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Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 00:57
by spazsinbad
This forum subsection is about F-35 weapons - POLITICS or PREJUDICE belong in other appropriate subsections - if at all.
Lockheed laser to demonstrate “tens of kilowatts” of power
07 Nov 2017 Leigh Giangreco

"Lockheed Martin will demonstrate an airborne laser generating tens of kilowatts of power for the US Air Force Research Laboratory’s podded electric laser concept for fifth- and sixth-generation fighter jets....

...Lockheed is withholding details about the airborne directed energy system. In a 7 November call with reporters, Rob Afzal, senior fellow of laser weapon systems at Lockheed Martin, would not disclose the laser beam’s exact power and which platform is planned for the 2021 test. Afzal mentioned previous comments from AFRL commander Gen Thomas Masiello, who in 2015 expressed interest in a laser generating tens of kilowatts of power....

...“LANCE will represent the next generation of a compact design,” Afzal says. “One of the key reasons we can do this is that the fiber laser technology is very efficient at converting a high power beam and as we make this more compact, we’re generating less heat that other laser technologies that are less efficient do.”

AFRL has stated that SHiELD would be used to attack other aircraft and missiles fired from the air and the ground. When asked whether LANCE could take down missiles in the boost phase, Afzal responded that mission requires a higher power and longer range. “But clearly a high power laser technology would be desirable for that mission,” he says."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -o-442957/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 01:09
by nutshell
No way we can afford to upgrade our 90 F35 with energy weaponry! :mrgreen: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Anyway, it's way too much of a gamechanger; such a tech is like moving from the middleage of air to air combat straight into the industrial revolution.

I think we can pull more then just our weight,as an ally,with just the regular F35 and more refined missiles.

Uk, Australia and Israel are trustworthy too, i'd be fine with that.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 01:39
by nutshell
It has nothing to do with prejudice and politics. It is what it is.

Even if we're one big western family, connections and friendship between countries are different.

There's nothing wrong with that either: UK, US, Australia and Canada have a stronger bind than the US with Italy (mind you, my country) or the US with Germany.

It is also true that a country like Turkey behaved and ACTED in a way that is ambiguous to say the least.

Last but not least we're discussing about the laser technology should or should not be US exclusive.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 01:46
by steve2267
A podded system with tens of kilowatts of power. Sounds like this could be added to different aircraft, so that suggests the host aircraft does not have to provide power? What aircraft are wired to send two times tens of kilowatts of power to external stores station to begin with? So... ram air turbine to generate the power? How many watts do the ram air turbines on Growler (or the old EA-6B) produce? EW is kinda power hungrey, isn't it?

If they can field a podded laser that has power in the tens of kilowatts... I shudder to think what they can do when the start tapping the gas turbine (e.g. GE F110 ~1MW or P&W F135-PW-600 22.5MW) and building the fibre laser into the fuselage...

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 02:22
by wolfpak
Tens of kilowatts is easy assuming you only want pulses at that power level and you use capacitors to hold the energy until you need it. So if you generate for a minute and then discharge 10 kilowatts over 5 seconds you only need to generate in kilowatt level. Remember 1 HP = 745 Watts. So with 40% efficiency and a beam strength of 60 Kilowatts you will need to generate 150 KW or 201 horsepower. A small gas turbine would probably be sufficient. I know there are additional loses but this back-of-the-envelope gives you an idea of the magnitude needed. The larger problem is developing capacitors that can store amount of energy that will give you 150KW when discharged. As for fly wheels won't they contribute to gyroscopic effects on the airframe?

For later marks of the F-35 and 6th Gen airframes the natural thing to do is to incorporate into the spec. of the AETP engine the power level you need for powering the DEW's.

Here's an interesting article on a 65 KW model:

http://www.powermag.com/microturbine-te ... y-matures/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2017, 06:07
by neptune
steve2267 wrote:...If they can field a podded laser that has power in the tens of kilowatts... I shudder to think what they can do when the start tapping the gas turbine (e.g. GE F110 ~1MW or P&W F135-PW-600 22.5MW) and building the fibre laser into the fuselage...


....the pods would give an edge to the teens, as LO is not a requirement but; again that would only be in 10 (2027-ish) or so years (maybe after the teens are after sunset!).
:)

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 16:49
by spazsinbad
Lots of stuff 'bout creatin' 'LECTRICITY in aircraft BUT problems at high altitude above 30,000 feet with 'Corona Effect'.
ANALYSIS: Key challenges in the race to develop hybrid-electric aircraft
21 Nov 2017 Stephen Trimble

"...A new P&W white paper – released exclusively to FlightGlobal – opens a window into a wide-ranging effort over several years to meet the military’s demand for more-electric and all-electric aircraft....

...The most modern US military aircraft already generate and consume vast amounts of electric power on board. Electric charge is used to power increasingly sophisticated sensors, such as active electronically scanned array radars. Electric power serves as a back-up for powering the control surfaces of the Lockheed Martin F-35....

...But US military officials already envision a future fleet of combat aircraft with even greater needs for onboard power. A new class of directed energy weapons, including lasers and high-power microwaves, is emerging as an option for the next generation of manned tactical fighters. So suppliers have to find new and creative waves to generate, store and distribute ever-escalating amounts of electricity, while managing unwelcome by-products such as waste heat.

Meanwhile, the same requirements are pushing existing technology up against the stubborn limits of the laws of physics. Certain phenomena – including the Corona effect which turns air surrounding high-power cables into conductive plasma – threaten to stop the development of highly electrified aircraft from reaching the normal cruising altitudes of today’s jet-powered aircraft. To overcome these and other obstacles to progress, industrial players’ such as UTC’s three-headed internal team made of P&W’s engine expertise, UTC’s electric power expertise and UTRC’s capacity for experimental innovation have made up long-term plans.... [THEN LOTS OF STUFF 'bout DETAILS/ENGINES]

...The biggest obstacle remains the Corona effect. This occurs with power cables charged with extreme voltages at high altitudes. Those conditions mean the air around the cable becomes a conductive plasma, creating the conditions for a dangerous short circuit. Modern aircraft routinely fly at altitudes above 30,000ft where the Corona effect becomes most pronounced. Hybrid electric vehicles will need megawatt powers, meaning they will need to distribute the power from the generator to the motor along cables carrying hundreds of thousands of watts. No solution to the problem yet exists, but lightweight insulation materials may be promising."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... br-443182/

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 17:12
by sferrin
spazsinbad wrote:...The biggest obstacle remains the Corona effect. This occurs with power cables charged with extreme voltages at high altitudes. Those conditions mean the air around the cable becomes a conductive plasma, creating the conditions for a dangerous short circuit. Modern aircraft routinely fly at altitudes above 30,000ft where the Corona effect becomes most pronounced. Hybrid electric vehicles will need megawatt powers, meaning they will need to distribute the power from the generator to the motor along cables carrying hundreds of thousands of watts. No solution to the problem yet exists, but lightweight insulation materials may be promising."


Wouldn't something like a shielded cable work? :?:

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 19:23
by botsing
sferrin wrote:Wouldn't something like a shielded cable work? :?:

To a certain extend.

Watch video's like this one to understand the issues with high voltage (even with big insulators):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pTWi8jgqd0

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 00:12
by archeman
sferrin wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:...The biggest obstacle remains the Corona effect. This occurs with power cables charged with extreme voltages at high altitudes. Those conditions mean the air around the cable becomes a conductive plasma, creating the conditions for a dangerous short circuit. Modern aircraft routinely fly at altitudes above 30,000ft where the Corona effect becomes most pronounced. Hybrid electric vehicles will need megawatt powers, meaning they will need to distribute the power from the generator to the motor along cables carrying hundreds of thousands of watts. No solution to the problem yet exists, but lightweight insulation materials may be promising."


Wouldn't something like a shielded cable work? :?:


This Corona effect has always been an issue for radars. That is why they run in sealed pressure controlled boxes.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 00:43
by popcorn
Posted previously on these boards.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/aer ... t-anything

Tactical Laser Weapon Module Can Laserify Almost Anything

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 17:52
by markithere
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/air-force- ... er-weapons

I always thought that the B’s body made a perfect place to house a FEL styled laser. Maybe marry FEL with multi levels doing multiples of wave lengths within a combined beam. What laser technologies can be combined?

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 18:08
by sferrin
markithere wrote:https://www.foxnews.com/tech/air-force-sets-sights-on-high-tech-laser-weapons

I always thought that the B’s body made a perfect place to house a FEL styled laser. Maybe marry FEL with multi levels doing multiples of wave lengths within a combined beam. What laser technologies can be combined?


I think you mean SSL not FEL.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 18:23
by markithere
sferrin wrote:
markithere wrote:https://www.foxnews.com/tech/air-force-sets-sights-on-high-tech-laser-weapons

I always thought that the B’s body made a perfect place to house a FEL styled laser. Maybe marry FEL with multi levels doing multiples of wave lengths within a combined beam. What laser technologies can be combined?


I think you mean SSL not FEL.


FEL accelerators can benefit from the circular area in the B where the vertical fan current sits. Would a stacked array of FEL accelerators produce more photons than a tall single accelerator? I have more questions so it looks like I will need to read up more on this technology.

Re: F-35 High Energy Laser

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2018, 18:59
by ricnunes
The "Corona Effect":

Image


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: