability and worth pursuing.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 02:58
by eskodas
Awesome post and work, added it to upgrade section with credit. https://comprehensiveinformation.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/upgrades/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 04:15
by Dragon029
eloise wrote:why would they put laser on a submarine ?


As a means to defend against UAVs, small surface vessels, aircraft, etc that are trying to track it for anti-submarine weapons / platforms. Might even be able to use it to take out glide-torpedos.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 04:22
by KamenRiderBlade
Dragon029 wrote:
eloise wrote:why would they put laser on a submarine ?


As a means to defend against UAVs, small surface vessels, aircraft, etc that are trying to track it for anti-submarine weapons / platforms. Might even be able to use it to take out glide-torpedos.


Why would the submarine ever be on the surface of the water other than at their home port?

The entire purpose of the submarine is to hide underwater and never surface unless they're at home or transferring personnel & supplies.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 06:17
by eloise
bring_it_on wrote:A lot lot more. I would suggest that you take some time and read some of the resources presented in this thread. Keep in mind that the range depends upon the sort of target and its a combination of distance and time (among others such as clouds etc) that ultimately determines destruction.r...

https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=bW ... edir_esc=y
it say here the range is about 2 km though

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 06:19
by eloise
Dragon029 wrote:As a means to defend against UAVs, small surface vessels, aircraft, etc that are trying to track it for anti-submarine weapons / platforms. Might even be able to use it to take out glide-torpedos.

To do that the submarine must be surfaced, and be vulnerable to everything

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 11:50
by rotosequence
eloise wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:
As a means to defend against UAVs, small surface vessels, aircraft, etc that are trying to track it for anti-submarine weapons / platforms. Might even be able to use it to take out glide-torpedos.

to do that the submarine must be surfaced, and be vulnerable to everything


That's not entirely true; the laser could be placed in a pariscope, or other telescopic arrangement that allows the submarine to remain submerged. This is not to say that I endorse the proposed idea.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2015, 13:26
by bring_it_on
eloise wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:A lot lot more. I would suggest that you take some time and read some of the resources presented in this thread. Keep in mind that the range depends upon the sort of target and its a combination of distance and time (among others such as clouds etc) that ultimately determines destruction.r...

https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=bW ... edir_esc=y
it say here the range is about 2 km though


It depends on the type of laser, the sort of burst you are looking at etc. The ADAM also manages 2 Km with only a 10KW fiber weapon.

Designed for short-range defense of high-value assets including forward operating bases, the ADAM system’s 10-kilowatt fiber laser is engineered to destroy targets up to 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) away.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/p ... -adam.html

The literature provides range estimations and mission estimations for different scenarios and also backs most of that up with references. Its better you search through them and check out the sources if they are provided.

This scenario - Altitude 30,000 Feet (Air to Air Engagement)

Screenshot_2015_03_31_08_48_28.png


As you can see at 30,000 Feet operating altitude a 100KW DEW provides 2x the POT at 12.5 miles than a 25KW DEW at 4 miles. There are other scenarios discussed and described as well.

I'll post the conclusion for the sake of those that may not wish to read the entire paper (s) -

It has been shown that there are many physical considerations in the employment of high energy solid-state laser systems aboard fighter-sized aircraft. However, with developing technology, none are insurmountable. The real question is whether or not such a system is worth the time and money spent to research, test and field these new technologies.

For the FA-18E/F, the likelihood of being able to field a thermally-managed, adequately-powered 100 kW laser system is low. And, while a 50 kW system appears (via HELEEOS simulation) to be an adequate air-to-air offensive and/or defensive weapon, its utility in the air-to-ground environment would be somewhat limited to the softer targets. Clearly, a 25 kW system will be inadequate in the air-to-ground environment. However, it could prove to be a decent defensive air-to-air weapon (in the SAM DEFENSE role) Diffraction effects make the power on target at ranges greater than 10 km too small to be effective, and thus it would have little tactical value in the offensive air-to-air role. The versatility of an HEL weapon makes it an attractive option for the warfighter. If a 50 kW or greater weapon could be fielded on an FA-18E/F, then it could prove to be a valuable asset. A 25 kW weapon, serving only as a defensive, close-range system, might be too much of a sacrifice of weapon stations and fuel carrying capacity for the Super Hornet.

The Joint Strike Fighter should be able to adequately power a 100 kW weapon. The question of cooling remains, although those technologies are under development. A 100 kW system is clearly versatile in both the air-to-air and air-to-ground environments, and this weapon would revolutionize the tactics of the aerial arena. Again, though, it will never be a standalone weapon. There will always be a need for explosive weapons and hard target penetrators to destroy certain targets. There will always be scenarios where the laser, no matter how powerful, will be relatively useless (e.g. bad weather), and thus there will always be a need for the conventional weaponry of the strike fighter.


Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2015, 04:25
by spazsinbad
U.S. Air Force eyes future F-35 engine and arms upgrades
07 Apr Andrea Shalal

"(Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force is on track to declare Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 fighter jet ready for initial combat use by August or September 2016, and officials are already looking at possible future upgrades to its weapons, propulsion and avionics.

Major General Jeffrey Harrigian, the two-star general named in January to oversee all things F-35 for the Air Force, told Reuters in an interview on Tuesday the program was making good progress, but he was keeping close tabs on key items required to meet the target date....

...He said the Air Force was already looking at follow-on capabilities for the F-35, given rapid technology development by potential adversaries, and ensuring that the infrastructure was in place to allow such upgrades.

"We are already considering and thinking through what are some of the technologies that will be part of the F-35," Harrigian said. "This is not the time to rest on your laurels."

Harrigian gave few details but said potential upgrades could include new avionics systems, radar, laser weapons and a new more fuel-efficient engine.

"I don't think we would take anything off the table at this point," he said."

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/ ... 4C20150407

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2015, 14:18
by bring_it_on
Apparently the Northrop Grumman DIRCM offering (Thndr) has an offensive A2A component as well.

Unlike its current DIRCM systems that provide defence against surface-to-air missiles and rockets, Northrop Grumman will for the first time include an air-to-air capability in its DIRCM offering.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2015, 14:59
by popcorn
Counter-Air would be an intriguing capability if they can pull it off, providing 360-deg. spherical coverage cued by DAS.

http://archive.defensenews.com/article/ ... ion-System

...Northrop executives describe ThNDR as a “sixth-generation” system, and the company is keeping an eye on what a seventh-gen system might look like. Smith, at least, believes that would likely involve higher-powered lasers in the “tens of kilowatts of energy.”

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2015, 15:41
by spazsinbad
Some AckaDacka THUNDER

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2015, 17:11
by neptune
popcorn wrote:..tens of kilowatts of energy[/b].”


With the integration of systems on the F-35, where could you add power generation/ batteries for a H.E. laser?

F-35 160KW 270 Vdc

...or is this more probable for the LRS-B? :)

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2015, 21:17
by Dragon029
It'd be more probably for the LRS-B, but for the F-35 you could either add an external ram-air turbine (throw it in the multi-mission pod) or upgrade the generator in the F-35; that might include doing something like adding a second one running off the accessory gearbox (especially if the F135's alternator is located axially in the engine).

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 00:35
by sersi
KamenRiderBlade wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:
eloise wrote:why would they put laser on a submarine ?


As a means to defend against UAVs, small surface vessels, aircraft, etc that are trying to track it for anti-submarine weapons / platforms. Might even be able to use it to take out glide-torpedos.


Why would the submarine ever be on the surface of the water other than at their home port?

The entire purpose of the submarine is to hide underwater and never surface unless they're at home or transferring personnel & supplies.


It doesn't have necessarily have to surface; google Blue-green lasers + submarines. The navy's been studying blue-green lasers for use as submarine sensors, comm systems, and weapons for decades. Essentially, as a sensor its an underwater ladar, with much faster propagation speed than sonar, and potentially better resolution. They've studied and tested airborne Blue-green lasers for: ASW, Comms, and mine detection that can penetrate to more than periscope depth from an aircraft. So I wouldn't expect the reverse to be a much of a problem.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 14:12
by bring_it_on
The plans on how to power any DEW (DIRCM or otherwise) and how to cool them have been shared in the articles cited in the first post in this topic. Also do note, that a couple of the ways were directly suggested to the author by the Lockheed project head working on DEWs.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 17:13
by neptune
bring_it_on wrote:The plans on how to power any DEW...


...not your problem, the sites are blocked to me, at this time...

...so.....can 150KW power an a/c HEL, etc. ??? ....yes or no.....inquiring minds want to know?? :)


...if yes, will it fit (dimensionally) within the existing stealthy gun pod??


... to others...., is there "..room.." to add an additional starter/ generator (160KW) to the F-135 inside the F-35..?????

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 17:33
by vilters
If the laser is in a pod, it can be run by a RAT, or a JFS alike.
Plenty of options.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 19:30
by bring_it_on
..so.....can 150KW power an a/c HEL, etc. ??? ....yes or no.....inquiring minds want to know??


No. The requirements for a 100KW output HEL, would be 1.2 MW. Lockheed has an internal plan on how to generate that power using the space within the lift-fan and the shaft. Smaller DEW's, and DIRCMS with 10-20KW power requirements would require less overall power. Pure defensive DIRCM's already operate on helos and other aircraft.

From the Hausmann Paper

As indicated earlier (Table 2), the JSF HEL will require approximately 1.2 MW of power to operate and cool, divided between the HEL itself ( ~771 kW ) and the thermal management system ( ~200 kW ). It is important to remember that this assumes a SSL wall-plug efficiency of 10%. AFRL/DE recently reported commercial fiber SSL wall-plug efficiency of 30%, with expectations that 40% could be achieved in the future.26 SSL efficiency improvement would result in a marked reduction in both power generation and thermal management requirements.

Thermal management will be covered in detail in Chapter 5. The question at hand is whether this power generation requirement can be met with current or projected power generation technology within the volume allocated in the LSF airframe. To meet the power generation requirements for tomorrow’s directed energy weapons, AFRL’s Propulsion Directorate is actively investigating the technologies needed to manufacture lightweight, high power generators and energy storage media.

Power Generation Proposals

The Joint Strike Fighter has a unique design feature that will simplify the power generation problem. The existing design for the Short TakeOff Vertical Land (STOVL) version of the JSF already has a mechanical shaft coming off the engine to power the lift fan. The LSF would use the lift fan shaft to rotate the generator(s) powering the HEL.28 With approximately 27,000 shaft horsepower of mechanical power available from the lift fan shaft, potential limitations with power generation will reside with the generators themselves.

Generators exist today that are capable of producing the power required by the HEL; the problem is the weight of those generators. The LSF weight budget for the HEL generator is ~145 lbs. Presently, 1 MW class generators weigh around 1000 lbs, almost an order of magnitude higher weight than currently allocated for the LSF.30 Powering a SSL will require development of lighter weight power generation technologies and careful assessments of the tradeoffs between power production capacity, weight, volume, and longevity in order to optimize the power generation system. AFRL/PRP has spent several years developing a lightweight, low duty cycle generator, and will soon be testing a 1 MW class generator that weighs approximately 200 lbs, close to the target weight for the LSF project.

The first set of issues to consider are power production capacity, weight, and volume. Then LSF SSL will have a duty cycle32 under 100% because of thermal management issues. That means the power generation system does not need to be capable of continuously delivering the power required to operate the laser. A smaller generator could be employed, coupled with batteries and/or capacitors. The generator(s), batteries, and/or capacitors would operate the laser, then the generator would recharge the energy storage system during the laser down times. This concept has the advantage of requiring a smaller generator, albeit at the expense of the weight and volume of an energy storage system.33 There is currently widespread government and industry interest in developing smaller and more efficient energy storage systems. Some examples of this interest include the auto industries pursuit of all electric or hybrid electric-gas vehicles, as well as the US Navy’s all-electric ship program. The combination of industry and government interest should ensure adequate research funding for this technology challenge.

The other key issue is longevity. More precisely, one challenge with reducing the weight of a generator while still producing the same power output is maintaining or increasing the amount of time the generator will function before it fails. Lockheed Martin engineers feel they could obtain generators capable of providing the required power while still fitting within the weight and volume allocation for the LSF today. Using existing generator technology to obtain higher power output would adversely impact generator longevity.



if yes, will it fit (dimensionally) within the existing stealthy gun pod??


They never proposed to mount a laser on the F-35 gun pod. A podded laser solution that is significantly less than that of the F-35's 100KW optimum solution has been presented in the academic paper. That takes it to 40KW output power, fitted into a self-contained pod for the Super Hornet. ATGI already markets their HIRAT as something that can support DEW's.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 20:09
by strykerxo

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2015, 23:41
by popcorn
It's to be expected that any specifics remain vague for a purpose. HELLADS technology is going to reduce space and weight requirements by a factor of 10 to facilitate integration into tactical platforms. Same goes for power management, cooling, use of adaptive optics, etc. all secret squirrel stuff.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 19:53
by bring_it_on
Tactical Laser Weapon Module Can Laserify Almost Anything



http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aero ... t-anything

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2015, 21:20
by popcorn
It‘s all starting to come together. The General Atomics team appear to have exceeded the DARPA‘s original HELLADS design objectives ie. 150kW output in a 3cu.M volume weighing 750kg. Once Boeing's beam control system is bolted on to the front end, this is going to be one serious piece of kit.


http://www.naval-technology.com/news/ne ... vy-4515515

Boeing to build precision laser system for US Navy
19 February 2015

The US Navy has awarded a contract to Boeing to design and develop a beam control system to improve accuracy for laser weapons integrated on navy vessels.
As part of the $29.5m agreement, Boeing will design a solid-state, laser technology-based high-power beam control subsystem prototype that is compatible with high-energy lasers (HEL).
Boeing said it will be attuned with systems being designed by other companies for the Office of Naval Research's (ONR) solid-state laser technology maturation programme.
"Boeing innovations in beam control and directed-energy technologies are keys to understanding laser weapon system configurations."
Capitalising on the company's work with the US Army's high-energy laser mobile demonstrator (HEL MD), the beam control system will mainly focus and hold a laser on a moving aim-point that is at a distance sufficient to immobilise the target.
Boeing Directed Energy and Strategic Systems vice-president Peggy Morse said: "Boeing innovations in beam control and directed-energy technologies are keys to understanding laser weapon system configurations that could yield a capability for the navy in their maritime environment."
Last year, Boeing demonstrated the HEL MD system at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, US. It acquired, tracked and destroyed targets in windy and foggy conditions.
In addition, vital technical statistics were accumulated on energy systems within a maritime environment and then shared by the ONR with the army and Boeing.
HEL MD successfully disabled mortars and unmanned aerial vehicles during recent testing.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 05:30
by taog
Who can read this article(i'm not the member) , and do me a favor to post the context ....


http://aviationweek.com/technology/gene ... -now-ready
General Atomics: Third-Gen Electric Laser Weapon Now Ready
Apr 20, 2015

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 06:22
by Dragon029
Essentially General Atomics have come out with a new laser system:

- It's less than 2 or 3m^3 and contains a laser module, liquid cooling and batteries. It does not include a beam director. (As a ballpark / estimate, it's probably 3.0 x 0.8 x 0.8m)

- Stock standard, it operates at 75kW laser output, but by adding a second lasing module, it can be boosted to 150kW without increasing it's size (75kW is just a sort of 'sweet spot' when it comes to power and 'magazine' size). In the image attached, the green boxes are batteries, the the system next to it is the liquid cooling and in the black part beyond, there is a space with only half of it filled, with one of the lasing modules, at the end is something else, probably avionics.

- It runs off lithium-ion battery packs, allowing for at least 30 seconds of firing with the 75kW version. The batteries can be recharged in-flight by the aircraft's generators.

- Unlike previous systems, it doesn't use fiber lasers. They believe they're where fiber lasers will be in 5 years with their ??? diode technology. They believe that due to this level of maturity, their system is affordable today (no price is mentioned, but it's small enough that it shouldn't cost that much).

- General Atomics intends to use a 150kW version of this laser as the Predator-C Avenger's armament (if one is ever sold).

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 06:47
by taog
Dragon029 wrote:Essentially General Atomics have come out with a new laser system:

- It's less than 2 or 3m^3 and contains a laser module, liquid cooling and batteries. It does not include a beam director. (As a ballpark / estimate, it's probably 3.0 x 0.8 x 0.8m)

- Stock standard, it operates at 75kW laser output, but by adding a second lasing module, it can be boosted to 150kW without increasing it's size (75kW is just a sort of 'sweet spot' when it comes to power and 'magazine' size). In the image attached, the green boxes are batteries, the the system next to it is the liquid cooling and in the black part beyond, there is a space with only half of it filled, with one of the lasing modules, at the end is something else, probably avionics.

- It runs off lithium-ion battery packs, allowing for at least 30 seconds of firing with the 75kW version. The batteries can be recharged in-flight by the aircraft's generators.

- Unlike previous systems, it doesn't use fiber lasers. They believe they're where fiber lasers will be in 5 years with their ??? diode technology. They believe that due to this level of maturity, their system is affordable today (no price is mentioned, but it's small enough that it shouldn't cost that much).

- General Atomics intends to use a 150kW version of this laser as the Predator-C Avenger's armament (if one is ever sold).


"- Stock standard, it operates at 75kW laser output, but by adding a second lasing module, it can be boosted to 150kW without increasing it's size (75kW is just a sort of 'sweet spot' when it comes to power and 'magazine' size). In the image attached, the green boxes are batteries, the the system next to it is the liquid cooling and in the black part beyond, there is a space with only half of it filled, with one of the lasing modules, at the end is something else, probably avionics.

- It runs off lithium-ion battery packs, allowing for at least 30 seconds of firing with the 75kW version. The batteries can be recharged in-flight by the aircraft's generators."




where these information details come from...?

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 06:55
by Dragon029
taog wrote:
where these information details come from...?


"- Stock standard, it operates at 75kW laser output, but by adding a second lasing module, it can be boosted to 150kW without increasing it's size (75kW is just a sort of 'sweet spot' when it comes to power and 'magazine' size). In the image attached, the green boxes are batteries, the the system next to it is the liquid cooling and in the black part beyond, there is a space with only half of it filled, with one of the lasing modules, at the end is something else, probably avionics.


The size is from another article (they stated 2 cubic meters but that might be a bit low)) and an estimate comparing it's size to the humans nearby in photos. The identification of components is just intuitive based on what the image shows (the black section with the laser modules is labelled in the image subtitle, the system with red and blue piping is obviously the cooling system, the green segment would have to be the batteries due to their volume requirement).

- It runs off lithium-ion battery packs, allowing for at least 30 seconds of firing with the 75kW version. The batteries can be recharged in-flight by the aircraft's generators."


Excerpts from the article:

"The module includes high-power-density lithium-ion batteries, liquid cooling for the laser and batteries, one or more laser unit cells and optics to clean up and stabilize the beam before it enters the platform-specific beam-director telescope, says Davis."

"The unit cell is a laser oscillator that produces a single 75-kw beam. Modules can be ganged together to produce a 150- or 300-kw beam. There is no beam-combining, Davis says, as there is in systems that use multiple lower-power fiber lasers."

Image
"Mockup shows one 75-kw laser unit cell (gold), although the tactical module has room for two, for a 150-kw laser weapon."

""In the independent unit-cell tests, beam quality was measured over a range of operating power and run time, which is limited only by the “magazine depth” of the battery system. “Beam quality was constant throughout the entire run of greater than 30 sec.,” says GA-ASI."

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 07:08
by taog
Dragon029 wrote:
taog wrote:
where these information details come from...?


"- Stock standard, it operates at 75kW laser output, but by adding a second lasing module, it can be boosted to 150kW without increasing it's size (75kW is just a sort of 'sweet spot' when it comes to power and 'magazine' size). In the image attached, the green boxes are batteries, the the system next to it is the liquid cooling and in the black part beyond, there is a space with only half of it filled, with one of the lasing modules, at the end is something else, probably avionics.


The size is from another article (they stated 2 cubic meters but that might be a bit low)) and an estimate comparing it's size to the humans nearby in photos. The identification of components is just intuitive based on what the image shows (the black section with the laser modules is labelled in the image subtitle, the system with red and blue piping is obviously the cooling system, the green segment would have to be the batteries due to their volume requirement).

- It runs off lithium-ion battery packs, allowing for at least 30 seconds of firing with the 75kW version. The batteries can be recharged in-flight by the aircraft's generators."


Excerpts from the article:

"The module includes high-power-density lithium-ion batteries, liquid cooling for the laser and batteries, one or more laser unit cells and optics to clean up and stabilize the beam before it enters the platform-specific beam-director telescope, says Davis."

"The unit cell is a laser oscillator that produces a single 75-kw beam. Modules can be ganged together to produce a 150- or 300-kw beam. There is no beam-combining, Davis says, as there is in systems that use multiple lower-power fiber lasers."

Image
"Mockup shows one 75-kw laser unit cell (gold), although the tactical module has room for two, for a 150-kw laser weapon."

""In the independent unit-cell tests, beam quality was measured over a range of operating power and run time, which is limited only by the “magazine depth” of the battery system. “Beam quality was constant throughout the entire run of greater than 30 sec.,” says GA-ASI."


can you give me or post the whole article that you mention...("Excerpts from the article....")?plz and thx , Orz .


btw , i just read :"You don't even need to connect the module to an outside power source; it’s packed with enough lithium-ion batteries to give you some number of shots (although, as with almost every question we asked, General Atomics won’t give us specific numbers, because it’s, well, classified)." from this article(http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aerospace/military/tactical-laser-weapon-module-can-laserify-almost-anything), so i am interesting in whether it can be recharge by aircraft's generators....?

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 07:19
by Dragon029
General Atomics: Third-Gen Electric Laser Weapon Now Ready
Apr 20, 2015 Graham Warwick Aviation Week & Space Technology

While fashions in high-energy lasers have changed as technology progresses, from gas to diode and now fiber, General Atomics Aeronautical Systems (GA-ASI) has stayed its course over more than a decade and believes its third generation of electric laser weapon is ready for prime time.

The company has responded to an Office of Naval Research (ONR) solicitation for a 150-kw laser weapon suitable for installation on DDG-51-class destroyers to counter unmanned aircraft and small boats using only ship power and cooling.

Under ONR’s Solid-State Laser Technology Maturation program, the weapon is to be demonstrated in 2018 on the USS Paul Foster, a decommissioned Spruance-class destroyer that now serves as the U.S. Navy’s ship-defense test vessel at Port Hueneme in California.

GA-ASI has proposed its Gen 3 High-Energy Laser (HEL) system, which recently completed independent beam-quality and power testing for the U.S. government. The Gen 3 system is the third generation of electrically pumped laser using the architecture developed for Darpa’s Hellads program.

Image
General Atomics’ third-generation tactical laser weapon module is sized to be carried on its Avenger unmanned aircraft. Credit: Graham Warwick/AW&ST

Under development since 2003, the 150-kw Hellads will be tested this summer at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. A smaller, lighter and more efficient Gen 2 system was built and tested in 2010-12 for the Pentagon’s HEL Joint Technology Office (JTO), says Jim Davis, director of laser weapons.

Gen 3 has increased electrical-to-optical efficiency, improved beam quality and further reduced size and weight, says GA-ASI. A mockup of the Tactical Laser Weapon Module was displayed for the first time at the Sea-Air-Space show on April 13-15 in Washington.

The module includes high-power-density lithium-ion batteries, liquid cooling for the laser and batteries, one or more laser unit cells and optics to clean up and stabilize the beam before it enters the platform-specific beam-director telescope, says Davis.

The unit cell is a laser oscillator that produces a single 75-kw beam. Modules can be ganged together to produce a 150- or 300-kw beam. There is no beam-combining, Davis says, as there is in systems that use multiple lower-power fiber lasers.

The Pentagon and several other manufacturers have shifted focus to fiber lasers because they are a commercial technology and have higher electrical-to-optical “wallplug” efficiency than diode lasers previously demonstrated at power levels exceeding 100 kw.

Image
Mockup shows one 75-kw laser unit cell (gold), although the tactical module has room for two, for a 150-kw laser weapon. Credit: Graham Warwick/AW&ST

But the Gen 3’s efficiency is at the level of fiber lasers, Davis says, adding that the company has worked for several years to improve beam quality and achieved “excellent quality” in the latest tests. Adaptive optics adjust the beam to compensate for atmospheric distortion.

In the independent unit-cell tests, beam quality was measured over a range of operating power and run time, which is limited only by the “magazine depth” of the battery system. “Beam quality was constant throughout the entire run of greater than 30 sec.,” says GA-ASI.

“Fiber lasers are interesting, but it is a matter of maturity,” says Davis. “We are where fiber may be in five years. We have built several versions of this laser over the last 10 years, and we believe [the Gen 3 system] is affordable as is.”

In addition to the ONR program, GA-ASI is eyeing the U.S. Army’s Boeing High Energy Laser Mobile Demonstrator (HEL MD). Live-fire tests of the HEL MD used a 10-kw industrial fiber laser and the Army intends to upgrade the system to a 60-kw Lockheed Martin fiber laser.

The next step is a 120-kw laser, planned for testing in the early 2020s, and for which GA-ASI plans to propose the Gen 3 system. The Air Force Research Laboratory, meanwhile, is interested in a podded laser weapon, although there is no formal program yet.

Davis says the Gen 3’s size enables an airborne laser module in the 150-kw range to be carried by GA-ASI’s Avenger unmanned aircraft. The UAV has sufficient onboard power to recharge the module’s batteries in flight. “That’s the utility; you don’t need to go back to reload,” Davis says.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 08:53
by taog
Dragon029 wrote:
General Atomics: Third-Gen Electric Laser Weapon Now Ready
Apr 20, 2015 Graham Warwick Aviation Week & Space Technology

While fashions in high-energy lasers have changed as technology progresses, from gas to diode and now fiber, General Atomics Aeronautical Systems (GA-ASI) has stayed its course over more than a decade and believes its third generation of electric laser weapon is ready for prime time.

The company has responded to an Office of Naval Research (ONR) solicitation for a 150-kw laser weapon suitable for installation on DDG-51-class destroyers to counter unmanned aircraft and small boats using only ship power and cooling.

Under ONR’s Solid-State Laser Technology Maturation program, the weapon is to be demonstrated in 2018 on the USS Paul Foster, a decommissioned Spruance-class destroyer that now serves as the U.S. Navy’s ship-defense test vessel at Port Hueneme in California.

GA-ASI has proposed its Gen 3 High-Energy Laser (HEL) system, which recently completed independent beam-quality and power testing for the U.S. government. The Gen 3 system is the third generation of electrically pumped laser using the architecture developed for Darpa’s Hellads program.

Image
General Atomics’ third-generation tactical laser weapon module is sized to be carried on its Avenger unmanned aircraft. Credit: Graham Warwick/AW&ST

Under development since 2003, the 150-kw Hellads will be tested this summer at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. A smaller, lighter and more efficient Gen 2 system was built and tested in 2010-12 for the Pentagon’s HEL Joint Technology Office (JTO), says Jim Davis, director of laser weapons.

Gen 3 has increased electrical-to-optical efficiency, improved beam quality and further reduced size and weight, says GA-ASI. A mockup of the Tactical Laser Weapon Module was displayed for the first time at the Sea-Air-Space show on April 13-15 in Washington.

The module includes high-power-density lithium-ion batteries, liquid cooling for the laser and batteries, one or more laser unit cells and optics to clean up and stabilize the beam before it enters the platform-specific beam-director telescope, says Davis.

The unit cell is a laser oscillator that produces a single 75-kw beam. Modules can be ganged together to produce a 150- or 300-kw beam. There is no beam-combining, Davis says, as there is in systems that use multiple lower-power fiber lasers.

The Pentagon and several other manufacturers have shifted focus to fiber lasers because they are a commercial technology and have higher electrical-to-optical “wallplug” efficiency than diode lasers previously demonstrated at power levels exceeding 100 kw.

Image
Mockup shows one 75-kw laser unit cell (gold), although the tactical module has room for two, for a 150-kw laser weapon. Credit: Graham Warwick/AW&ST

But the Gen 3’s efficiency is at the level of fiber lasers, Davis says, adding that the company has worked for several years to improve beam quality and achieved “excellent quality” in the latest tests. Adaptive optics adjust the beam to compensate for atmospheric distortion.

In the independent unit-cell tests, beam quality was measured over a range of operating power and run time, which is limited only by the “magazine depth” of the battery system. “Beam quality was constant throughout the entire run of greater than 30 sec.,” says GA-ASI.

“Fiber lasers are interesting, but it is a matter of maturity,” says Davis. “We are where fiber may be in five years. We have built several versions of this laser over the last 10 years, and we believe [the Gen 3 system] is affordable as is.”

In addition to the ONR program, GA-ASI is eyeing the U.S. Army’s Boeing High Energy Laser Mobile Demonstrator (HEL MD). Live-fire tests of the HEL MD used a 10-kw industrial fiber laser and the Army intends to upgrade the system to a 60-kw Lockheed Martin fiber laser.

The next step is a 120-kw laser, planned for testing in the early 2020s, and for which GA-ASI plans to propose the Gen 3 system. The Air Force Research Laboratory, meanwhile, is interested in a podded laser weapon, although there is no formal program yet.

Davis says the Gen 3’s size enables an airborne laser module in the 150-kw range to be carried by GA-ASI’s Avenger unmanned aircraft. The UAV has sufficient onboard power to recharge the module’s batteries in flight. “That’s the utility; you don’t need to go back to reload,” Davis says.


wow,thx a lot

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 09:49
by popcorn
They‘re reporting encouraging progress in Aluminum-ion battery technology.


http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plu ... n-battery/

The aluminum-ion battery’s fast charging and discharging times give it a decisive advantage over conventional lithium-ion batteries. On a mass basis, a hypothetical one-kilogram aluminum-ion battery could produce approximately 3,000 watts of power—enough to power about two to three typical residential homes, albeit for only a minute or less. On the other hand, a typical one-kilogram lithium-ion battery could only produce about 200-300 watts of power—about a tenth the power capacity of Stanford’s aluminum-ion battery..The Stanford researchers tested how long their battery lasts under different conditions by charging it at a fast one-minute rate, and then discharging it at the same one-minute rate thousands of times over. Across over 7,500 of these fast charge-discharge cycles, the researchers observed essentially no fade in the battery’s capacity.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 10:02
by popcorn
That Gen 3 laser module occupies .26 cuM based on this article.
http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/ ... n-20042920
The recently certified Gen 3 laser assembly is very compact at only 1.3 x 0.4 x 0.5 meters. The system is powered by a compact Lithium-ion battery supply designed to demonstrate a deployable architecture for tactical platforms.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2015, 13:27
by Dragon029
popcorn wrote:That Gen 3 laser module occupies .26 cuM based on this article.
http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/ ... n-20042920
The recently certified Gen 3 laser assembly is very compact at only 1.3 x 0.4 x 0.5 meters. The system is powered by a compact Lithium-ion battery supply designed to demonstrate a deployable architecture for tactical platforms.


I think they're referring to the actual lasing section of the module (the black frame area where 1 or 2 lasing systems go), not the entire pod / system. If you look at this picture for example:

Image

There's a person standing about 2 or 3 feet away and it appears as if the width of the system is about 2.5 feet, while the height of the lower trusses appear to perhaps be 1 foot height and the length of the system is perhaps 10-12 feet.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2015, 10:49
by popcorn
Dragon029 wrote:
popcorn wrote:That Gen 3 laser module occupies .26 cuM based on this article.
http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/ ... n-20042920
The recently certified Gen 3 laser assembly is very compact at only 1.3 x 0.4 x 0.5 meters. The system is powered by a compact Lithium-ion battery supply designed to demonstrate a deployable architecture for tactical platforms.


I think they're referring to the actual lasing section of the module (the black frame area where 1 or 2 lasing systems go), not the entire pod / system. If you look at this picture for example:

Image

There's a person standing about 2 or 3 feet away and it appears as if the width of the system is about 2.5 feet, while the height of the lower trusses appear to perhaps be 1 foot height and the length of the system is perhaps 10-12 feet.

Point noted... so likely closer to 3 X .26cuM = .78cuM

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2015, 11:07
by spazsinbad
The post over the page kindly provided by 'taog' is now free to the pubicks here - AvWeak are such teezers (said the firecat): http://aviationweek.com/technology/gene ... -now-ready

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2015, 10:14
by spazsinbad
LONG article - best read at source.
Laser Planes: Air Force Fighter To Fire 100 kW By 2022
18 May 2015 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"PENTAGON: By 2022, the US Air Force wants to fire a 100-plus-kilowatt laser from an airplane. And not just any airplane, Air Force Research Laboratory officials made clear on Thursday. In stark contrast to the megawatt Airborne Laser cancelled in 2011, which filled a converted 747, the 2022 demonstration will be fired from a fighter.

Star Wars fans, calm down: This isn’t a real-world X-Wing. It probably won’t even be an F-35A, the planned mainstay of the future Air Force, because that’s a stealth aircraft that carries its weapons internally to reduce its profile on radar, while the 2022 weapon will be built into an external weapons pod....

...A typical modern fighter like the F-16 can carry at most six air-to-air missiles. Shoot six times, hit or miss, and it’s back to base to re-arm. By contrast, said Gunzinger, a laser-armed aircraft could just head back to the tanker. “Instead of landing to reload, air refueling would ‘reload’ [laser]-equipped aircraft in flight,” he said. They could keep fighting until the pilot couldn’t take it any more — or, if unmanned, for longer than any human could endure.

“There are several developmental lasers, including HELLADS, that are making great progress” towards making a weapon compact enough for an aircraft, Gunzinger told me. “Aircraft-based laser weapons could be a near-term reality.”...

...From space, from the air, or from the surface, lasers have genuinely revolutionary potential. “The term game changing is thrown around pretty loosely,” Deptula said, but here it fits. “Since Chuck Yeager first broke the sound barrier, in the late forties, we’ve been engaging at the speed of sound,” he told me. Now the US, Russia, and China are all developing hypersonic weapons that can travel at Mach 5 or more. But with lasers, he said, “now you’re talking about engaging at the speed of light.”"

Photo/Artwork: "Air Force artwork of a future dogfight with lasers." http://breakingdefense.com/wp-content/u ... 00-001.jpg


Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/05/lase ... s-by-2022/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2015, 17:36
by taog
spazsinbad wrote:LONG article - best read at source.
Laser Planes: Air Force Fighter To Fire 100 kW By 2022
18 May 2015 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"PENTAGON: By 2022, the US Air Force wants to fire a 100-plus-kilowatt laser from an airplane. And not just any airplane, Air Force Research Laboratory officials made clear on Thursday. In stark contrast to the megawatt Airborne Laser cancelled in 2011, which filled a converted 747, the 2022 demonstration will be fired from a fighter.

Star Wars fans, calm down: This isn’t a real-world X-Wing. It probably won’t even be an F-35A, the planned mainstay of the future Air Force, because that’s a stealth aircraft that carries its weapons internally to reduce its profile on radar, while the 2022 weapon will be built into an external weapons pod....

...A typical modern fighter like the F-16 can carry at most six air-to-air missiles. Shoot six times, hit or miss, and it’s back to base to re-arm. By contrast, said Gunzinger, a laser-armed aircraft could just head back to the tanker. “Instead of landing to reload, air refueling would ‘reload’ [laser]-equipped aircraft in flight,” he said. They could keep fighting until the pilot couldn’t take it any more — or, if unmanned, for longer than any human could endure.

“There are several developmental lasers, including HELLADS, that are making great progress” towards making a weapon compact enough for an aircraft, Gunzinger told me. “Aircraft-based laser weapons could be a near-term reality.”...

...From space, from the air, or from the surface, lasers have genuinely revolutionary potential. “The term game changing is thrown around pretty loosely,” Deptula said, but here it fits. “Since Chuck Yeager first broke the sound barrier, in the late forties, we’ve been engaging at the speed of sound,” he told me. Now the US, Russia, and China are all developing hypersonic weapons that can travel at Mach 5 or more. But with lasers, he said, “now you’re talking about engaging at the speed of light.”"

Photo/Artwork: "Air Force artwork of a future dogfight with lasers." http://breakingdefense.com/wp-content/u ... 00-001.jpg


Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/05/lase ... s-by-2022/


General Atomics Claims Laser Weapon Advance

Aviation Week & Space Technology , Feb 16, 2015 , Bill Sweetman

General Atomics (GA) has completed laboratory tests of what it calls its “third-generation laser system,” saying that the weapon sets new standards in efficiency, beam quality and system weight. According to an industry source, the company says the new laser will deliver 150 kw of energy, with three times higher beam quality than the Laser Weapon System (LaWS) now being tested by the U.S. Navy on the amphibious warfare ship Ponce, and will be able to fire 10 shots between 3-min.-long -recharges.

Moreover, the laser is being designed as part of a 3,000-lb. self-contained package that can be installed in the weapon/payload bay of the company’s Avenger turbofan-powered unmanned air vehicle. The same industry source suggests that GA’s technology is mature enough to fly on an Avenger within 18 months, given adequate funding.

According to analyst Mark Gunzinger of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments (CSBA), a 150-kw laser “with decent beam quality” would be a step above previous electrically powered laser weapons, which have demonstrated the ability to engage targets such as mortar rounds and small unmanned air vehicles. The new weapon could be “effective against air-to-air missiles, and against cruise missiles using a crossing shot,” he surmises.

The new system—not yet formally named—has evolved from government-funded programs and is being developed with a mix of government and company money, according to Mike Perry, GA’s vice-president for laser and electro-optic systems. These programs include the High-Energy Liquid Laser Area Defense System (Hellads), still underway with the support of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, and the Army-sponsored Robust Electric Laser Initiative (Reli). GA’s Reli work was completed in 2013.

The latest Hellads demonstrator, a 150-kw weapon, is ready for delivery to Darpa, Perry says. It is due to be tested at White Sands (New Mexico) Missile Range, and by the end of the current fiscal year—the last in which work is funded—it should be moved to a mountaintop site to emulate airborne missions, including targeting of ground vehicles and aircraft self-defense.

The “third-generation” laser is more refined than Hellads, Perry says, although it uses technologies that have been integrated into the latest Hellads demonstrator. While not confirming specific figures, Perry says the beam quality—a measure of how tightly the beam is focused—is “the highest ever achieved on an electrically pumped laser” and that its power output is comparable to the 150-kW Hellads. However, the Hellads name is not being used for the new system, which employs a different lasing medium. Perry declines to say whether or not it is a liquid medium.

He says the system’s space, weight and power requirements are sized to the Avenger. GA has noted that the UAV has a 3,500-lb. payload and 20 kw of power available. This was not the initial target of the program, Perry says, but the UAV and laser programs were evolving in parallel. “The Avenger was a challenge, but if we could size it for the Avenger all other platforms would be easier.”

The engineering that remains to be done before the system can fly is “not in the laser,” Perry says, but in the platform integration and design of a beam director and a target acquisition system. GA, he believes, is “substantially ahead” of competitors using fiber lasers, partly because of experience gained in the Hellads program. Another industry source points out that an airborne laser is “a system of systems” including power conditioning and storage, cooling and optics as well as laser modules, and that these may be areas where GA has moved ahead of its rivals, in part because of in-house expertise with high-energy storage systems.

The timescale for future developments will depend on budgets, Perry says. The next step would be to ground-test a complete system, followed by integration into an aircraft. “We see the Avenger as the next step, but others see other platforms coming first. It will be determined by the customer.” The special-operations community, for example, has proposed several different approaches to develop for a pallet-mounted laser that could be installed on a C-130.

The U.S. Missile Defense Agency, meanwhile, is pushing UAV-borne lasers for target discrimination as an interim step toward the much higher-power levels needed for interception. The MDA is requesting $285.8 million in fiscal 2016-20 for “weapons technology,” according to budget documents, and the aim is to “build the foundation for the next-generation UAV-borne laser system, capable of tracking and eventually destroying the enemy at a much lower cost than the existing missile defense system.” Of that, about $45 million is expected in fiscal 2016.

MDA Director Vice Adm. James Syring was tight-lipped about the work during a Feb. 2 briefing. “At the power levels we’re talking about today, forward discrimination and tracking in the near term” are possible missions, he said. “Due to the classification level, I’d just like to leave it at that for today.”

A December 2014 report by the Congressional Research Service summarizes estimates of the effectiveness of different laser power levels against different target classes, as published by a number of sources over the past 10 years. Most agree that guided missiles start to become vulnerable as power exceeds 100 kw if the beam quality remains high. One important issue is that the power of the laser is only one element of its “target fluence,” which according to Gunzinger’s 2012 report for the CSBA is defined as the amount of energy that a laser device can concentrate on a desired spot on a target over a specific distance. Fluence is affected by beam quality, jitter and atmospheric absorption and scattering.

The effectiveness of a laser weapon will also depend on the hardness of the target and the kill mechanism. For instance, a missile aimed at an aircraft could be defeated at close range and short time-to-impact if its radome (already under thermal and aerodynamic stress) is destroyed, as postulated in a number of research papers. That damage would both destroy the missile’s seeker and destabilize it aerodynamically, and a relatively small miss distance is needed to prevent damage to the aircraft. Defending a ship against an anti-ship cruise missile may mean more power and range to ensure that missile fragments and fuel do not hit the ship. Says the CSBA’s Gunzinger: The earlier Hellads is believed to use liquid-cooled slab laser modules.

──────────────────────────

"...The “third-generation” laser is more refined than Hellads ..."
- General Atomics engineers say that they’ve gotten it down to just 4 kilograms per kilowatt.(Hellads is 5kg/kw)
(http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aero ... t-anything)

And AFRL 2014 PDF:
Image

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2015, 22:49
by Dragon029
Do you have a link to the source PDF? I wouldn't mind seeing what else is talked about.

Edit: Found it.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2015, 20:38
by spazsinbad
USAF holding old gunships for laser demos
28 Jul 2015 James Drew

"...He says the air force is looking for airborne lasers for integration into a standard pod or conformal tank for laser demonstrations. “It’s past the time to test these in the labs; we need it in the field,” he says.

Harris says laser weapons probably won’t find their way onto the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter any time soon, but might be integrated in the future beyond the Block 4 rollout, which is due to add new capabilities to the fifth-generation jet from 2019 to 2025."

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... os-415101/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2015, 14:22
by bring_it_on
Kendall: Energy Weapons Ideal, But Not Ready For Tactical Air Defense
Defense Daily


Directed energy weapons would be ideal for countering many of the anti-access, area-denial threats that peer nations pose to the United States in wartime, but technology has not progressed to the point where those weapons are operationally useful, the Pentagon's chief weapons buyer said Tuesday.

Since the U.S. military in 1991 demonstrated the capability of its precision munitions during the first Gulf War, potential competitors like China, Russia and Iran have invested in similar systems, Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics (AT&L) Frank Kendall said at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments (CSBA) and Booz Allen Hamilton [BAH] Directed Energy Summit outside Washington.
"The problems that we are facing are the very problems that directed energy systems have been envisioned as addressing for a long, long time," Kendall said. "In particular, precision missiles, cruise and ballistic."
Sophisticated ballistic and cruise missiles have become less expensive and have, therefore, proliferated to less advanced countries and non-state actors. That proliferation makes U.S. ships and ground forces vulnerable to attack and defending against missiles with terminal guidance using missile interceptors is prohibitively expensive, he said.
"What China is buying, or well on their way to buying, is a suite of capabilities designed to keep us out of their part of the world," Kendall said. That includes anti-ship missiles that would keep U.S. amphibious assault vessels too far offshore to launch Marines or aircraft carriers to launch air strikes in the event of a forced invasion, hence 'anti-access, area denial.'
"Air defenses are something we haven't focused on in recent years, because we tend to control the air," he said. In 1991, the U.S. was safely atop the technological heap with its monopoly on precision munitions technology. The world of missile technology is now much more level, Kendall said.
Instead of buying "fairly low numbers of very expensive things" that gave the U.S a decisive technological advantage in past conflicts, "the idea now is to buy fairly large number of inexpensive things and use them in a different way," Kendall said.
Whereas conventional anti-missile interceptors can cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars apiece, a single shot from the laser weapons system (LaWS) cost about a dollar. Laser weapons also let commanders dial up or down the intensity of the shot to deal with threats of varying lethality, giving them the ability to "deter, disable or destroy," a target with a single system.

There are major technological hurdles that need to be overcome before lasers or high-powered microwave weapons are able to destroy an incoming missile in flight, however. The main challenges involve the size, weight and power requirements for current systems.
The Navy is 2012 mounted a prototype laser on a destroyer and demonstrated the ability to shoot down a "soft drone" - one without weapons or countermeasures - during an exercise on a clear, cloudless day. Last year, LaWS, a similar system, was made operational and deployed aboard the USS Ponce afloat forward staging base in the Arabian Gulf.
Scaling the system up to a higher intensity could flip the cost-of-defense paradigm of defending against relatively inexpensive, highly sophisticated anti-ship missiles back in favor of the US, said Navy Secretary Ray Mabus.
"From these successes, I recognized the potential utility and cost-effectiveness of directed energy weapons across the full range of military operations," Navy Secretary Ray Mabus said at the summit.
That system still requires massive equipment to provide power and cool the laser. Those subsystems, though still fairly inexpensive compared to traditional munitions, are often three to four times the size of the actual laser, said Rich Bagnell, who manages the self-protect high-energy laser demonstration at the Air Force Research Laboratory's directed energy directorate.
"I believe we have much of the technology in hand, or nearly in hand, for us to be able to handle the self-defense mission," he said. "The laser is no longer the long goal. It's power and thermal. ... We have a lot of work to do on the subsystems."
LaWS and other laser weapons in operation, like the Marine Corps' ground-based area defense laser, operate at about 30 kilowatts of energy. In order for a laser to effectively "kill" incoming missiles it needs to emit about 100-150 kilowatts, Bagnell said.
The Office of Naval Research is feeding lessons from USS Ponce into the Navy's solid state laser (SSL) technology maturation program, which is aiming to produce a 100-150 kilowatt laser prototype for at-sea testing in 2018. The Navy, in the meantime, has decided to extend the LaWS deployment indefinitely.

Because Navy ships are large and have huge turbine or nuclear powerplants, Mabus said the service is the perfect host for large directed energy prototypes.
The Navy is "best-positioned to address these obstacles right now," he said. "The size, weight, power, and cooling required by contemporary directed energy systems makes naval vessels the platform of choice for operationalizing the technology. Our ships are big enough to host large, heavy weapons, our gas turbines and nuclear reactors can provide the magnitude of power necessary to make these weapons effective and we have all the saltwater in the world and the air in its atmosphere for cooling."
Energy could also soon replace traditional explosive propellents that are heavy, take up space and are volatile aboard ship. The Navy's electromagnetic rail gun, after decades of overhyped, underdelivered promise, is nearing fruition.
"The railgun has been a long time coming," Mabus said. The service already has successfully tested a 32-joule prototype that can hurl a metal projectile with the power of 11 pounds of C4, which translates to a 23-pound projectile accelerating from 0 to 5,000 miles per hour - seven times the speed of sound - in 1/1000th of a second and can strike targets as ranges up to 100 miles.
"As a point of comparison, the Navy’s current 5-inch gun has a range of 13 miles, its rounds weigh 100 pounds, and their explosive nature makes them more precarious to store and handle," Mabus said.
In 2015, the Navy will mount a similar weapon aboard a joint high speed vessel, the USNS Trenton, to gauge its operational utility at sea. Plans are to fire 20 projectiles at targets 25 to 50 miles out.


Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2015, 18:12
by neptune
[quote="taog...: By 2022, the US Air Force wants to fire a 100-plus-kilowatt laser from an airplane. .... It probably won’t even be an F-35A, ....]while the 2022 weapon will be built into an external weapons pod[/b].......][/quote]

...where does the "extra 100+ KW" source from, not the F-135..within the stealth lines of the F-35... :?:

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2015, 18:29
by SpudmanWP
Store energy in capacitors, batteries, etc

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2015, 18:42
by bring_it_on
Some of the potential solutions for both a Pod, and an integrated DEW are provided in the pdf's on the first page of the thread. Industry has been doing some fairly substantial work when it comes to feeding power and managing the thermal footprint..

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2015, 15:24
by bring_it_on
Laser Technology Heads For Key Tests

The U.S. Army announced in February that it would hold a November come-as-you-are shoot-off—formally known as the High-Energy Laser Industry Live-Fire Technology Demonstration—at White Sands Missile Range (WSMR) in New Mexico. Prizes of $1-5 million will be awarded to qualifying participants who turn up with a mobile system (defined as usable by an Army Brigade Combat Team) and do the best against a range of targets, including UAVs and mortar rounds, under successively more challenging scenarios.

The test will follow trials of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency’s (Darpa) High-Energy Liquid Laser Area Defense System (Hellads) demonstrator, which is already at WSMR “in the throes of integration” according to a Darpa official, and should be ready to fire “within the next couple of months.”

So far, the Army has received only one response to its invitation, says Brig. Gen. Neil Thurgood, the service’s program executive officer for missiles and space. This is most likely from General Atomics, which has disclosed work on a “third-generation” laser weapon, an outgrowth of Hellads designed to deliver 150 kW with high-beam quality from a 3,000-lb. package, including power conditioning and cooling subsystems. The company says it “may participate” in the November tests.



The Army’s work is being matched by the U.S. Navy. Following the successful demonstration of a 30-kW Laser Weapon System (LaWS) on the amphibious dockship USS Ponce—initially intended as a one-year effort but now being extended through the remainder of the ship’s deployment—the Office of Naval Research (ONR) expects to issue a contract “in the very near future” for a similar at-sea demonstration of a 100-150-kW laser for 2018-19, according to Rear Adm. Bryant Fuller, deputy commander for naval engineering at Sea Systems Command.

Navy Secretary Ray Mabus adds that the service “is trying to shrink the time line” for the high-power laser project, which appears to have superseded ONR’s work on a free electron laser weapon, the budget for which was “realigned” in 2015. It will also contribute to the plan for a Marine Corps GBAD-DE On The Move demonstrator, for a weapons-power laser installed on a Humvee-sized vehicle.

The Missile Defense Agency (MDA) is sponsoring two new laser technologies that will take the output of electrically powered lasers to the next level: the diode-pumped alkali laser (DPAL) from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and the fiber-combining laser (FCL) from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s Lincoln Laboratory. Both stand at a technology readiness level (TRL) of “3-4,” says MDA chief engineer Keith Englander, “and need to be at TRL 6 for a flight demonstration,” which could take place after 2020. In 2016, Lincoln Laboratory plans to start building a new FCL, driving the weight of the system down from 5 kg/kW to 1 kg/kW, while Livermore intends to demonstrate a DPAL system at 30 kW.

MDA is looking at doing boost-phase intercepts from high-altitude unmanned platforms, Englander says, because—firing upwards from stratospheric altitudes—the system needs less power than the abortive megawatt-class Airborne Laser demonstrator. The agency sponsored the final five flight tests of Boeing’s Phantom Eye UAV, and Boeing has talked about larger versions of the aircraft with payloads of 2,000 lb. or more.




Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Aug 2015, 23:01
by spazsinbad
The now old idea of replacing the LiftFan with a laser gubbins seems to have been lost - mebbe someone will find it again. Anyway a long article best read at source.
Air Force Moves Aggressively On Lasers
07 Aug 2015 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"TYSON’S CORNER: All branches of the military really want laser weapons. But they don’t all want them for the same missions. What struck me after a recent conference here was how differently the US Air Force is approaching lasers.

The USAF is pursing a two-pronged approach: They want to mount lasers on both the large AC-130 gunship and a smaller fighter, probably the relatively roomy F-15E Strike Eagle. Neither prong leads to the kind of missile defense system that’s the holy grail for the Army and the Navy. Instead, the Air Force wants lasers, initially, to shoot down incoming anti-aircraft weapons and, ultimately, to attack both flying and ground targets.

All told, both the technical hurdles and the tactical applications for the Air Force are significantly more challenging than the other services’ laser efforts.

“They are trying to do the hardest thing first,” future warfare expert Mark Gunzinger told me.

Technically, it’s a lot easier to fit a laser weapon on a ground base, a Navy ship, or even an Army truck than in an airplane, especially one as small as a fighter, where every ounce counts and every component vibrates during flight....

...Because lasers can fire an infinite number of light-speed shots, they’re ideal for intercepting high-speed threats. The Air Force is hardly blind to their defensive value. But the Air Force perspective on defense is narrower than the Army’s or Navy’s: Rather than try to protect a ship, a base, or a fleet, the USAF focuses on self-protection of the individual aircraft carrying the laser. (Indeed, aircraft already carry low-power infra-red lasers — DIRCM and LAIRCM — that can blind some heat-seeking missiles, although not radar-guided ones). Such defenses could keep aircraft alive in the danger zones of a Chinese-style “anti-access/area denial” defense.

The Air Force also sees lasers as multi-purpose offensive/defensive weapons that can fire in a low-power mode for self-defense, then dial up to a non-lethal offensive mode — burning out sensors or engines, for example — or all the way to “kill.”...

...The Air Force, however, is focused on fighters. That’s a tighter fit than gunships or bombers, so the Air Force Research Laboratory has a relatively cautious three-phase plan, AFRL commander Maj. Gen. Thomas Masiello said at the conference:

1. A defensive system with “tens of kilowatts” of power called SHIELD, the Self-protected HIgh-Energy Laser Demonstration. It will be demonstrated circa 2020.

2. A longer-range defensive system with 100 kilowatts of power, to be demonstrated in 2022.

3. A 300-kilowatt offensive system capable of destroying enemy aircraft and ground targets at long range.

All these systems will be weapons pods or other external add-ons to existing aircraft, not “fully integrated” inside the airframe like a gun or radar, Masiello cautioned. That means radar-evading aircraft like the F-35 or F-22 couldn’t use them without sacrificing stealth. “We’re talking decades to have some sort of a 300-kw laser possibly integrated into a fighter,” he said...."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/08/air- ... on-lasers/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2015, 14:05
by popcorn
More laser stuff. Targeting missiles in boost phase when they are most vulnerable. Likely decades away though.
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/08/retu ... ser-drone/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 17:06
by taog

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 17:34
by spazsinbad

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 18:10
by bring_it_on

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2015, 18:26
by spazsinbad

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2015, 23:28
by tritonprime
"Lockheed considering laser weapon concepts for F-35"
05 October, 2015 BY: James Drew Washington DC

Source:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 35-417416/

Lockheed Martin’s F-35 has not yet seen combat, but already the defence manufacturer is exploring “concepts” for installing and employing a high-power fibre laser weapon on the new-generation combat jet for shooting down missiles and other airborne threats.

The company believes it finally has the right technology to produce modular and scalable fibre laser weapons for trucks, ships and aircraft, and a high-power, 60kW example will enter production for the US Army later this month.

The F-35 has been in development since 2001 and only recently was declared fit for combat with the US Marine Corps. However, Lockheed’s Rob Afzal says company engineers are already thinking about how a laser weapon system could fit onto the supersonic stealth fighter and its usefulness in combat.

“Absolutely, we’re looking at concepts for the integration of a laser weapon onto the F-35,” the Lockheed senior fellow for laser and sensor systems said at a media briefing 5 October.

“We’re also looking at the utility and doing models and calculations so you would understand the utility of a leaser weapon system in the F-35.”

Afzal’s comments come amid a revolution in the combining and directing of electric lasers to essentially burn rockets, missiles and unmanned aircraft out of the sky.

The US military has unlocked millions of dollars for directed energy research and development, as has Germany, Russia and China.

In particular, the US Air Force is pursing laser weapon systems for installation on supersonic fighter jets as well as the AC-130J Ghostrider gunship being built for US special forces.

Once introduced, the F-35 will remain in service for 30 to 40 years, and is a likely candidate for a fighter-based airborne laser module.

Lockheed says it would offer an airborne derivative of the system it is developing for the army, which uses spectral beam combining to channel energy from a stack of individual fibre laser modules into a “single, high-power, monolithic beam”.

The company claims laser efficiency rates as high as 40%, and says its modular design is scalable to higher power outputs with significantly more redundancy and resistance to battle damage.

Combined with the Aero-adaptive Aero-optic Beam Control (ABC) turret the company is developing in partnership with the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and Air Force Research Laboratory – Lockheed says a functional airborne laser weapon could be deployed by the end of the decade.

“We’re certainly talking to the air force about their plans and roadmap for developing laser weapons for F-35 and other platforms,” says Afzal. “We would want to do that in partnership with the air force, both with the turret and platform.”

The company is taking a number of approaches to aircraft protection, and is also pursuing a miniature self-defense munition through a project called “KICM”.

Lockheed’s first 60kW laser will be delivered to the army “late next year,” and in the meantime the company will begin army-sponsored trials of its ground-based, 30kW high-energy laser testbed called ATHENA at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico later this year.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 01:58
by spazsinbad
Another 'Airborne Laser / F-35 one day' story here: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/10/lock ... iber-tech/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 02:43
by popcorn
Getting rid of all that heat is another impetus for adaptive engine third-stream designs.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 21:27
by tritonprime
"Lasers Could Be Coming To The F-35"
by Patrick Tucker
10/06/15

Source:
http://www.defenseone.com/technology/20 ... 35/122581/

Lockheed Martin’s new modular fiber lasers now convert fully 40 percent of input energy to output, which means that — along with advances in manufacturing, targeting, and size-weight-power minimization — the company’s now talking about putting a laser weapon on the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

“We are absolutely looking at concepts for integration,” Robert Afzal, the company’s senior fellow of laser systems and sensors, told reporters yesterday.

Unlike solid-state bulk lasers that rely on crystal components, or powerful but unstable chemical lasers, fiber lasers generate their beams inside fiber optics, making the device more flexible and efficient. Afzal compared it to a prism that works in reverse. Whereas a prism takes light and fractures it into beams of different colors, a fiber laser merges several beams into one.

Moreover, Lockheed Martin has developed a way to adjust a laser weapon’s output by adding modules, allowing it to be tailored for missions or threats.

The company is under contract to deliver a 60-kilowatt fiber laser to the Pentagon next year. “The Army has the option to add more modules and increase power from 60kW to 120kW as a result of the laser’s modularity,” the company said in a press release.

“Because the laser is so electrically efficient, the laser weapon will be smaller than previous technologies,” said Afzal.

Those efficiency gains could make it suitable for jets. The company faces competition from rival General Atomics, which has already delivered a 150-kilowatt solid-state laser to the Pentagon for testing and is looking into mounting one on the company’s Predator C drone.

The Air Force has recently become more bold in its predictions that a laser could be airborne by 2020. For instance, the Missile Defense Agency recently announced that they were revamping the Airborne Laser Program that was shuttered in 2012. The goal is to fly an airborne laser demonstrator in 2021.

“Everybody thinks you have a tendency to talk about high-powered microwaves and lasers and it’s kind of science fiction,” Air Combat Command leader Gen. Herbert Carlisle, the leader of Air Combat Command, said at the recent Air Force Association Air and Space Conference. “But this is a reality. … I believe that we will have a directed energy capability in a pod that can be mounted on a fighter aircraft very soon.”

Afzal cautioned that an F-35 laser was currently mostly a topic of interest and discussion within the company.

“What we’re doing is we’re looking at the concepts. How would a system even go into the F-35? And we’re also looking into the utility and doing models and calculations to see the utility,” he said.

And Air Force officials have hinted that they’re interested in putting a laser on the jet, although other have noted that such a weapon would primarily be intended to protect a plane from enemy aircraft — something the F-35’s stealth features are already supposed to do.

“We’re certainly talking to the Air Force about their plans, their roadmap, for developing laser weapons for F-35 and other platforms. We would want to do that in partnership with the Air Force,” said Iain Mckinnie, business development lead for Laser Sensors and Systems, Lockheed Martin Mission Systems and Training.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2015, 09:38
by taog
Dragon029 wrote:Do you have a link to the source PDF? I wouldn't mind seeing what else is talked about.

Edit: Found it.

Hey~do you have the access of this article?
i am not the member... Orz

http://aviationweek.com/technology/insi ... ser-weapon

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2015, 09:45
by taog
F-35 would not equip laser weapon , at least , until 2025.

------------------------------------------------------------------
USAF holding old gunships for laser demos

The US Air Force has kept some Lockheed Martin AC-130U gunships marked for retirement for use as directed energy weapon testbeds as the service pursues airborne lasers for offensive and defensive uses.

Maj Gen Jerry Harris, vice-chief of Air Combat Command, says a number of gunships that would have otherwise been sent to the boneyard are now being used to test emerging directed energy technologies, like lasers and microwave energy guns.

“We have a requirement for a minimum number of gunships,” Harris said at a 28 July Centre for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments directed energy summit in Washington. “We have some additional U-models we will fly longer for testbeds.”

Lt Gen Bradley Heithold, commander of Air Force Special Operations Command, said at the event that he wants the new C-130J Ghostrider gunship being developed to have both an offensive airborne laser capability and “active denial system,” which is a microwave energy heat blast used to disperse crowds or a single threat.

“We want to build the ultimate battle plane that can fight its way to its objective,” the commander says.

While AFSOC’s primary focus is gunship-based lasers, Air Combat Command is also pursuing the technology for fighters and bombers. Harris says the Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle has “power to spare” and a testbed aircraft is available for experimentation.

He says the air force is looking for airborne lasers for integration into a standard pod or conformal tank for laser demonstrations. “It’s past the time to test these in the labs; we need it in the field,” he says.

Harris says laser weapons probably won’t find their way onto the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter any time soon, but might be integrated in the future beyond the Block 4 rollout, which is due to add new capabilities to the fifth-generation jet from 2019 to 2025.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2015, 13:34
by charlielima223
I am under the impression that a high energy laser for future aircraft is mainly going to be used as a defensive countermeasure rather than an offensive weapon (though it sure can be). I am not a physicist but even though we have come a long way from "miniaturizing" or at least making them significantly smaller, they still require a large amount of energy. Would a future ADVENT engine help create enough power for these systems?

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2015, 14:05
by bring_it_on
charlielima223 wrote:I am under the impression that a high energy laser for future aircraft is mainly going to be used as a defensive countermeasure rather than an offensive weapon (though it sure can be). I am not a physicist but even though we have come a long way from "miniaturizing" or at least making them significantly smaller, they still require a large amount of energy. Would a future ADVENT engine help create enough power for these systems?


No both offensive and Defensive. AFRL's SHEILD system starts off with a smaller defensive system by 2020 and is looking to transition into an offensive system by 2022. Some of the transition is just moving to a larger laser (say 30-60KW to 100-150 KW for example), and another is to have enough power and cooling to handle longer and more frequent bursts. Work is on all fronts to solve a lot of these challenges both in the Fiber lasers, and SSL's. There is healthy competition among Lockheed, GA, NG and others in this domain. Directed Energy is probably the fastest growing component of internal R&D among the interested parties and from what I gather speaking to a couple of folks that have worked on the academic side of things - it is being seen as a breakthrough capability for everything from long range strike to air-dominance.

Inside Lockheed Martin’s Fiber-Laser Weapon

With inherently higher electrical efficiency and beam quality, fiber lasers are in a race to reach maturity before the military makes decisions on the development and deployment of high-energy electric laser weapon systems for defensive and offensive missions.

A key step is the U.S. Army’s planned demonstration in 2017 of a 60-kW fiber-laser system developed by Lockheed Martin. But rival solid-state lasers have already exceeded 100 kW in demonstrations and are at a higher technology readiness level (TRL) as the services eye the potential for early fielding of directed-energy weapons.

Lockheed has begun production of the fiber-laser modules for the 60-kW system. The company was awarded a $25 million contract in April to build and test the modular laser for integration into the Army’s Boeing-developed High-Energy Laser Mobile Demonstrator (HEL MD). “We will deliver the laser to the customer at the end of 2016,” says Lockheed senior fellow Rob Afzal.

Previously, Lockheed built a 30-kW system using internal funds to demonstrate the feasibility of combining the beams from multiple fiber lasers while maintaining beam quality and electrical efficiency. The modular technology allows the laser to scale up to power levels beyond 100 kW, Afzal says. After the 2017 demo, the Army plans to upgrade the HEL MD to 100 kW and could do this simply by adding modules, he adds.
Generating the laser beam by diode-pumping a long optical fiber results in higher beam quality and electrical efficiency but less power than solid-state devices using slabs of laser crystal as the gain medium. This requires the beams from multiple fibers to be combined efficiently to form a single high-power beam. Lockheed says its laser system can achieve 40% efficiency, reducing the power-generation and cooling requirements for the overall weapon system.

Afzal says the beam-combined fiber laser’s higher power and beam quality puts more irradiance on the target at greater range. This can increase engagement range or reduce defeat time, allowing a laser weapon system to “shoot-look-shoot” against multiple targets. Lockheed uses spectral beam combining. The output from each fiber-laser module is at a slightly different wavelength. A diffraction grating combines the beams by laying one on top of the other to form a single high-power beam—like a prism in reverse, he explains.

Compared with coherent beam combining used in other high-power lasers, spectral beam combining provides the highest “power-in-the-bucket” efficiency, a measure of beam quality that is a function of the power delivered to the target area. “The issue with a phased array is the sidelobes. The power in the lobes does not provide effect on the target,” says Afzal. “Coherent is efficient, but there is a lot of added complexity we feel isn’t necessary for the types of power and tactical applications we are trying to achieve. We went for the simplest, most elegant approach.”

The 30-kW Aladin demo system has around 100 fiber-laser modules. The 60-kW prototype for the Army has fewer, higher-power, kilowatt-class fiber lasers. “It’s almost 1 for 1 [lasers vs. kilowatts]. You can tack on 5-10%. That’s one of the big advantages of spectral beam combining,” says Afzal. On the end of each laser module is a delivery fiber that terminates in the beam-combiner box. This outputs a single high-power beam to the weapon system’s laser-beam director turret.

One aim of the demo system was to understand how to manufacture the lasers and what life-limited elements would wear out. The production modules are “more rugged, more traceable to a tactical vehicle and to beyond 100 kW,” he says. The truck-mounted HEL MD has been tested against mortars and unmanned aircraft with a 10-kW industrial fiber laser, but range and lethality was limited. After demonstration of the 60-kW system in 2017, plans call for tests of the 100-kW version by 2022.

Lockheed makes its own fiber lasers because of the need for high beam quality, but it uses component technologies such as optical fibers and pump diodes from the commercial market. “There have been two revolutions in lasers: telecommunications, and industrial cutting and welding. We bring them together to create a new class of laser,” Afzal says.

Industrial fiber lasers are available with higher power, up to 10 kW per fiber, but not with the quality required for beam combining. Most live-fire tests of laser weapons so far have used industrial lasers but scaled the power by aiming multiple beams at a common point so they overlap. This is done with the U.S. Navy’s 30-kW Laser Weapon System prototype, which has been deployed operationally for evaluation in the Persian Gulf on the forward-staging ship USS Ponce.
Advantages of a modular fiber laser include scaling, cooling and packaging. “With a modular design, you can scale to higher power by loading more modules into the rack, like blade servers in a server farm,” he says. Each module is independently cooled. “As we add more modules, we increase the size of the cooling system but not its complexity. It’s parallel, not serial. Previously, you ran into a scaling problem where, as the laser got more powerful and the slabs got bigger, you couldn’t get the heat out.”

Flexibility in packaging the modules is another benefit. “You can stack them vertically or horizontally, or in two cabinets. They are all independent, and the fiber delivers the power,” Afzal says. The Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) is looking at systems for sixth-generation fighters where the laser modules would be distributed throughout the aircraft and the beams routed by fibers through the tight confines of the airframe to a conformal array on the fuselage surface.

As it begins building the Army system, Lockheed is studying how the fiber-laser technology can be applied to other requirements. “We are looking at how we could package the system into a weapons module for the Littoral Combat Ship or into a pod for an aircraft, as well as Army tactical vehicles,” he says.

One potential application is AFRL’s planned Self-Protected High-Energy Laser Demonstration (Shield), for which a solicitation is expected shortly. Shield aims to demo an anti-missile self-defense pod for fighters by 2020 and a longer-range, 100-kW system by 2022. The Air Force wants the laser technology for a self-defense pod to be scalable to an offensive weapon that can be carried by larger aircraft, beginning with special-operations gunships.

“The Shield technology level we can do now,” says Afzal. “We would look at modifications to make it more relevant to the Air Force, but it is not a next-generation system.” But the key issue could be maturity of the fiber-laser technology versus other solid-state electric lasers. Army trials of the 60-kW system will take Lockheed’s technology to TRL 6, “arguably TRL 7 depending on how they use the system and if they do tactical engagements,” he says. The race is on.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 02:04
by spazsinbad
Turbulence-taming Turret: Lockheed Martin Prototype Expands Laser Performance at Jet Speeds
15 Oct 2015 LM PR

"SUNNYVALE, Calif., Oct. 15, 2015 – Because enemy aircraft and missiles can come from anywhere, a laser weapon system on a military aircraft will need to be able to fire in any direction. However, the laws of physics say that a laser only can engage targets in front of an aircraft that is travelling close to the speed of sound – unless atmospheric turbulence can be counteracted. That’s exactly what Lockheed Martin has done in developing a prototype laser turret for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL), paving the way for laser weapon systems on tactical aircraft.

The Aero-adaptive Aero-optic Beam Control (ABC) turret is the first turret ever to demonstrate a 360-degree field of regard for laser weapon systems on an aircraft flying near the speed of sound. Its performance has been verified in nearly 60 flight tests conducted in 2014 and 2015 using a business jet as a low-cost flying test bed. As the aircraft travelled at jet cruise speeds, a low-power laser beam was fired through the turret’s optical window to measure and verify successful performance in all directions.

The design uses the latest aerodynamic and flow-control technology to minimize the impacts of turbulence on a laser beam. An optical compensation system, which uses deformable mirrors, then is used to ensure that the beam can get through the atmosphere to the target. Left unchecked, turbulence would scatter the light particles that make up a laser beam, much like fog diffuses a flashlight beam.

“This advanced turret design will enable tactical aircraft to have the same laser weapon system advantages as ground vehicles and ships,” said Doug Graham, vice president of missile systems and advanced programs, Strategic and Missile Defense Systems, Lockheed Martin Space Systems. “This is an example of how Lockheed Martin is using a variety of innovative technologies to transform laser devices into integrated weapon systems.”

DARPA and AFRL will use the results of the flight tests in determining future requirements for laser weapon systems on high-speed aircraft and expanding their effectiveness.

Lockheed Martin is positioning laser weapon systems for success on the battlefield because of their advantages of speed, flexibility, precision and low cost per engagement. The corporation’s advances include the development and demonstration of precision pointing and control, line-of-sight stabilization and adaptive optics and high-power fiber lasers."

Source: http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/p ... darpa.html

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2015, 02:31
by popcorn
Great ! Another technicall hurdle overcome. Momentum has definitely been building as a lot of the investment in laser research going back decades to Star Wars seems about to bear fruit.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2016, 02:03
by bring_it_on

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2016, 21:58
by lamoey
I wonder how many turrets will be needed for 360deg coverage, and will the system be flexible, and powerfull enough to attach more than one target at a time, i.e. using one turret per target?

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2016, 03:49
by Dragon029
I personally see 3 locations for a laser:

Incorporated into the EOTS or top and bottom of the F1 fuel tank:

Image

If you can only have one turret due to cost / volume, then you want it on the bottom of your jet, because that'll cover the majority of your threats, allowing you to shoot downwards and towards the horizon. If you can volumetrically afford it (and if you can redesign the EOTS aperture to work with a HEL whilst remaining stealthy), placing the optical system / turret where the EOTS sits and using the AEOTS sensors + backend for laser targeting could save you costs and you get a wider FOV, especially in the forwards sector, looking up. The laser generator, etc would sit rearward in the jet and feed the optical assembly via fiber.

If there's not enough room in the nose however, then you might as well put it into the F1 tank. A second turret can be used as well on top. The compromise here though is less fuel carriage and you also need to redesign the lower, forward looking DAS aperture to something like this (the lower turret could be further rearward):

Image

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2016, 08:35
by KamenRiderBlade
For the F-35A, I see it being mounted in a pod to take the place of the centerline Gun Pod mount.

The pod could allow 360 degree bottom hemisphere coverage

Which would be more than good enough for bombing runs, especially if every F-35A flies over and provides group coverage and network distribution of targets.

If they need to cover the upper hemisphere, they can just barrel roll the airplane 180 degrees =D

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2016, 13:07
by gideonic
KamenRiderBlade wrote:For the F-35A, I see it being mounted in a pod to take the place of the centerline Gun Pod mount.

The pod could allow 360 degree bottom hemisphere coverage

Which would be more than good enough for bombing runs, especially if every F-35A flies over and provides group coverage and network distribution of targets.

If they need to cover the upper hemisphere, they can just barrel roll the airplane 180 degrees =D

I also though they would use the pod for High Energy Laser, but not only for the A model. It should work just as well for B and C as you don't have to carry the gun to every single mission. Just the opposite, I find it quite unlikely you'd want to do strafing runs in a high-threat, area-denial environment.

Regardless, I still wonder where do they plan to fit this: http://aviationweek.com/defense/northro ... ammer-f-35
Positions that Dragon029 mentioned seem quite likely for that.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2016, 20:38
by spazsinbad
Air Force Official: F-35 Still Facing Maintenance Challenges
28 Apr 2016 Allyson Versprille

"...Meanwhile, Pawlikowski said the Air Force is continuing efforts to field directed energy weapons.

In the past, there have been two main challenges with directed energy: achieving technological maturity and having realistic expectations, she said.

However, with advances in solid-state lasers, "I think we're on the cusp of actually being able to field a true laser weapon within the next five to six years."

Pawlikowski noted Air Force Special Operations Command's efforts to place a directed energy weapon on its AC-130J Ghostrider gunship by 2020. There is also potential for using such weapons on fifth-generation fighters, she said.

"We've got an activity that's going forward … to put a laser on a fighter aircraft, not to blow up scud missiles or to win in a dogfight, but as an air defense," she said."

Source: http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... px?ID=2167

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2016, 01:36
by spazsinbad
Lockheed Still Supporting Portable Nuclear Generator
03 May 2016 Aaron Mehta

"WASHINGTON — Lockheed Martin continues to invest in its portable nuclear fusion generator, with that investment recently entering a more advanced stage, according to the head of the company’s Skunk Works division.

Rob Weiss told an audience at the Atlantic Council that Lockheed is “about four months into a little bit more significant investment” into the technology, which was first revealed around two years ago....

... If the system could be further shrunk, it could potentially become a powerplant for fighter jets, providing the power needed for directed energy weapons and advanced sensors....

...Weiss also confirmed the team has achieved “initial plasma,” an important early step for the reactor."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /83870398/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2016, 03:40
by steakanddoritos
spazsinbad wrote:
Lockheed Still Supporting Portable Nuclear Generator
03 May 2016 Aaron Mehta

"WASHINGTON — Lockheed Martin continues to invest in its portable nuclear fusion generator, with that investment recently entering a more advanced stage, according to the head of the company’s Skunk Works division.

Rob Weiss told an audience at the Atlantic Council that Lockheed is “about four months into a little bit more significant investment” into the technology, which was first revealed around two years ago....

... If the system could be further shrunk, it could potentially become a powerplant for fighter jets, providing the power needed for directed energy weapons and advanced sensors....

...Weiss also confirmed the team has achieved “initial plasma,” an important early step for the reactor."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /83870398/


Absolutely nuts. Perhaps just nuts enough to work...

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2016, 21:13
by whitewhale
If only there was an F-35 variant which had a big hole in the middle to place everything and a tunnel direct to the engine for power generation... If only!

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2016, 05:07
by SpudmanWP
Image

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2016, 05:20
by popcorn
Well, Gen. Hostage did want a deeper magazine. This could redefine what a 6Gen fighter looks like. Kinemartics become even less relevant.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2016, 09:01
by popcorn
http://www.janes.com/article/63185/nort ... f-fighters

Northrop Grumman to develop laser pod to protect USAF fighters

Northrop Grumman has been awarded a USD39.3 million contract related to the development of a laser-based self-defence system for the US Air Force (USAF).

The contract, which was awarded by the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) on 23 August, is for the Self-Protect High Energy Laser Demonstrator (SHiELD) Turret Research in Aero-Effects (STRAFE) programme.

Northrop Grumman will develop and deliver an advanced beam control system for integration as part of a complete laser weapons system into a tactical pod for USAF fighter aircraft.

As noted by the Department of Defense (DoD), the STRAFE aspect of the award will increase the knowledge and understanding of aero-optic disturbances in a supersonic environment by collecting data during engagement scenarios.

Work is expected to be complete by 31 August 2021.

It is intended that the SHiELD pod would better enable the USAF's fourth-generation fighter fleet, such as the Boeing F-15 Eagle and Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, to survive in contested airspace. The fifth-generation Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II would probably not carry the pod, as it would negate their stealth characteristics.

Current defence countermeasures divert incoming missiles away from the target aircraft, while the externally carried SHiELD pod would instead destroy the missile. Future pods will seek to increase this power output for greater effect/range.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2016, 15:57
by les_paul59
The f-15 is getting all these new toys....new radar, laser pod, ew suite in the 2030's

The f-15 is going to be more like a transformer than a jet soon

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2016, 18:00
by neptune
popcorn wrote:...Work is expected to be complete by 31 August 2021. It is intended that the SHiELD pod would better enable the USAF's fourth-generation fighter fleet, such as the Boeing F-15 Eagle and Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, to survive in contested airspace. ....


The F-135 presently delivers 160 KWe of power (total), by far more than the 4 gen a/c.
A pod air driven turbine generator will be "slightly" less than those.

If this thing works by 2021, then the power source could also be considered for EA/ EW and/ or a data node.
:wink:

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2016, 21:35
by gergf-14
Who needs laser when you have eyes like these....

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 23:31
by bayernfan
The Marine Corps is working toward the day when it could equip an F-35B joint strike fighter with a directed energy weapon, a top service official said Aug. 30.

Putting a laser on board an F-35 is “absolutely,” something the Marine Corps would be interested in, said Lt. Gen. Robert Walsh, commanding general of Marine Corps Combat Development Command and deputy commandant of combat development and integration.

To get to that point, the service would start by putting the system on a KC-130, which would be a better fit because of current size, weight and power constraints, he said during a breakfast meeting with defense reporters in Washington, D.C.

“As soon as we could miniaturize them, we would put them on F-35s, Cobra … any of those kind of attack aircraft,” he said. Walsh said a laser could also be installed on an MV-22 Osprey.

So far, it has been a struggle reducing the size of directed energy weapons, he said. In order to produce enough power to be effective against a threat, systems are often large, he said.

Yet laser weapons technology is something that will be increasingly critical for the service going forward, Walsh said.

“It’s very important. It’s where we want to go,” he said. Lasers will lighten the Corps' loads by reducing the amount of energy, powder and kinetic ordnance it must carry into the field, he said.

The service is currently working alongside the Office of Naval Research on the ground-based air defense directed energy on-the-move program, he said. The goal of that effort is to mount a high-energy laser on a vehicle.

“The ‘on-the-move’ piece is trying to get it onto a vehicle that we can maneuver with,"
he said. ONR has demonstrated a 10-kilowatt laser and the intent is to move to a 30-kilowatt laser, he added. The system could be used against enemy unmanned aerial vehicles, he said.

Meanwhile, the Marine Corps is preparing to send the F-35B on deployment abroad, Walsh said. Its first operational squadron — VMFA-121 — will deploy to Japan in 2017 onboard the USS Wasp amphibious assault ship, he said.

“Our intent right now is to put six F-35s on to Wasp,” he said. “The squadron … will deploy with 16 airplanes … to Japan. Six will go on Wasp, 10 will stay there as the parent squadron. We can change that mix depending on the mission. So we could probably put up to 16 — all of them — onto the Wasp, but we would being moving capabilities off of it.”

There are also plans to deploy another squadron from another Wasp-class ship, the USS Essex, he said.

“Not only are we deploying it on the Wasp in the Pacific, we’re also going to deploy it on Essex during the same year in Central Command,” he said. “That’s quite the challenge, to put two squadrons aboard two ships and deploy them.”

The Essex will soon undergo modifications to support the joint strike fighter, he said. There are also plans to deploy a squadron with the USS America amphibious assault ship where the Marine Corps is preparing to do more F-35 integration testing, he added.

Putting the F-35 on board amphibious ships requires a number of modifications, he said. The service has "never had that kind of capability [on an amphibious ship] and it's forcing lots of change within the Navy and Marine Corps,” he said. “We’ll … continue to modify our big-deck amphibs to be able to take F-35s as deployments continue.”

The Marine Corps will take lessons learned from these deployments and make adjustments to the aircraft, he said.

“As the first one out the door in operational deployment, we’ll learn from that and see what capabilities … we have to grow into the airplane to continue to develop it,” he said. “A lot of it is going to be school of hard knocks when we put it out there.”

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... px?ID=2286

A lot about the deployment, but assure us once again laser on F-35 is the direction.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 01:28
by spazsinbad
:twisted: First let us LAZER this twat wot writes this LAST paragraph (not shown but elsewhere).... :devil: BUT I'll put it in a more appropriate place. Go here for the beer & get Zapped: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=52302&p=351799&hilit=enormous#p351799
Zap. Marines Like Lasers For F-35B
30 Aug 2016 Colin Clark

"WASHINGTON: Lasers. On the F-35B.

Ok, there’s no money, And no timetable. But the head of Marine requirements, Lt. Gen. Robert Walsh, told reporters he could “absolutely” see the Joint Strike Fighter armed with lasers. This is consistent with plans we’ve heard from Northrop Grumman for the notional sixth-generation fighter and with the heavy push across the Defense Department to shrink lasers and to arm ships, planes and armored vehicles with lasers.

Lt. Gen. Robert Walsh (1)Walsh, speaking to the Defense Writers Group at a Tuesday breakfast, made clear this isn’t going to happen any time soon. First, lasers would go on a KC-130. Then they would strive to shrink the laser and its power source and only then put it on F-35s, Cobras and other combat aircraft...."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2016/08/zap- ... for-f-35b/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 02:37
by neptune
[quote="spazsinbad...."First, lasers would go on a KC-130. Then they would strive to shrink the laser and its power source and only then put it on F-35s, Cobras and other combat aircraft...."...[/quote]

F-135 160KWe
B-787 1.5Mwe

May2015 "ALADIN combines the output of several fiber lasers, each with a slightly different wavelength, into a single 30-kW beam." (from approximately a 20' shipping container)..."a February 2014 poll of US national-security specialists found that just one-fifth believed that directed-energy weapon technologies would be mature within a decade."

...maybe in the next 30 years for the F-35, a laser in some form will step up from today's 160KWe and become an effective weapons system, I hope! :wink:

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 02:50
by popcorn
A2A Missiles were not "mature" in the '60s but that didn't prevent them from being deployed and changing the air combat paradigm.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 03:40
by spazsinbad
Why the USMC is interested in lasers in quotation below otherwise story similar to one above - from same GEN. source.
Official: Marine Corps Could Equip F-35B with Laser Weapon
30 Aug 2016 Yasmin Tadjdeh

"...“It’s very important. It’s where we want to go,” he said. Lasers will lighten the Corps' loads by reducing the amount of energy, powder and kinetic ordnance it must carry into the field, he said.

The service is currently working alongside the Office of Naval Research on the ground-based air defense directed energy on-the-move program, he said. The goal of that effort is to mount a high-energy laser on a vehicle.

“The ‘on-the-move’ piece is trying to get it onto a vehicle that we can maneuver with," he said. ONR has demonstrated a 10-kilowatt laser and the intent is to move to a 30-kilowatt laser, he added. The system could be used against enemy unmanned aerial vehicles, he said...."

Source: http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... px?ID=2286

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 03:48
by SpudmanWP
The F-35's superb SA combined with the ability to take out missiles, SAMs, mortars, arty, snipers, sappers, IED placement teams, uavs, etc for "free" (ie fuel for the electricity only) is an obvious advantage, especially in the CAS role.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2016, 01:08
by neptune
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-429129/

AFRL prepares to unveil 20-year propulsion vision

...For combat aircraft in the mid-2030s, the basic architecture is not going to work, according to the US Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL). Plans to insert laser weapons into future fighters and armed drones will overwhelm power and thermal management capacity...

“In some ways, you’re going to ask the engine to do things they haven’t been asked to do before,” says Chuck Cross, the AFRL’s chief of the Turbine Engine Division.

This re-imagining of the aircraft propulsion system will require a series of innovations extending well beyond the jet engine itself. That is why Cross will appear on 12 September at the Turbine Engine Technology Symposium in Dayton, Ohio, to unveil a new 20-year plan to drive several key advances in jet engine technology.

In the AFRL’s vision, the architecture of the jet engine for military aircraft will change dramatically over the next two decades. Bypass ratios will ebb and flow depending on mission need. Key elements of the compressor will change shape in mid-flight, reshaping the air flow as it is squeezed in route to the combustor. Electrical power could be extracted from low-pressure and high-pressure compressor sections, feeding energy to power-hungry lasers and advanced sensors. The heat created by that power will be stored in newly-created systems, such as electrical accumulators or wax-based heat exchangers.


note* several current proposals have a goal in 2025 of 100KW lasers in the F-35 with the F-135 currently generating 160KW total electrical power for existing systems.

...jet stuff at the jump... :)

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2016, 01:28
by sferrin
"That is why Cross will appear on 12 September at the Turbine Engine Technology Symposium in Dayton, Ohio, to unveil a new 20-year plan to drive several key advances in jet engine technology."

The Chinese will probably be streaming it live.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2016, 19:06
by uclass
neptune wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-afrl-prepares-to-unveil-20-year-propulsion-429129/

Article not found?

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2016, 19:18
by SpudmanWP
Google flightglobal 429129 and then look at the cached version

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2016, 23:01
by spazsinbad
Entire? article posted by 'neptune' here in ENGINES sub-section: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=52320&p=352362&hilit=propulsion#p352362

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 15:54
by taog
http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/gen ... aser-demos

Who can see this article? i don't have the access Orz lolllllllllllll

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2017, 22:43
by spazsinbad
AvWEAK needs your subscription BUT NOT MINE to read this stuff but anyway there are clues at the URL.
U.S. Air Force To Pick Laser For ‘SHiELD’ Fighter Demo
31 Jul 2017 James Drew

"SHiELD laser could protect fighters... U.S. Air Combat Command (ACC) believes one answer is high-power laser weapons capable of intercepting incoming enemy missiles at the speed of light..."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/aviation-week-s ... ghter-demo

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 15:44
by eloise
I wonder what would be main criteria for fighter when laser weapons become popular

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 15:56
by SpudmanWP
reflectivity

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 16:08
by spazsinbad
:shock: :devil: Mirror Mirror on the wall: who's the fairest of them all? :doh: :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 16:13
by lamoey
From above mentioned article:

U.S. Air Combat Command (ACC) believes one answer is high-power laser weapons capable of intercepting incoming enemy missiles at the speed of light. The command has backed a five-year advanced technology demonstration by the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) that will equip a Boeing F-15 with a high-energy laser pod.

The AFRL Self-protect High-Energy Laser Demonstrator (SHiELD) is one of more than $3 billion worth of laser weapons programs being funded by the U.S. government through 2021.

The directed-energy division at Kirtland AFB, New Mexico, has already selected Boeing for the laser pod and Northrop Grumman for the beam control system. Now AFRL is on the cusp of selecting a high-power laser source for eventual flight testing.

SHiELD program manager Richard Bagnell tells Aviation Week that the contract for the Laser Advancements for Next-generation Compact Environments (LANCE) program will be awarded within the next several months. The winner will “design, fabricate and deliver a reliable, ruggedized high-power laser with excellent beam quality and compact design” for ground and flight testing at subsonic, transonic and potentially supersonic speeds, says the government’s broad agency announcement.

SHiELD has allocated $35 million for high-power laser development in fiscal 2017-21, peaking at $11 million in fiscal 2019 ahead of planned ground and flight testing. Northrop received a $47 million contract on Aug. 23, 2016, for development and demonstration of the beam control system, which must overcome the aero-optical and aero-mechanical disturbances of the supersonic regime. A key challenge will be directing an intercept-quality beam through the fighter’s hot, turbulent wake.

For Boeing’s $90 million contract awarded Dec. 15, 2016, for a ruggedized, laser-ready pod, it will work through challenging power supply and thermal management issues, as well as provide fire control and operator interface onboard the F-15.

Bagnell says the Phase 1 program with Boeing and Northrop culminates in a low-power laser demonstration of the pod and beam control system to prove the system can track and intercept a target.

The laser selected for Phase 2 will be integrated later. The LANCE winner has 36 months from contract award to deliver a flight-ready laser, with ground testing starting at 39 months and high-power flight-testing within 48 months, a notional schedule. The entire demonstration program runs five years.

ACC backed the SHiELD laser demo following a 2014 study into high-energy applications for future air dominance. The study concluded there is near-term potential for lasers as self-protection in high-threat environments. If the technology proves itself, it might be integrated with a future fighter platform, such as the sixth-generation Penetrating Counter-Air.

Bagnell is under no illusions about the project’s challenges. The F-15 was chosen over a roomier widebody aircraft because lasers have greater operational utility for self-protection. Fighters are fast, agile, must operate deep within enemy territory and are responsible for suppressing and destroying enemy air defenses as well as protecting large and vulnerable support assets, such as refueling tankers and early warning jets.

“What we’re learning is that slab and fiber lasers can be compacted to a point where they could be useful on a small platform, like a fighter aircraft,” Bagnell says.

SHiELD must be capable of recharging in flight and performing at least 15 shots per sortie. With hundreds of kilowatts generated and stored per shot, flight safety is an extreme concern. An operational laser pod might be slung under the wing alongside other munitions and stores, or embedded in the body for aerodynamic efficiency or to maintain a low radar cross-section. “If safety requirements mean we must be able to jettison the pod, we’ll jettison the pod. But it will be an expensive pod to jettison,” Bagnell says.

He says safety during recharging is a concern, but the SHiELD team will take extra precautions to ensure any laser systems installed on the F-15 or future fighters are safe. “The whole point is to defend that aircraft, not pose a risk to it,” Bagnell adds.

SHiELD builds on the success of General Atomics’ ground-based 150-kW-class High-Energy Liquid Laser Area Defense System, which was delivered to the government in late 2015 and has completed high-power testing at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico.

There are several other U.S. efforts to integrate high-power lasers on aircraft. The Missile Defense Agency’s Low-Power Laser Demonstrator is maturing directed-energy technology for deployment on a stratospheric UAV, with the goal of shooting down rogue missiles in their ascent phase.

The Army partnered with Raytheon to flight-test a laser pod on a Boeing AH-64 Apache gunship, hitting a stationary target at a slant range of 0.9 mi. Air Force Special Operations Command wants to conduct a high-power laser demonstration from an AC-130 gunship.

With so many programs springing up in recent years, the Pentagon is aligning efforts with a long-term directed-energy road map. Lt. Gen. Bradley Heithold, principal deputy director of the Pentagon’s Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation office, says $673 million has been allocated for high-energy laser development in this year’s defense budget, with a total $3.4 billion allocated across five years. “We wanted to make sure it’s going to efforts that are resulting in filling a gap or void we have, with true concepts of operation,” Heithold says.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 16:19
by SpudmanWP
Laser-proof drones

Image

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 16:25
by spazsinbad
:devil: This works for me = Ca plane pour moi :doh:


Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Aug 2017, 16:46
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:Laser-proof drones

Image



Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2017, 14:02
by steve2267
An interesting news article shedding a little light on how one obtains 1MW of energy from a gas turbine...

GE reveals major achievements in hybrid electric propulsion

25 August, 2017 SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com BY: Stephen Trimble Washington DC

GE Aviation has broken a two-year silence on a major research project in hybrid electric propulsion with a new white paper that discloses several major advances demonstrated in two experiments since 2015 and that confirms the company is in talks with several potential aircraft makers about using the new technology.

Among traditional propulsion suppliers, Honeywell and Rolls-Royce have been most outspoken about efforts to develop new hybrid propulsion technology. Both companies have partnered to develop a 1MW-class hybrid propulsion system for the Aurora Flight Sciences XV-24A, a demonstrator for the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

But GE has been working quietly behind the scenes to build the foundational technology for a similar 1MW-sized powerplant with broad applications across military, commercial, business and general aviation markets, according to a white paper published by the company on 25 August.

During two events staged since 2015, GE demonstrated major advances in two key ingredients of any hybrid propulsion system: power generation and electric motors, the document shows.

In the area of power generation, GE modified an F110 engine, a propulsion option for the Boeing F-15 and Lockheed Martin F-16, to generate 1MW of electric power. By siphoning compressed air from the core, GE extracted 250kW from the high-pressure turbine and – in and industry first for a two-shaft engine – 750kW from the low-pressure turbine, according to the white paper.

As a megawatt of electric power is equivalent to 1,341hp, the F110 still has plenty of thrust to continue powering even in a single-engined aircraft. A single F110 can generate up to 32,000lb-thrust, which is equivalent to 44,300hp.

By extracting electric power from both modules of the turbine section, GE has created an architecture with a broad array of potential future applications, including military programmes with an interest in laser weapons.

...

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 000000taAm


More at the jump...

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2017, 14:10
by steve2267
Mr. Trimble writes "with a new white paper that discloses..." yet fails to provide a link to said white paper.

My google-fu is weak this morning. All I found is https://www.gepower.com/resources/downloads which appears to be where one can download GE white papers. Yet, this new 1MW gas turbine hybrid engine did not jump out at me, and I have not the time to wrestle it out of that GE website. Perhaps someone else might have more luck than I.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 07:32
by spazsinbad
L.M. Contract to Develop Compact Airborne High Energy Laser Capabilities
06 Nov 2017 LM PR

"BOTHELL, Wash., The Air Force Research Lab (AFRL) awarded Lockheed Martin $26.3 million for the design, development and production of a high power fiber laser. AFRL plans to test the laser on a tactical fighter jet by 2021. The contract is part of AFRL's Self-protect High Energy Laser Demonstrator (SHiELD) program, and is a major step forward in the maturation of protective airborne laser systems.

Lockheed Martin is helping the Air Force Research Lab develop and mature high energy laser weapon systems, including the high energy laser pictured in this rendering. Credit: Air Force Research Lab

"Lockheed Martin continues to rapidly advance laser weapon systems and the technologies that make them possible," said Dr. Rob Afzal, senior fellow of laser weapon systems at Lockheed Martin. "We have demonstrated our ability to use directed energy to counter threats from the ground, and look forward to future tests from the air as part of the SHiELD system."

The SHiELD program includes three subsystems:
• SHiELD Turret Research in Aero Effects (STRAFE), the beam control system, which will direct the laser onto the target
• Laser Pod Research & Development (LPRD), the pod mounted on the tactical fighter jet, which will power and cool the laser
• Laser Advancements for Next-generation Compact Environments (LANCE), the high energy laser itself, which can be trained on adversary targets to disable them

LANCE is designed to operate in a compact environment, and as such, the Lockheed Martin team focused on developing a compact, high efficiency laser within challenging size, weight and power constraints.

"Earlier this year, we delivered a 60 kW-class laser to be installed on a U.S. Army ground vehicle. It's a completely new and different challenge to get a laser system into a smaller, airborne test platform. It's exciting to see this technology mature enough to embed in an aircraft," said Afzal. "The development of high power laser systems like SHiELD show laser weapon system technologies are becoming real. The technologies are ready to be produced, tested and deployed on aircraft, ground vehicles and ships."

Lockheed Martin has more than 40 years of experience developing laser weapon systems. The LANCE contract leverages technology building blocks from internal research and development projects, including the ATHENA system and ALADIN laser, as well as contract experience gained from programs such as the U.S. Army's Robust Electric Laser Initiative (RELI) program."

For more information, visit: http://www.lockheedmartin.com/directedenergy.

Graphic: "Lockheed Martin is helping the Air Force Research Lab develop and mature high energy laser weapon systems, including the high energy laser pictured in this rendering. Credit: Air Force Research Lab" https://prnewswire2-a.akamaihd.net/p/18 ... 011/type/1


Source: http://news.lockheedmartin.com/2017-11- ... assets_117

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 09:25
by neptune
steve2267 wrote:Mr. Trimble writes "with a new white paper that discloses..." yet fails to provide a link to said white paper.

My google-fu is weak this morning. All I found is https://www.gepower.com/resources/downloads which appears to be where one can download GE white papers. Yet, this new 1MW gas turbine hybrid engine did not jump out at me, and I have not the time to wrestle it out of that GE website. Perhaps someone else might have more luck than I.


....with the turbine involved in pushing the a/c, the generator has 160kw for the various light bulbs. The power consumption of a laser would be in addition to the existing electrical load rather than an alternate load, so.... how much can the F-35 spare to power a laser? I look forward to the field trials in the C-130s, and the evolutions from that design!
:)

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 14:32
by steve2267
I sounds like energy production is not going to be the stumbling block. Maybe you cannot fly 1.6 Mach balls to the wall and pew pew[p/i] bad guys. On the other hand, we seem to have established that since the F-35 has little difficulty reaching 1.6 Mach, perhaps it could [i] pew pew bad guys at that speed. Maybe you give up a little hard acceleration when pew pewing.

To me the hard questions are:
  • thermal management -- dumping heat generated from the electricity produced and excess waste heat from the laser itself
  • electricity storage for the shot -- mechanical flywheel? electrical capacitors? Or with the fiber laser can you just keep pumping the laser itself and the energy is stored in the coiled / looped fibers until released?

When I originally read about LM's success in beam combining -- taking multiple beams of light from different fibers and coalescing them into a single coherent light beam -- I thought they had solved the DEW problem. The slab lasers are impressive in their own right, but I am not sure they can be made as compact as fiber laser technology? Also, the fibers can be coiled, looped etc. The potential for routing / looping coils of laser fibers in an airframe would seem to be endless. On the other hand, if not designed for maintenance / replacement... fixing a fiber laser or finding the fiber break would be one huge PITA.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 17:56
by neptune
[quote="steve2267"]I sounds like energy production is not going to be the stumbling block. ....

....Ok? 160kw generator capacity minus the existing design loads does not lend itself to a very powerful laser. There doesn't appear to be ample?? mechanical room internal to the a/c for additional generating capacity. And....please don't advocate the less than stealthy air driven turbines similar to the EA-18G "pods". Capacitive storage in the weapons bays?? :wink:
:shock:

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 18:20
by sprstdlyscottsmn
neptune wrote:
steve2267 wrote:I sounds like energy production is not going to be the stumbling block. ....

....Ok? 160kw generator capacity minus the existing design loads does not lend itself to a very powerful laser. There doesn't appear to be ample?? mechanical room internal to the a/c for additional generating capacity. And....please don't advocate the less than stealthy air driven turbines similar to the EA-18G "pods". Capacitive storage in the weapons bays?? :wink:
:shock:

On an existing F-35 you might be right, but remember that the Bee already has a 22MW extraction device on the front of its engine. The engine loses half it's thrust to make it, but if we are only talking about needing 1MW at best then it sounds like we only need 5% of that reduction, or 2.5% total reduction of SL thrust.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 18:21
by steve2267
neptune wrote:
steve2267 wrote:I sounds like energy production is not going to be the stumbling block. ....


....Ok? 160kw generator capacity minus the existing design loads does not lend itself to a very powerful laser. There doesn't appear to be ample?? mechanical room internal to the a/c for additional generating capacity. And....please don't advocate the less than stealthy air driven turbines similar to the EA-18G "pods". Capacitive storage in the weapons bays?? :wink:
:shock:


Two thoughts:

First, I was referring back to my August 30, 2017 post wherein I posted an article that stated that GE had made a "breakthrough" in electrical power generation (or extraction) from bleed air from the high and low pressure turbine. The article stated GE had extracted 1MW from an F110. If GE can do it, I figure P&W can figure out how to do it. Or P&W teams with GE (doubtful), or GE gets a foot in the F-35E/L door with an AETP-derived F136+ motor.

Second, P&W already has the F135-PW-600 motor with that gigantic driveline forward. Either attach some additional generator equipment to that spinning hardware (driveshaft or liftfan) or replace the liftfan itself with generator + capacitors. Overly simplistic, perhaps, but possible, mebbe?

I always thought the weapons bays made nice large spaces within which miles of lasering fibers could be wound/coiled/looped.

But I still think power generation is the least problematic issue. Thermal management would appear to be the nutcracker.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 18:43
by steve2267
Once upon a time, I thought why not just extract all the power from the F135-PW-600 and turn it into electricity, then make the liftfan electric. When not running the liftfan, the driveshaft could be used for power generation for other things (e.g. DEW / lasers). However, I think losses in mechanical <> electric power conversion ( turbine -> electric and electric -> liftfan) would mean the F-35BE would lose its vertical landing capability as there would not be enough lift force produced by an electric fan. I'd be happy to be wrong, though.

On the other hand... if one could selectively either power the liftfan -- OR -- a monster generator, then you could still have your STOVL F-35BL while powering a laser or other DEWs when not in Mode 4 (i.e. STO or VL mode). I think this would be possible by NOT engaging the clutch for the liftfan, but rather directing or extracting the mechanical energy of the driveshaft via a generator.

Electric power is created by spinning magnets inside a magnetic field, correct? If magnets (maybe even electromagnets?) could be wrapped around the spinning drive shaft, then an outer ring of magnets (also maybe electromagnets?) "turned on" or mechanically actuated to close in around the drive shaft... might a compact power generator be (relatively) easily constructed?

I'm just pulling concepts out of my *ss. I dunno if this would work. But the mechanical power seems to be readily available.

One additional note. As Spurts has stated... the F135-PW-600 extracts some 22.5MW of power from the gas turbine. I believe I read recently that LM had demonstrated 39% efficiency with their fibre laser technology. If they can divert all the lift fan power to LANCE or son-of-LANCE... we're looking at on-the-order-of a 10MW laser weapon. A lot of if's in that equation... but that could be HUGE. Yeah, you lose half your engine power while charging for a shot, but in many flight regimes you don't need 100% power, and 40-50% is more than enough. The next 20-30 years may be very interesting.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 19:36
by nutshell
I wonder if the laser package will be an american-only feature. I hope so as I really wouldnt like some random arab country with such a strong capability.

Btw the #roadtoalphabird getting smoother and smoother for the 35!

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 20:52
by archeman
neptune wrote:
steve2267 wrote:I sounds like energy production is not going to be the stumbling block. ....

....Ok? 160kw generator capacity minus the existing design loads does not lend itself to a very powerful laser. There doesn't appear to be ample?? mechanical room internal to the a/c for additional generating capacity. And....please don't advocate the less than stealthy air driven turbines similar to the EA-18G "pods". Capacitive storage in the weapons bays?? :wink:
:shock:


160kw at any given time or total possible?
If you can store that potential up over time, you can then release it in a higher cleaner energy dump.... with losses of course.

Perhaps Flywheel energy storage would fit this application well? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2017, 21:51
by steve2267
Please note that Neptune's earlier post did not properly quote me.

Archeman, in your post, everyting from the "....Ok? 160kw generator capacity..." onward is Neptune, not me.

I contend that the necessary energy can either be extracted via a driveshaft (ala the F135-PW-600) or via new technologies that GE has demonstrated on an F110 (1MW power extracted from high-pressure and low-pressure turbine bleed air).

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 00:57
by spazsinbad
This forum subsection is about F-35 weapons - POLITICS or PREJUDICE belong in other appropriate subsections - if at all.
Lockheed laser to demonstrate “tens of kilowatts” of power
07 Nov 2017 Leigh Giangreco

"Lockheed Martin will demonstrate an airborne laser generating tens of kilowatts of power for the US Air Force Research Laboratory’s podded electric laser concept for fifth- and sixth-generation fighter jets....

...Lockheed is withholding details about the airborne directed energy system. In a 7 November call with reporters, Rob Afzal, senior fellow of laser weapon systems at Lockheed Martin, would not disclose the laser beam’s exact power and which platform is planned for the 2021 test. Afzal mentioned previous comments from AFRL commander Gen Thomas Masiello, who in 2015 expressed interest in a laser generating tens of kilowatts of power....

...“LANCE will represent the next generation of a compact design,” Afzal says. “One of the key reasons we can do this is that the fiber laser technology is very efficient at converting a high power beam and as we make this more compact, we’re generating less heat that other laser technologies that are less efficient do.”

AFRL has stated that SHiELD would be used to attack other aircraft and missiles fired from the air and the ground. When asked whether LANCE could take down missiles in the boost phase, Afzal responded that mission requires a higher power and longer range. “But clearly a high power laser technology would be desirable for that mission,” he says."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -o-442957/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 01:09
by nutshell
No way we can afford to upgrade our 90 F35 with energy weaponry! :mrgreen: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Anyway, it's way too much of a gamechanger; such a tech is like moving from the middleage of air to air combat straight into the industrial revolution.

I think we can pull more then just our weight,as an ally,with just the regular F35 and more refined missiles.

Uk, Australia and Israel are trustworthy too, i'd be fine with that.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 01:39
by nutshell
It has nothing to do with prejudice and politics. It is what it is.

Even if we're one big western family, connections and friendship between countries are different.

There's nothing wrong with that either: UK, US, Australia and Canada have a stronger bind than the US with Italy (mind you, my country) or the US with Germany.

It is also true that a country like Turkey behaved and ACTED in a way that is ambiguous to say the least.

Last but not least we're discussing about the laser technology should or should not be US exclusive.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 01:46
by steve2267
A podded system with tens of kilowatts of power. Sounds like this could be added to different aircraft, so that suggests the host aircraft does not have to provide power? What aircraft are wired to send two times tens of kilowatts of power to external stores station to begin with? So... ram air turbine to generate the power? How many watts do the ram air turbines on Growler (or the old EA-6B) produce? EW is kinda power hungrey, isn't it?

If they can field a podded laser that has power in the tens of kilowatts... I shudder to think what they can do when the start tapping the gas turbine (e.g. GE F110 ~1MW or P&W F135-PW-600 22.5MW) and building the fibre laser into the fuselage...

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 02:22
by wolfpak
Tens of kilowatts is easy assuming you only want pulses at that power level and you use capacitors to hold the energy until you need it. So if you generate for a minute and then discharge 10 kilowatts over 5 seconds you only need to generate in kilowatt level. Remember 1 HP = 745 Watts. So with 40% efficiency and a beam strength of 60 Kilowatts you will need to generate 150 KW or 201 horsepower. A small gas turbine would probably be sufficient. I know there are additional loses but this back-of-the-envelope gives you an idea of the magnitude needed. The larger problem is developing capacitors that can store amount of energy that will give you 150KW when discharged. As for fly wheels won't they contribute to gyroscopic effects on the airframe?

For later marks of the F-35 and 6th Gen airframes the natural thing to do is to incorporate into the spec. of the AETP engine the power level you need for powering the DEW's.

Here's an interesting article on a 65 KW model:

http://www.powermag.com/microturbine-te ... y-matures/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 06:07
by neptune
steve2267 wrote:...If they can field a podded laser that has power in the tens of kilowatts... I shudder to think what they can do when the start tapping the gas turbine (e.g. GE F110 ~1MW or P&W F135-PW-600 22.5MW) and building the fibre laser into the fuselage...


....the pods would give an edge to the teens, as LO is not a requirement but; again that would only be in 10 (2027-ish) or so years (maybe after the teens are after sunset!).
:)

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 16:49
by spazsinbad
Lots of stuff 'bout creatin' 'LECTRICITY in aircraft BUT problems at high altitude above 30,000 feet with 'Corona Effect'.
ANALYSIS: Key challenges in the race to develop hybrid-electric aircraft
21 Nov 2017 Stephen Trimble

"...A new P&W white paper – released exclusively to FlightGlobal – opens a window into a wide-ranging effort over several years to meet the military’s demand for more-electric and all-electric aircraft....

...The most modern US military aircraft already generate and consume vast amounts of electric power on board. Electric charge is used to power increasingly sophisticated sensors, such as active electronically scanned array radars. Electric power serves as a back-up for powering the control surfaces of the Lockheed Martin F-35....

...But US military officials already envision a future fleet of combat aircraft with even greater needs for onboard power. A new class of directed energy weapons, including lasers and high-power microwaves, is emerging as an option for the next generation of manned tactical fighters. So suppliers have to find new and creative waves to generate, store and distribute ever-escalating amounts of electricity, while managing unwelcome by-products such as waste heat.

Meanwhile, the same requirements are pushing existing technology up against the stubborn limits of the laws of physics. Certain phenomena – including the Corona effect which turns air surrounding high-power cables into conductive plasma – threaten to stop the development of highly electrified aircraft from reaching the normal cruising altitudes of today’s jet-powered aircraft. To overcome these and other obstacles to progress, industrial players’ such as UTC’s three-headed internal team made of P&W’s engine expertise, UTC’s electric power expertise and UTRC’s capacity for experimental innovation have made up long-term plans.... [THEN LOTS OF STUFF 'bout DETAILS/ENGINES]

...The biggest obstacle remains the Corona effect. This occurs with power cables charged with extreme voltages at high altitudes. Those conditions mean the air around the cable becomes a conductive plasma, creating the conditions for a dangerous short circuit. Modern aircraft routinely fly at altitudes above 30,000ft where the Corona effect becomes most pronounced. Hybrid electric vehicles will need megawatt powers, meaning they will need to distribute the power from the generator to the motor along cables carrying hundreds of thousands of watts. No solution to the problem yet exists, but lightweight insulation materials may be promising."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... br-443182/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 17:12
by sferrin
spazsinbad wrote:...The biggest obstacle remains the Corona effect. This occurs with power cables charged with extreme voltages at high altitudes. Those conditions mean the air around the cable becomes a conductive plasma, creating the conditions for a dangerous short circuit. Modern aircraft routinely fly at altitudes above 30,000ft where the Corona effect becomes most pronounced. Hybrid electric vehicles will need megawatt powers, meaning they will need to distribute the power from the generator to the motor along cables carrying hundreds of thousands of watts. No solution to the problem yet exists, but lightweight insulation materials may be promising."


Wouldn't something like a shielded cable work? :?:

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 19:23
by botsing
sferrin wrote:Wouldn't something like a shielded cable work? :?:

To a certain extend.

Watch video's like this one to understand the issues with high voltage (even with big insulators):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pTWi8jgqd0

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 00:12
by archeman
sferrin wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:...The biggest obstacle remains the Corona effect. This occurs with power cables charged with extreme voltages at high altitudes. Those conditions mean the air around the cable becomes a conductive plasma, creating the conditions for a dangerous short circuit. Modern aircraft routinely fly at altitudes above 30,000ft where the Corona effect becomes most pronounced. Hybrid electric vehicles will need megawatt powers, meaning they will need to distribute the power from the generator to the motor along cables carrying hundreds of thousands of watts. No solution to the problem yet exists, but lightweight insulation materials may be promising."


Wouldn't something like a shielded cable work? :?:


This Corona effect has always been an issue for radars. That is why they run in sealed pressure controlled boxes.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 00:43
by popcorn
Posted previously on these boards.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aer ... t-anything

Tactical Laser Weapon Module Can Laserify Almost Anything

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 17:52
by markithere
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/air-force- ... er-weapons

I always thought that the B’s body made a perfect place to house a FEL styled laser. Maybe marry FEL with multi levels doing multiples of wave lengths within a combined beam. What laser technologies can be combined?

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 18:08
by sferrin
markithere wrote:https://www.foxnews.com/tech/air-force-sets-sights-on-high-tech-laser-weapons

I always thought that the B’s body made a perfect place to house a FEL styled laser. Maybe marry FEL with multi levels doing multiples of wave lengths within a combined beam. What laser technologies can be combined?


I think you mean SSL not FEL.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 18:23
by markithere
sferrin wrote:
markithere wrote:https://www.foxnews.com/tech/air-force-sets-sights-on-high-tech-laser-weapons

I always thought that the B’s body made a perfect place to house a FEL styled laser. Maybe marry FEL with multi levels doing multiples of wave lengths within a combined beam. What laser technologies can be combined?


I think you mean SSL not FEL.


FEL accelerators can benefit from the circular area in the B where the vertical fan current sits. Would a stacked array of FEL accelerators produce more photons than a tall single accelerator? I have more questions so it looks like I will need to read up more on this technology.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 18:59
by ricnunes
The "Corona Effect":

Image


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 23:51
by glennwhitten
spaz wrote: "The biggest obstacle remains the Corona effect. This occurs with power cables charged with extreme voltages at high altitudes. Those conditions mean the air around the cable becomes a conductive plasma, creating the conditions for a dangerous short circuit. Modern aircraft routinely fly at altitudes above 30,000ft where the Corona effect becomes most pronounced. Hybrid electric vehicles will need megawatt powers, meaning they will need to distribute the power from the generator to the motor along cables carrying hundreds of thousands of watts. No solution to the problem yet exists, but lightweight insulation materials may be promising."

Maybe they discovered the needed cable insulation for the Corona Effect at the University of Melbourne, a ceramic based cable insulator that is heat and fire resistant.

Electrical Cable Triggers Lightweight, Fire-Resistant Cladding Discovery
Tue, 11/20/2018 - 10:40am
by University of Melbourne

A University of Melbourne researcher has led the successful development of an organic, non-combustible and lightweight cladding core - a product that was previously thought to be impossible to create.

Typically, lightweight cladding is made from organic, carbon-based, composite materials like plastic, but these materials by their nature are combustible. Non-combustible materials like steel, ceramic tiles or concrete are much heavier and more expensive to produce and install.

University of Melbourne Fire Engineering Group research leader Kate Nguyen has discovered that the plastic insulation around electrical cables uses tiny ceramic particles that activate and chemically interact with each other, forming and spreading a heat resistant network through the material.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2018, 22:01
by castlebravo
archeman wrote:
sferrin wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:...The biggest obstacle remains the Corona effect. This occurs with power cables charged with extreme voltages at high altitudes. Those conditions mean the air around the cable becomes a conductive plasma, creating the conditions for a dangerous short circuit. Modern aircraft routinely fly at altitudes above 30,000ft where the Corona effect becomes most pronounced. Hybrid electric vehicles will need megawatt powers, meaning they will need to distribute the power from the generator to the motor along cables carrying hundreds of thousands of watts. No solution to the problem yet exists, but lightweight insulation materials may be promising."


Wouldn't something like a shielded cable work? :?:


This Corona effect has always been an issue for radars. That is why they run in sealed pressure controlled boxes.


I suspect they will do the same with tactical laser weapon pods for fighters. They can have enough batteries/capacitors in the sealed pod to to fire it a few times, and then recharge it over time with lower voltage/power from the aircraft.

The "Killacycle" electric drag racing bike got 500+ HP out of a ~200lb lithium battery pack. 500 HP is ~373kw, so that should be good for a ~150kw laser assuming <50% efficiency, and at 9.7kwh of capacity, it would in theory be able to fire the laser for ~90 seconds. It may even be preferable to avoid the complexity of recharging in flight and just put enough battery in the pod to last an entire sortie.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 23:59
by knowan
castlebravo wrote:The "Killacycle" electric drag racing bike got 500+ HP out of a ~200lb lithium battery pack. 500 HP is ~373kw, so that should be good for a ~150kw laser assuming <50% efficiency, and at 9.7kwh of capacity, it would in theory be able to fire the laser for ~90 seconds. It may even be preferable to avoid the complexity of recharging in flight and just put enough battery in the pod to last an entire sortie.


Don't forget cooling; the energy that isn't going into the laser shot is almost entirely waste heat, which has to be dealt with somehow.
That will likely be some sort of active cooling system; if the laser is an isolated pod, that will cut into the power available for the laser.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2018, 05:16
by element1loop
Why DARPA thinks air assets will be the last to get laser weapons

By: Aaron Mehta

Dec 20, 2018

WASHINGTON – It’s been a running joke inside the defense technology community for years: lasers are the weapons of the future ... and always will be. But while experts have long predicted laser systems, also known as directed energy weapons, are juuuust over the horizon, more and more technology experts have said they believe lasers are truly in the realm of the possible in the near-term for the Pentagon. Which raises the question: who gets them first?

Speaking at the Washington Post earlier this month, Steven Walker, director of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, said, if possible, the Air Force would love to get directed energy up and running tomorrow. "I never met a four-star general who didn’t want a laser on his airplane,” Walker said. “It would be really neat. That would be a really neat technology and capability.” But weight remains an issue, Walker warned. Quite simply, the technologies needed to support a laser weapon are heavy. “All this power generation and cooling adds up in terms of weight," he said. As a result, “I think airplanes will probably be the last, sort of, application of it, but I think we’re very close to having a ship-based capability,” he said. “The Navy’s done some demonstrations in that space. I think ground capability, lasers from the ground, from trucks, are being worked pretty heavily. And those will be closer than a laser on the airplane.


https://www.c4isrnet.com/electronic-war ... r-weapons/

--

This does not mean you can't initially put four smaller and lighter lasers on to a flight of four fighters, and have them surround and mutually attack the same target at the same time, coordinated via data-fusion pointing, timing and coop-engagement.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2018, 02:55
by squirrelshoes
That makes sense.

I think USAF will be the last of the three major branches to have a combat laser deployed, and when they do the first platform won't be on a fighter it'll be an AC-130. Seems they are always fiddling around with the weapon load of AC-130s and JSOC is often a bit quicker to adapt and try new things. AC-130 seems like a natural platform since it can handle the weight, operates at lower altitudes, and is definitely something that could make use of unlimited magazine that comes with DEWs.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2018, 03:58
by element1loop
squirrelshoes wrote:That makes sense.

I think USAF will be the last of the three major branches to have a combat laser deployed, and when they do the first platform won't be on a fighter it'll be an AC-130. Seems they are always fiddling around with the weapon load of AC-130s and JSOC is often a bit quicker to adapt and try new things. AC-130 seems like a natural platform since it can handle the weight, operates at lower altitudes, and is definitely something that could make use of unlimited magazine that comes with DEWs.


A heavy experimental DEW has already been installed and tested in the weapon bay of an Avenger drone. No particular need to get humans that close. In fact you could put a similar system into the bay of an MQ-25 Stingray.