F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 17:25
by maus92
Another dense article from DM, best read at the source:

New U.S. Stealth Jet Can’t Fire Its Gun Until 2019
America’s $400 billion Joint Strike Fighter, or F-35, is slated to join fighter squadrons next year—but missing software will render its onboard 25mm cannon useless.
Dave Majumdar | TDB | 12-31-2014

"The Pentagon’s newest stealth jet, the nearly $400 billion Joint Strike Fighter, won’t be able to fire its gun during operational missions until 2019, three to four years after it becomes operational.

Even though the Joint Strike Fighter, or F-35, is supposed to join frontline U.S. Marine Corps fighter squadrons next year and Air Force units in 2016, the jet’s software does not yet have the ability to shoot the onboard 25mm cannon. But even when the jet will be able to shoot its gun, the F-35 barely carries enough ammunition to make the weapon useful...."

"“There will be no gun until [the Joint Strike Fighter’s Block] 3F [software], there is no software to support it now or for the next four-ish years,” said one Air Force official affiliated with the F-35 program. “Block 3F is slated for release in 2019, but who knows how much that will slip?”..."

"Another Air Force official familiar with the F-35 confirmed that the jet won’t have the software to fire its gun until the Block 3F software is released to frontline squadrons sometime in 2019. Neither Lockheed nor the F-35 Joint Program Office responded to inquiries about the status of the jet’s gun.

Right now, the F-35’s software doesn’t support the use of the aircraft’s GAU-22/A four-barreled rotary cannon. The weapon was developed from the U.S. Marine Corps’ AV-8B Harrier II jump-jet’s GAU-12/U cannon, but it has one fewer barrel and weighs less.

[...]

Source: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -2019.html

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 17:33
by luke_sandoz
Lotsa Air Force pilots with no names but lotsa opinions.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 18:05
by sprstdlyscottsmn
And not one of them is an F-35 pilot.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 18:31
by XanderCrews
Wait how often are targets being "marked with rockets" right now?

F-35 won't have the gun it doesn't need?

Anywho, no names, no credibility. If they feel this is that big a problem they need to nut up or shut up.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 18:47
by quicksilver
Ho humm... Dave oughta do some research instead of listening to the latest whisperer with an axe to grind.

The gun has been a planned Block 3F capability for a long time. Block 3F Fleet Release is end of 3d quarter/beginning of 4th quarter 2017 -- not 2019.

Here's a link from a PEO SWG brief (see slide 6), but I bet Spaz can find docs going back to 2010 or 2011 refecting same.

download/file.php?id=18234

As I mentioned the other day, it wont be the last time we hear from unnamed "officials" particularly with budget season looming just over the horizon.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 19:45
by arrow-nautics
If there's one thing about maus92 I can appreciate (even though it's partly annoying) is I need not seek out all the negative, mostly foolish news on the JSF since he is diligent in his posting. This way I need not investigate negative articles posted by detractors. Ninety nine percent of the time these posts usually involve old rehashed arguments of myths that have been debunked.

Pathetic critiquing & bad reporting must in turn, logically mean that the critiques are falling on deaf ears & the program is running hot. The hotter it gets, the more nonsensical rhetoric one will encounter. It's as if they have a filing cabinet with 365 different numbered, old argument articles or points of view. So on December 31st, 2014 it's time to rehash the argument from December 31st, 2011....and so on. Expect future criticisms to become even more bizarre & laughable. They're panicking! 8)

1533744_10152941096152177_7081178262745201488_n.jpg

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 20:25
by XanderCrews
maus92 wrote:"“There will be no gun until [the Joint Strike Fighter’s Block] 3F [software], there is no software to support it now or for the next four-ish years,” said one Air Force official affiliated with the F-35 program. “Block 3F is slated for release in 2019, but who knows how much that will slip?”..."


Block3F is slated for 2019? very knowledge, Much authority, Such source. Wow.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 20:26
by XanderCrews
arrow-nautics wrote:If there's one thing about maus92 I can appreciate (even though it's partly annoying) is I need not seek out all the negative, mostly foolish news on the JSF since he is diligent in his posting. This way I need not investigate negative articles posted by detractors. Ninety nine percent of the time these posts usually involve old rehashed arguments of myths that have been debunked.

Pathetic critiquing & bad reporting must in turn, logically mean that the critiques are falling on deaf ears & the program is running hot. The hotter it gets, the more nonsensical rhetoric one will encounter. It's as if they have a filing cabinet with 365 different numbered, old argument articles or points of view. So on December 31st, 2014 it's time to rehash the argument from December 31st, 2011....and so on. Expect future criticisms to become even more bizarre & laughable. They're panicking! 8)



Its fun isn't it? :mrgreen: Ever since the F-35 trapped things have become more desperate. Can't wait for the next non story.

FTFA:

“So, about good for one tactical burst,” the first Air Force official said. “Hope you don’t miss.”


Never good to miss during CAS as it is...

And while that gun-pod version for the Navy and Marines carries slightly more ammo, with 220 rounds, some in the military are complaining that it’s not enough. “So, about good for one tactical burst,” the first Air Force official said. “Hope you don’t miss.”

The lack of a cannon is a particular problem, as the F-35 is being counted on to help out infantrymen under fire. (This is known as close air support, or CAS, in military jargon.) The F-35 will lack the ability to mark a target or attack enemy forces in “danger close” situations, said one highly experienced Air Force fighter pilot.

“Lack of forward firing ordnance in a CAS supporting aircraft is a major handicap,” he added. “CAS fights are more fluid than air interdiction, friendlies and targets move... Oftentimes quickly. The...

...“GPS-guided munitions with long times of fall are useless when the ground commander doesn’t know exactly where the fire is coming from, or is withdrawing and the enemy is pursuing,” said another Air Force fighter pilot. “GPS munitions are equally useless when dropped from an aircraft when the pilot has near zero ability to track the battle with his own eyes.”



Hey look everyone! A-10 talking points! Guns, altitude, CAS, and visual acquisition... Marking rockets are new... OA-10?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 20:54
by arrow-nautics
“So, about good for one tactical burst,” the first Air Force official said. “Hope you don’t miss.”


Never good to miss during CAS as it is...


http://aviationweek.com/awin/10-victim- ... lt-choices

And out of no where. Bill Sweetman shocks me. He's never been a JSF fan, far from it & in no way does he even endorse it here. But here he's dissing the A-10 somewhat. By not advocating the A-10 on CAS he's inadvertently endorsing the JSF, not willingly but by default. After all, get the A-10 out of the way & the USAF brass get what they want - more F-35A engineers & maintenance staff. Bill, by design or not; IS WRITING THIS??? Wait, what?

I hate to say it but Sweetman is right (Sorry maus92 :devil: ). There's NO scenario that calls for 240 Warthogs, JSF or not.

10603693_10152921749957177_6077968039562319804_n.jpg

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 21:31
by quicksilver
“So, about good for one tactical burst,” the first Air Force official said. “Hope you don’t miss.”

220 rounds in one burst? Yee-ha cowboy...only if you're John Wayne-ing it.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 21:48
by neurotech
arrow-nautics wrote:
“So, about good for one tactical burst,” the first Air Force official said. “Hope you don’t miss.”


Never good to miss during CAS as it is...


http://aviationweek.com/awin/10-victim- ... lt-choices

And out of no where. Bill Sweetman shocks me. He's never been a JSF fan, far from it & in no way does he even endorse it here. But here he's dissing the A-10 somewhat. By not advocating the A-10 on CAS he's inadvertently endorsing the JSF, not willingly but by default. After all, get the A-10 out of the way & the USAF brass get what they want - more F-35A engineers & maintenance staff. Bill, by design or not; IS WRITING THIS??? Wait, what?

I hate to say it but Sweetman is right (Sorry maus92 :devil: ). There's NO scenario that calls for 240 Warthogs, JSF or not.

Two major issues at play here. The reason the USAF suggests retiring the A-10 is that there is a whole logistics infrastructure to support it. eg. TF-34 engines are now only the A-10. Having said that, they could probably come up with a way to convert CF-34 civilian engines to TF-34 standard for use on the A-10. I'm sure they could also outsource the maintenance to another operator of the CF-34 engine.

Personally, I think that downsizing the A-10s in service, but keeping the jet operational is justified. The USAF did wonders with 64 F-117s so drawing down from 240 A-10s and still being able to pack a punch.

The larger issue is that the F-35A should have a working gun, even if its in a pod. Claiming a "software" limitation is restricting gun usage is bulls**t. More likely, they don't have budget and schedule to validate the gun software before then.

If the legendary Gen. Robin Olds (or any Expeditionary Wing commander with pull at the Pentagon) really wanted a working gun in a combat deployable F-35A for the USAF, it would happen in weeks not years. Software would get written real fast.

The Pentagon has rushed several weapon systems into combat recently (non-publicly) mainly involving UAV/UCAV/ELINT activities.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 23:47
by count_to_10
You could re-engine the A-10 to some currently in production private jet engine in order to reduce operational cost (and maybe even give it some of the thrust it is lacking), but that would be yet another investment in an aircraft that is going to be retired very soon regardless. The only real reason to keep the A-10 is that doing so makes use of a sunk cost: sinking even more cost into it kind of defeats the purpose.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2014, 23:49
by KamenRiderBlade
Yeah, if software is the limitation, then it could get done in weeks.

It's a matter of budget, priorities, and testing schedule.

But if the only hold back is software for the internal gun, then it's not that big of an issue IMO.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 00:13
by neurotech
count_to_10 wrote:You could re-engine the A-10 to some currently in production private jet engine in order to reduce operational cost (and maybe even give it some of the thrust it is lacking), but that would be yet another investment in an aircraft that is going to be retired very soon regardless. The only real reason to keep the A-10 is that doing so makes use of a sunk cost: sinking even more cost into it kind of defeats the purpose.

Engine maintenance is a key part of aircraft logistics, and the CF34 engine (TF34 is military version) is widely used in regional and business jets. The USAF could get surplus CF34 engines relatively cheaply and get them overhauled by civilians pretty easily. This would reduce costs, especially with a reduced fleet size.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 00:41
by marauder2048
I seriously doubt that software development is on the critical path to cannon employment. Rather, I suspect the qualification of the new ammo (25mm APEX) along with adequate time to accumulate sufficient live and inert rounds for testing and training is the bottleneck.

Here's the schedule for 25mm APEX as of mid-2014. Note, there are other 25mm cannon rounds that have been proposed for the GAU-22 including an advanced, non-explosive Tungsten-cored round from GD-OTS (the GAU-22's OEM).

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 01:49
by luke_sandoz
Wait until he finds out Block 3F is scheduled for delivery in 2017. All his nameless Air Force experts are hung up on 2019 for some odd reason. Maybe it just sounds more dramatic if you add a couple of years to the schedule date.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 03:11
by SpudmanWP
I think he is hung up on 2019 being the IOC date for Block 3F.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 06:22
by lookieloo
maus92 wrote:Another dense article from DM, best read at the source:
I'm starting to wonder if you aren't a LM provocateur sent to make JSF criticism look as idiotic as possible. :?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 17:47
by sferrin
"Oh ma Gerd, oh ma gerd, the sky is fallin' the sky is fallin'. . ."

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 18:04
by sferrin
XanderCrews wrote:“So, about good for one tactical burst,” the first Air Force official said. “Hope you don’t miss.”

Never good to miss during CAS as it is...

And while that gun-pod version for the Navy and Marines carries slightly more ammo, with 220 rounds, some in the military are complaining that it’s not enough. “So, about good for one tactical burst,” the first Air Force official said. “Hope you don’t miss.”

The lack of a cannon is a particular problem, as the F-35 is being counted on to help out infantrymen under fire. (This is known as close air support, or CAS, in military jargon.) The F-35 will lack the ability to mark a target or attack enemy forces in “danger close” situations, said one highly experienced Air Force fighter pilot.

“Lack of forward firing ordnance in a CAS supporting aircraft is a major handicap,” he added. “CAS fights are more fluid than air interdiction, friendlies and targets move... Oftentimes quickly. The...

...“GPS-guided munitions with long times of fall are useless when the ground commander doesn’t know exactly where the fire is coming from, or is withdrawing and the enemy is pursuing,” said another Air Force fighter pilot. “GPS munitions are equally useless when dropped from an aircraft when the pilot has near zero ability to track the battle with his own eyes.”


Hey look everyone! A-10 talking points! Guns, altitude, CAS, and visual acquisition... Marking rockets are new... OA-10?


What's funny (and that they're completely oblivious to) is that the F-35 has more ammo than the Mig-29, Su-27, Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen. Whoops. I guess those all suck too. :lmao: Come to think of it, the A-10 has less ammo than the F-111 had so I guess that would make the A-10 inferior to the F-111 in CAS.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 18:42
by XanderCrews
lookieloo wrote:
maus92 wrote:Another dense article from DM, best read at the source:
I'm starting to wonder if you aren't a LM provocateur sent to make JSF criticism look as idiotic as possible. :?


What a plot twist! :devil:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 18:42
by cantaz
quicksilver wrote:“So, about good for one tactical burst,” the first Air Force official said. “Hope you don’t miss.”

220 rounds in one burst? Yee-ha cowboy...only if you're John Wayne-ing it.


Yeah, that seemed excessive. If this guy is for real, he might be from the A-10 community and now he's just being subversive within the program.

I think APKWS will get UAI and end up on everything eventually.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 19:19
by madrat
In the meanwhile can't they certify the 20mm pod? Sure it's not stealth, but a CAS configuration isn't exactly optimized for stealth.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 19:51
by KamenRiderBlade
madrat wrote:In the meanwhile can't they certify the 20mm pod? Sure it's not stealth, but a CAS configuration isn't exactly optimized for stealth.


Are you talking about the 25 mm gunpod for the B/C models?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 20:05
by count_to_10
The other thing on this is, how long are the F-16 and F-18 going to be around? It's kind of hard to see the F-35 being tasked to do much CAS until either of those is retired, unless it proves to be indispensable in CAS before that time.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 20:28
by neurotech
KamenRiderBlade wrote:
madrat wrote:In the meanwhile can't they certify the 20mm pod? Sure it's not stealth, but a CAS configuration isn't exactly optimized for stealth.


Are you talking about the 25 mm gunpod for the B/C models?

Upthread its been suggested that the 25mm ammo isn't qualified and available yet. I'd believe that.

20mm rounds are pretty much standard in fighter aircraft from F-4 to F-22. They have "electrically operated" 20mm gun pods for light attack aircraft in service, including turboprop. The pods could be fitted to a single engine Cessna 208 (prop. sync required) if needed.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 20:59
by quicksilver
SpudmanWP wrote:I think he is hung up on 2019 being the IOC date for Block 3F.


2019 is not the IOC date for anything except USN/F-35C.

Block 3F Fleet Release is in 2017 (see the link I previously provided).

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 21:15
by SpudmanWP
Note that I said Block 3F IOC, not the F-35's IOC which is 2016 with Block 3i.

Do they even use IOC when referring to a Block that is after the fighter's IOC?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2015, 21:17
by spazsinbad
Everything about IOC is a bit movable according to this document (pointed to earlier by 'zerion'): viewtopic.php?f=57&t=26749&p=283418&hilit=assets#p283418
F-35 Initial Operational Capability
Jun 2013 Report to Congressional Defense Committees

"Executive Summary
Air Force F-35A initial operational capability (IOC) shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 12-24 aircraft, and Airmen are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct basic Close Air Support (CAS), Interdiction, and limited Suppression and Destruction of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD/DEAD) operations in a contested environment. Based on the current F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) schedule, the F-35A will reach the IOC milestone between August 2016 (Objective) and December 2016 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

Marine Corps F-35B IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 10-16 aircraft, and US Marines are trained, manned, and equipped to conduct CAS, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort, and Armed Reconnaissance in concert with Marine Air Ground Task Force resources and capabilities. Based on the current F-35 JPO schedule, the F-35B will reach the IOC milestone between July 2015 (Objective) and December 2015 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

Navy F-35C IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is equipped with 10 aircraft, and Navy personnel are trained, manned and equipped to conduct assigned missions. Based on the current F-35 JPO schedule, the F-35C will reach the IOC milestone between August 2018 (Objective) and February 2019 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience changes or delays, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

Report
United States Air Force F-35A IOC Date and Capabilities:

Air Force F-35A IOC shall be declared when Airmen are trained, manned and equipped to conduct basic CAS, Interdiction, and limited SEAD/DEAD operations in a contested environment. The F-35A shall have the ability to conduct operational missions utilizing system development and demonstration (SDD) program of record weapons and mission systems. The warfighter shall be supported with verified tactics detailing core mission fundamentals. The first Air Force F-35A operational squadron shall have 12-24 primary aircraft and shall be capable of deploying and performing its assigned mission(s). In-place logistics elements shall include personnel, support equipment, spares, munitions, verified technical manuals, and training programs. In-place operational elements shall include pilots, operations support personnel, verified technical manuals, mission qualification training programs, and training devices.

Air Force IOC is capability-based and will be declared when the above conditions are met. If the F-35 Integrated Master Schedule (IMS) Version 7 executes according to plan, Air Force F-35A IOC criteria could be met between August 2016 (Objective) and December 2016 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience additional changes, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

The criteria stated above will provide sufficient initial combat capability for the threat postulated in 2016. However, in order to meet the full spectrum of Joint warfighter requirements in future years, the Air Force will require the enhanced lethality and survivability inherent in Blocks 3F and beyond.

United States Marine Corps F-35B IOC Date and Capabilities:
Marine Corps F-35B IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is trained, manned, and equipped to conduct CAS, Offensive and Defensive Counter Air, Air Interdiction, Assault Support Escort, and Armed Reconnaissance in concert with Marine Air Ground Task Force resources and capabilities. The F-35B shall have the ability to conduct operational missions utilizing SDD program of record weapons and mission systems. The aircraft will be in a Block 2B configuration with the requisite SDD performance envelope and weapon clearances. The first Marine Corps F-35B operational squadron shall have 10-16 primary aircraft and shall be capable of deploying and performing its assigned mission(s). Support and sustainment elements shall include spares, support equipment, tools, technical publications, training programs and devices, and Autonomic Logistic Information System V2.

Marine Corps IOC is capability based and will be declared when the above conditions are met. If the F-35 IMS Version 7 executes according to plan, Marine Corps F-35B IOC criteria could be met between July 2015 (Objective) and December 2015 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience additional changes, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

The criteria stated above will provide sufficient initial combat capability for the threat postulated in 2015. However, in order to meet the full spectrum of Joint warfighter requirements in future years, the Marine Corps will require enhanced lethality and survivability inherent in Blocks 3F and beyond.

United States Navy F-35C IOC Date and Capabilities:
Navy F-35C IOC shall be declared when the first operational squadron is manned, trained, and equipped to conduct assigned missions. The F-35C shall have the ability to conduct operational missions utilizing SDD program of record weapons and mission systems. The aircraft will be in a Block 3F configuration with the requisite SDD performance envelope and weapon clearances. The first Navy F-35C operational squadron shall have 10 primary aircraft and shall be capable of performing its assigned mission(s). Support and sustainment elements shall include spares, support equipment, tools, technical publications, training programs and devices, Autonomic Logistic Information System V2, and completion of ship qualifications and certifications to meet Commander, Naval Air System Command (NAVAIRSYSCOM) requirements to deploy aboard aircraft carriers.

Navy IOC is capability based and will be declared when the above conditions are met. If the F-35 IMS Version 7 executes according to plan, Navy F-35C IOC criteria could be met between August 2018 (Objective) and February 2019 (Threshold). Should capability delivery experience additional changes, this estimate will be revised appropriately.

The criteria stated above will provide sufficient initial combat capability for the threat postulated in 2018. However, in order to meet the full spectrum of Joint warfighter requirements in future years, the Navy will require enhanced lethality and survivability inherent in Blocks 3F and beyond."

Source: https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/down ... _final.pdf (128Kb)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2015, 00:13
by quicksilver
There are no separate IOCs for 3F.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2015, 00:31
by SpudmanWP
My question is what do they they call it when a new block goes operational?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2015, 01:28
by quicksilver
"Fleet Release"

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2015, 04:31
by SpudmanWP
Then 3F Fleet release is 2017.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2015, 05:52
by spazsinbad
This graphic is from: Australian 2013–14 Major Projects Report 17 Dec 2014 F-35 Section pp 183-184

PDF of the 14 F-35 relevant pages attached now from:

http://www.anao.gov.au/~/media/Files/Au ... 015_14.pdf (9Mb)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 09:53
by thomonkey
this daily beast article is being picked up by a ton of news sites. telegraph, rt, business insider others.

they all basically just copy the article from the daily beast. People really must hate the f35 if they swallow this crap so easily. :doh: :bang:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 14:30
by quicksilver
Actually, for those entities it is just a more modern version of tabloid journalism. A couple editorial maxims in-play -- "controversy sells" and "if it bleeds, it leads" for the purpose of generating website hits.

Why? Because thats how they sell ads. Doesn't have to be credible...just plausible.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 15:18
by count_to_10
thomonkey wrote:this daily beast article is being picked up by a ton of news sites. telegraph, rt, business insider others.

they all basically just copy the article from the daily beast. People really must hate the f35 if they swallow this crap so easily. :doh: :bang:

I expected better from the Telegraph and Business Insider, but this is the kind of thing that RT would originate, never mind copying it once it's out there.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 19:25
by alloycowboy
Question, how does the F-35 aim its gun without a gunsight?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 19:30
by alloycowboy
Question, how does the F-35 aim its gun without a gunsight?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 19:31
by quicksilver
Who said it didn't have a gunsight?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 20:07
by cantaz
alloycowboy wrote:Question, how does the F-35 aim its gun without a gunsight?


Virtual HUD within the HMDS. Remember, to fly the airplane, the pilot still needs certain symbologies that are always referenced to the heading of the aircraft, i.e. aircraft nose position, displaying positive and negative changes in aircraft pitch. When the gun is selected, the HMDS just displays some extra symbols when the pilot is looking in that direction.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 21:27
by spazsinbad

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 23:05
by alloycowboy
Thanks for the info Spaz, but given the complexity of programming a gun sight so it projects accurately onto the Helmet mounted display I think the 2019 date may me more realistic from an engineering scheduling point of view. This is not an easy engineering problem.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 23:12
by sferrin
alloycowboy wrote:Thanks for the info Spaz, but given the complexity of programming a gun sight so it projects accurately onto the Helmet mounted display I think the 2019 date may me more realistic from an engineering scheduling point of view. This is not an easy engineering problem.


I wouldn't think it would be significantly more difficult than projecting it on a HUD. Sure, you have to adjust for head position but that would be about it. It's not like there's a hard, fixed optical path between a fixed gun sight somewhere on an F-16 and its HUD. Come to think of it it would be exactly like projecting it on a HUD because you wouldn't want the sight reticle to move across the visor, you'd want it fixed in place.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2015, 23:34
by quicksilver
alloycowboy wrote:Thanks for the info Spaz, but given the complexity of programming a gun sight so it projects accurately onto the Helmet mounted display I think the 2019 date may me more realistic from an engineering scheduling point of view. This is not an easy engineering problem.


Four years? Based on what? C'mon man.

AG reticle is just a trig calculation. AA reticle more complex but no more so than what has to occur with legacy combiner. Helmet tracking they've already surmounted with the DAS projection, not to mention the fact that they used the thing to land on a ship at night... 8)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2015, 00:34
by cantaz
alloycowboy wrote:Thanks for the info Spaz, but given the complexity of programming a gun sight so it projects accurately onto the Helmet mounted display I think the 2019 date may me more realistic from an engineering scheduling point of view. This is not an easy engineering problem.


With all due respect, that's nonsense. The most precise marker in the entire HMDS is velocity vector/flight path vector/where the nose is pointed, which is displayed well enough to land the aircraft on a carrier at night. The gunsight pip builds off that existing vector.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2015, 01:03
by marauder2048
quicksilver wrote:
alloycowboy wrote:Thanks for the info Spaz, but given the complexity of programming a gun sight so it projects accurately onto the Helmet mounted display I think the 2019 date may me more realistic from an engineering scheduling point of view. This is not an easy engineering problem.


Four years? Based on what? C'mon man.

AG reticle is just a trig calculation. AA reticle more complex but no more so than what has to occur with legacy combiner. Helmet tracking they've already surmounted with the DAS projection, not to mention the fact that they used the thing to land on a ship at night... 8)


CONOPS for F-35 CAS w/cannon consist of a high angle strafe at 30 - 45 degrees @ 9000 ft of slant range.

The minimum dispersion requirements for the F-35's gun system (cannon, round, fire control/avionics) are extremely exacting: < 3.1 mrad (i.e. 80% of the rounds fall within a circle of 27ft. radius at slant range ).

The cannon itself contributes about 1.4 mrad and there has to be a new round introduced because none of the partners (with one exception) will accept a Depleted Uranium round and DU rounds aren't likely to be lethal to infantry.

Then there's the requirement for three operationally effective passes with the cannon. Meeting that and the dispersion reqs and the Pk reqs (which necessitated a large round which in turn limits ammo capacity) requires an automatic employment mode where the pilot places the HMD boresight on the ground target (or slews the sensor suite there) and the avionics then provide wind and steering corrections along with "FIRE" cues.

So to review: new tactics, new cannon, new round, new avionics, new aircraft all of which have to come together
to meet exacting requirements in a challenging but essential task that has claimed many (friendly) lives in testing, training and combat.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2015, 06:11
by thepointblank
marauder2048 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:
alloycowboy wrote:Thanks for the info Spaz, but given the complexity of programming a gun sight so it projects accurately onto the Helmet mounted display I think the 2019 date may me more realistic from an engineering scheduling point of view. This is not an easy engineering problem.


Four years? Based on what? C'mon man.

AG reticle is just a trig calculation. AA reticle more complex but no more so than what has to occur with legacy combiner. Helmet tracking they've already surmounted with the DAS projection, not to mention the fact that they used the thing to land on a ship at night... 8)


CONOPS for F-35 CAS w/cannon consist of a high angle strafe at 30 - 45 degrees @ 9000 ft of slant range.

The minimum dispersion requirements for the F-35's gun system (cannon, round, fire control/avionics) are extremely exacting: < 3.1 mrad (i.e. 80% of the rounds fall within a circle of 27ft. radius at slant range ).

The cannon itself contributes about 1.4 mrad and there has to be a new round introduced because none of the partners (with one exception) will accept a Depleted Uranium round and DU rounds aren't likely to be lethal to infantry.

Then there's the requirement for three operationally effective passes with the cannon. Meeting that and the dispersion reqs and the Pk reqs (which necessitated a large round which in turn limits ammo capacity) requires an automatic employment mode where the pilot places the HMD boresight on the ground target (or slews the sensor suite there) and the avionics then provide wind and steering corrections along with "FIRE" cues.

So to review: new tactics, new cannon, new round, new avionics, new aircraft all of which have to come together
to meet exacting requirements in a challenging but essential task that has claimed many (friendly) lives in testing, training and combat.

Yeesh, that's a demanding set of requirements. More accurate than the A-10 from what I'm aware of, and probably more accurate than the teen-series fighters using the M61 Vulcan.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2015, 13:46
by quicksilver
"So to review: new tactics, new cannon, new round, new avionics, new aircraft all of which have to come together
to meet exacting requirements in a challenging but essential task that has claimed many (friendly) lives in testing, training and combat."

Nothing new about high angle strafe. Been done for decades.

GAU-22 is a 4-barreled version of the GAU-12. GAU-12 been around for about 3 decades.

Integration of sensor info into the computed impact point is not new; that too has been done for decades.

May be "overreaching requirements" wrt accuracy and that wouldnt be new either. I no longer keep any error sensitivity tables around so I'm withholding judgment about that one.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2015, 15:46
by count_to_10
Are they finally getting around to implementing the auto-aiming function that was trialed on the F-16. I forget what it was called, but it took over control of the aircraft from the pilot to point the nose precisely were it needed to be to hit the target. It was supposedly never implemented because the pilots didn't like giving control to the computer.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2015, 18:19
by sferrin
count_to_10 wrote:Are they finally getting around to implementing the auto-aiming function that was trialed on the F-16. I forget what it was called, but it took over control of the aircraft from the pilot to point the nose precisely were it needed to be to hit the target. It was supposedly never implemented because the pilots didn't like giving control to the computer.


Ha, ha. I was wondering the same thing last night. Here's a link to the original thread (and it was on an F-15): Integrated Flight Fire Control System

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 00:26
by alloycowboy
All that is relatively easy compared to coming up with programing for the helmet mounted display so that the projected gun sight is always in the right location relative to the pilots eyes. At the range fighter jets fire from the slightest misalignment means feet off target. Actually now that I think of it would probably be the easiest solution is to have a camera sighted down the gun barrel that would be displayed to the helmet mounted display when the gun is selected.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 00:33
by sferrin
alloycowboy wrote:All that is relatively easy compared to coming up with programing for the helmet mounted display so that the projected gun sight is always in the right location relative to the pilots eyes. At the range fighter jets fire from the slightest misalignment means feet off target. Actually now that I think of it would probably be the easiest solution is to have a camera sighted down the gun barrel that would be displayed to the helmet mounted display when the gun is selected.



What? That's not how HUDs work.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 02:05
by XanderCrews
So when Mujumdar was plying these guys with free drinks and waiting for good sound bytes do you think he prompted them or they just went "freestyle" ??

:|

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 02:35
by newmanfrigan
XanderCrews wrote:So when Mujumdar was plying these guys with free drinks and waiting for good sound bytes do you think he prompted them or they just went "freestyle" ??

:|


Dave M. knows, or could have found out easily, that the real date is 2017. If his "sources" say 2019, they're simply wrong and that doesn't say a lot about their credibility, or Dave's motives.

He must know how 3F is 2017.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 02:50
by bring_it_on
It is much tough to get an exclusive on a pro-F-35 angle then it is to just quote anonymous sources (or worst, make them up) and then be picked up all over the internet. Just google 'Computer glitch prevents US' most advanced F-35 fighter jet'. Before you know it DM is a guest contributor on RT in addition to other ' tabloid' outlets. You can get a dozen tabloid contributors and editors in the room and they won't be able to get their heads around pieces like this

http://www.sldinfo.com/the-f-35-as-a-“flying-sensor-fusion-engine”-positioning-the-fleet-for-“tron”-warfare/

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 06:35
by marauder2048
quicksilver wrote:"So to review: new tactics, new cannon, new round, new avionics, new aircraft all of which have to come together
to meet exacting requirements in a challenging but essential task that has claimed many (friendly) lives in testing, training and combat."

Nothing new about high angle strafe. Been done for decades.



Except most of the guys in combat have been conducting Low Angle Strafes and at very different slant ranges.


quicksilver wrote:GAU-22 is a 4-barreled version of the GAU-12. GAU-12 been around for about 3 decades.


At a minimum there are very different dispersion, power, heat, vibration, EMI, and barrel lifetime requirements
for the GAU-22. Not to mention a very different installation on the CTOL version.



quicksilver wrote:Integration of sensor info into the computed impact point is not new; that too has been done for decades.


Sure. It's integration work at this point which relies on round, range and test asset availability.

quicksilver wrote:May be "overreaching requirements" wrt accuracy and that wouldnt be new either. I no longer keep any error sensitivity tables around so I'm withholding judgment about that one.


No doubt: the GAU-12 had about 29 pages of specifications vs. 91 pages for the GAU-22.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 07:13
by alloycowboy
sferrin wrote:
alloycowboy wrote:All that is relatively easy compared to coming up with programing for the helmet mounted display so that the projected gun sight is always in the right location relative to the pilots eyes. At the range fighter jets fire from the slightest misalignment means feet off target. Actually now that I think of it would probably be the easiest solution is to have a camera sighted down the gun barrel that would be displayed to the helmet mounted display when the gun is selected.



What? That's not how HUDs work.


The F-35 doesn't have a HUD, that is what makes it so difficult for the gunsight.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 08:28
by thepointblank
marauder2048 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:"So to review: new tactics, new cannon, new round, new avionics, new aircraft all of which have to come together
to meet exacting requirements in a challenging but essential task that has claimed many (friendly) lives in testing, training and combat."

Nothing new about high angle strafe. Been done for decades.



Except most of the guys in combat have been conducting Low Angle Strafes and at very different slant ranges.


quicksilver wrote:GAU-22 is a 4-barreled version of the GAU-12. GAU-12 been around for about 3 decades.


At a minimum there are very different dispersion, power, heat, vibration, EMI, and barrel lifetime requirements
for the GAU-22. Not to mention a very different installation on the CTOL version.



quicksilver wrote:Integration of sensor info into the computed impact point is not new; that too has been done for decades.


Sure. It's integration work at this point which relies on round, range and test asset availability.

quicksilver wrote:May be "overreaching requirements" wrt accuracy and that wouldnt be new either. I no longer keep any error sensitivity tables around so I'm withholding judgment about that one.


No doubt: the GAU-12 had about 29 pages of specifications vs. 91 pages for the GAU-22.

Question: you mentioned how the F-35 will employ its gun in an air to ground capability. Do you know much about air to air employment? I am imagining that it is very similar to the F-16 AFTI demonstrator where the aircraft could provide course corrections and automatically fire the gun.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 10:32
by lookieloo
XanderCrews wrote:So when Mujumdar was plying these guys with free drinks and waiting for good sound bytes do you think he prompted them or they just went "freestyle" ??:|


There's something I've been thinking about here for awhile... Speaking from personal experience, your typical infantryman isn't exactly a firearms expert, even if they have ample experience in the use of small-arms. Likewise, I'm starting to wonder if most fighter-pilots don't really understand that much about plane-design/airpower.


For example, fighter-pilots got exactly what they wanted in the F-104... How useful did that aircraft prove?

In the end, having the ultimate flying machine doesn't really matter if you don't have the range/payload/systems to accomplish a A2G or escort mission in contested airspace.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2015, 16:01
by cantaz
alloycowboy wrote:The F-35 doesn't have a HUD, that is what makes it so difficult for the gunsight.


Again, the F-35 has a HUD, it just lives inside the HMDS. Some HUD symbologies must appear in the forward quadrant of the cockpit regardless of if they're displayed through a traditional HUD or HMDS. When the pilot looks ahead, at where a traditional HUD would be, the HMDS gives him those symbols.

Display stability with a HMDS is not just a gunsight issue, but applies to all aspects of HMDS operations, which is why there's been so much work to make the helmet better.

The gunsight is building on top of existing features, it's not its own continent of special code. What tracks gun boresight is related to tracking aircraft vector. Computing lead relies on existing sensor and sensor fusion. Displaying gun symbology in a clear and stable manner is leveraging overall HMDS performance.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2015, 01:32
by quicksilver
marauder2048 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:"So to review: new tactics, new cannon, new round, new avionics, new aircraft all of which have to come together
to meet exacting requirements in a challenging but essential task that has claimed many (friendly) lives in testing, training and combat."

Nothing new about high angle strafe. Been done for decades.



Except most of the guys in combat have been conducting Low Angle Strafes and at very different slant ranges.


quicksilver wrote:GAU-22 is a 4-barreled version of the GAU-12. GAU-12 been around for about 3 decades.




At a minimum there are very different dispersion, power, heat, vibration, EMI, and barrel lifetime requirements
for the GAU-22. Not to mention a very different installation on the CTOL version.



quicksilver wrote:Integration of sensor info into the computed impact point is not new; that too has been done for decades.


Sure. It's integration work at this point which relies on round, range and test asset availability.


None of which constitute a training or engineering challenge that will take another four years to complete, and all of which are accounted for in the normal course of program planning and execution.

Do you really think that no one thought of any of these things when they wrote the program plan?? :roll:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2015, 01:55
by spazsinbad
The Making of a Joint Strike Fighter Pilot - Welcome to the fifth generation
Nov 2013 Art Tomassetti Air & Space magazine

“...[F-35s] have no head up displays. Instead, the displays have been integrated with our flight helmets; we now wear a helmet-mounted display (HMD) system. Tiny cameras[?] inside the helmet project data on the visor. In addition to basic flight information—speed, altitude, attitude—the display continuously provides the status of targets, weapons, navigation, threat, and critical aircraft information. The helmet has a built-in night-vision camera and can also display infrared views from cameras mounted outside the aircraft, so when, for example, you look down at the floor of the cockpit, you see the ground below in the visor display.

Most legacy helmet-mounted displays are monocular. The F-35 HMD is binocular. With a monocular system, one eye is giving your brain information from outside the HMD. With a binocular system, your brain gets what your eyes are seeing in the HMD....”

Source: http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... 70321.html

HELM or Lightning Sight
01 Aug 2009 Sydney Carroll

"...Through a night vision camera built into the front of the helmet, the F-35 HMD visor can also display flight and targeting information on top of night vision images. “No helmet provided the combin-ation of night vision and symbology at the same time until now,” explains Beesley. “With legacy sy-stems, pilots have to choose between the two capabilities.” This combination is a huge advantage for F-35 pilots because all night vision devices limit peripheral vision. The symbols help pilots inter-pret more of their environment than night vision capability alone.

For the display to correlate with what direction the pilot is looking, a magnetic field in the cockpit senses the direction the helmet is pointing. A transmitter on the seat emits the field while a receiver on the helmet reads the magnetic flux as it moves in that field. “Most HMD systems require pilots to go through an alignment process before each flight,” explains Beesley. “They may have to realign the system several times during a flight because the systems can drift. This magnetic tracking system makes all the corrections itself, so that we pilots never have to adjust the alignment.”

Additionally, the night vision camera and a day camera right next to it ensure that the images and symbology correctly represent the direction the pilot is looking. “The helmet cameras look out at all times, take a picture of the outside scene, and relate that image to other images from the fixed cam-era on the glareshield to make sure the line of sight is correct,” says Perkins. “If the two images are even a little bit off, the system self-corrects....”

ONE SOURCE of 'Lightning Sight' article now attached from: Lightning Sight Extract pp2 Code One Magn 2009-3prn.pdf (9Mb) http://issuu.com/aviationlive/docs/2009-3

Source: http://www.f35netherlands.nl/f-35-technische-data/helm/ [Looks to be no longer available]
SoGo Here: http://www.codeonemagazine.com/f35_arti ... item_id=12

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2015, 19:55
by marauder2048
quicksilver wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:"So to review: new tactics, new cannon, new round, new avionics, new aircraft all of which have to come together
to meet exacting requirements in a challenging but essential task that has claimed many (friendly) lives in testing, training and combat."

Nothing new about high angle strafe. Been done for decades.



Except most of the guys in combat have been conducting Low Angle Strafes and at very different slant ranges.


quicksilver wrote:GAU-22 is a 4-barreled version of the GAU-12. GAU-12 been around for about 3 decades.




At a minimum there are very different dispersion, power, heat, vibration, EMI, and barrel lifetime requirements
for the GAU-22. Not to mention a very different installation on the CTOL version.



quicksilver wrote:Integration of sensor info into the computed impact point is not new; that too has been done for decades.


Sure. It's integration work at this point which relies on round, range and test asset availability.


None of which constitute a training or engineering challenge that will take another four years to complete, and all of which are accounted for in the normal course of program planning and execution.

Do you really think that no one thought of any of these things when they wrote the program plan?? :roll:



I should have made it clear that I think the 2019 date is total BS as in it's not true. Perhaps it's the upper bound for equipping every bird in the fleet with Block 3. But it doesn't accord with the published schedules for qualifying Nammo's PGU-47/U which will take another 2 years. At that rate, the next Block that it intersects is Block 3.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2015, 20:03
by marauder2048
thepointblank wrote:Question: you mentioned how the F-35 will employ its gun in an air to ground capability. Do you know much about air to air employment? I am imagining that it is very similar to the F-16 AFTI demonstrator where the aircraft could provide course corrections and automatically fire the gun.


That's my impression as well but it may be a bit like the long tortuous development of Auto-GCAS where it
runs up against the pilot's reluctance (sferrin mentioned this up-thread) to relinquish control (especially trigger control) to an automated system during a critical phase of flight.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2015, 01:14
by quicksilver
"I should have made it clear that I think the 2019 date is total BS as in it's not true."

My faith is restored. :wink:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2015, 06:50
by eskodas
“Contrary to the media reporting out there, there’s no gun system software glitches or timeline delays,” said Mike Rein, a company spokesman, by telephone. “The requirement for the gun was established in 2005. It’s always been in the block 3F weapons to be delivered in 2017, not 2019.”

“In 2008, the gun completed all of its ground qualification testing. This year we’re going to do comprehensive flight test out of Edwards, include ground fire tests, muzzle calibration, flight test integration and in-flight operational tests,” Rein said.

Rein also offered a written statement on the Electro-Optical Targeting System, “a proven advance targeting capability.” According to Rein: “EOTS allows F-35 to conduct air-to-air and air-to-surface targeting missions while maintaining the F-35’s VLO [very low observable] profile – a capability that external podded systems simply cannot provide.”

Rein added: As with all development programs, F-35 baseline requirements define the starting place for capabilities that will be evolved and upgraded over the life of the program. There are a range of potential upgrades and enhancements for EOTS that will be implemented by the services and international partners for inclusion in future Block upgrades. Some of the additional capabilities for consideration include items such as Higher Definition Video, longer range target detection and identification, Video Data Link, and Infrared (IR) Marker and Pointer. All of the services and international partners are aware of the block upgrade plan and have endorsed its timeline.


http://blogs.rollcall.com/five-by-five/ ... cted/?dcz=

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2015, 08:07
by quicksilver
Well, well, well...

"Officials" (A-10 guys?) corner Majumdar and feed him this kind of tripe (from the article at the front of this thread) --

“There will be no gun until [the Joint Strike Fighter’s Block] 3F [software], there is no software to support it now or for the next four-ish years,” said one Air Force official affiliated with the F-35 program. “Block 3F is slated for release in 2019, but who knows how much that will slip?”

...and now we learn that there are no such problems.

I'm shocked.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2015, 09:14
by spazsinbad
And what happens to Majumdar credibility?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2015, 15:47
by XanderCrews
quicksilver wrote:Well, well, well...

"Officials" (A-10 guys?) corner Majumdar and feed him this kind of tripe


Yeah poor Dave is just the victim here. :doh:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 00:51
by arrow-nautics
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /21401907/

WASHINGTON — The gun on the F-35 joint strike fighter remains on schedule to go operational in 2017, the Pentagon said Wednesday.

The Daily Beast reported on Dec. 31 that the gun would not be able to be used until 2019, but in a statement F-35 joint program office spokesman Joe DellaVedova described that story as a "misreporting" of the facts.


I suppose the critics next assertion ill be that the Pentagon is lying, right?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 00:53
by spazsinbad
F-35 programme office defends gun and sensor
07 Jan 2014 Stephen Trimble FlightGlobal

"Two critical close air support systems – a 25mm cannon and an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) – will be available on the Lockheed Martin F-35 by 2017 and will meet expectations, say programme officials on 7 January.

The F-35 joint programme office (JPO) defended both systems against what it calls “nameless/sourceless/baseless reporting” in recent weeks, but acknowledged one new development problem for the gun and some operational limitations for the Lockheed-built EOTS sensor.

Contrary to a report that the General Dynamics GAU-22 gun is unable to be fired until 2019, the JPO says it will be delivered when the Block 3F software becomes operational. That delivery date is now scheduled in Fiscal 2017 with aircraft built in the ninth lot of low-rate initial production (LRIP-9).

The JPO says that operators accepted that timeline for the cannon system in 2005. However, in 2005, the Block 3F software was supposed to be first installed on LRIP-5 aircraft delivered in 2013. Software development was subsequently delayed by four years.

Meanwhile, the JPO confirms that laboratory tests last month identified a “minor low-level issue” with the software controlling the gun system. It is scheduled to be fixed this spring with no impact on the fielding schedule two years later, the JPO says.

The JPO also corrected another news report about the EOTS sensor. Contrary to a report in the online Daily Beast, the EOTS will enter service with the ability to transmit still images to joint terminal attack controllers on the ground using the aircraft’s Link-16 transmitter.

At the same time, the JPO concedes that the EOTS will lack several features commonly found on the latest generation of targeting pods carried by fighters the F-35 is replacing. These features include higher definition video, longer range target detection and identification, video data link and an infrared marker and pointer. Customers can add those features in later block upgrades, however, the JPO says.

“As with all development programmes, the F-35 baseline requirements define the starting place for capabilities that will be evolved and upgraded over the life of the programme,” the JPO says."

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... or-407694/

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 01:10
by arrow-nautics
It seemed super obvious The Daily Beast article was a hack job when the writer described the F-35 has to go IOC for `the army` :lmao:

...and maus92 fell for it :lmao:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 02:27
by sferrin
arrow-nautics wrote:It seemed super obvious The Daily Beast article was a hack job when the writer described the F-35 has to go IOC for `the army` :lmao:

...and maus92 fell for it :lmao:


Nobody ever accused the basement dwellers of being intelligent.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 02:36
by KamenRiderBlade
Anybody have a picture of the dad on "The 70's Show" that says 'Dumbass'?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 04:25
by Dragon029
KamenRiderBlade wrote:Anybody have a picture of the dad on "The 70's Show" that says 'Dumbass'?


Search for "Red Forman Dumbass".

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 06:15
by Corsair1963
F-35 Program Office: Gun Remains On Schedule



WASHINGTON — The gun on the F-35 joint strike fighter remains on schedule to go operational in 2017, the Pentagon said Wednesday

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /21401907/

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 06:20
by spazsinbad
And a message from him: [the defensenews post above is on the previous page by 'arrow-nautics' above the photo]
Message from Joe DellaVedova – F-35 JPO Spokesman
07 Jan 2015 JPO

"...The General Dynamics GAU-22 gun system completed its ground qualification testing in July 2008. Comprehensive flight test on the F-35A variant GAU-22 25mm gun system is scheduled to begin mid-year at Edwards AFB, Calif., and will include ground fire tests, muzzle calibration, flight test integration and in-flight operational tests. The 25mm missionized gun pod carried externally, centerline mounted on the F-35B and F-35C also begins testing this year to deliver the 3F full warfighting capability software in 2017....

...Regarding the F-35’s Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), it is the world’s first sensor to combine both air-to-ground and air-to-air infrared search and targeting capability in a very low observable (VLO) platform. EOTS allows the F-35 to conduct air-to-air and air-to-surface targeting missions while maintaining the F-35’s VLO profile – a capability that external podded systems cannot provide.

The F-35 will field with the capability to conduct Close Air Support (CAS) in both uncontested and contested environments

The U.S. Services, led by the U.S. Marine Corps, have held several virtual Close Air Support (CAS) exercises, and by all accounts, the total system including the Radar, Electronic Warfare, and Communication capabilities that will be delivered at the time of Marine Corps Initial Operational Capability (IOC) in July 2015 supports the execution of required CAS missions, particularly in contested environments.

Specifically, for the CAS mission area, this includes transmitting and receiving EOTS (and air to surface radar) still images via Link-16 and Variable Message Format (VMF) data links to and from other entities including Joint Terminal Attack Controllers (JTAC)....

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/message ... -spokesman

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 16:20
by lamoey
F-35 programme office defends gun and sensor
By: Stephen Trimble, Washington DC, Flightglobal.com

Two critical close air support systems – a 25mm cannon and an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) – will be available on the Lockheed Martin F-35 by 2017 and will meet expectations, say programme officials on 7 January.

...

At the same time, the JPO concedes that the EOTS will lack several features commonly found on the latest generation of targeting pods carried by fighters the F-35 is replacing. These features include higher definition video, longer range target detection and identification, video data link and an infrared marker and pointer. Customers can add those features in later block upgrades, however, the JPO says.


More at the jump...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/f-35-programme-office-defends-gun-and-sensor-407694/

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 17:01
by spazsinbad
Same post above - with more quoteable quotes - on previous page here: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=26775&p=283775&hilit=Trimble#p283775

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 19:54
by sferrin
B.S. is over on Secret Projects trying to get all the "gun will be late" posts deleted. :lmao:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 20:21
by bring_it_on
sferrin wrote:B.S. is over on Secret Projects trying to get all the "gun will be late" posts deleted. :lmao:


Take screenshots :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 21:16
by newmanfrigan
sferrin wrote:B.S. is over on Secret Projects trying to get all the "gun will be late" posts deleted. :lmao:



I saw that.

Pathetic!!!!

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 21:16
by sferrin
bring_it_on wrote:
sferrin wrote:B.S. is over on Secret Projects trying to get all the "gun will be late" posts deleted. :lmao:


Take screenshots :mrgreen:


Post #641

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... #msg239545

Notice how "helpful" he's trying to be?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 22:08
by spazsinbad
On page 3 of this thread was a question about vHUD. The picture can be decluttered.
What The F-35 Pilot Sees Through His Helmet Display
http://www.special-ops.org/video-what-t ... t-display/
http://www.special-ops.org/wp-content/u ... fault3.jpg

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 22:38
by arrow-nautics
Here's an apology to maus92. My last post was in the troll category. Still, maus92 is always so down on the JSF with usually no positives coming from him whatsoever. After all, nothing is "all bad" with "no good" especially concerning jet fighters.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 08 Jan 2015, 22:47
by arrow-nautics
Also, if Bill Sweetman frequents this board (I'm sure he does) he might want to take in to account an old phrase that most of us were taught growing up: "Look before you leap"

To Bill = :doh:

:devil:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 00:10
by neptune
OK, so the gun will begin firing in 2017 (2 yrs.), possibly.

I haven't seen any discussion here about the following; .. in the 25mm pod mount on the F-35B and C, if a 360 deg. steerable control were added from the EOTS might it be similiar to the ball turret gunner in the fortresses/ liberators :)

Does a military SME have input in the development of the F-35 EOTS and might that person have access to "all" the development from the 'teens and allied a/c E/O systems that might be integrated into the future of the F-35 EOTS??? :wink:

...not unlike the RAM updates for the F-22. :)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 00:31
by count_to_10
neptune wrote:OK, so the gun will begin firing in 2017 (2 yrs.), possibly.

I haven't seen any discussion here about the following; .. in the 25mm pod mount on the F-35B and C, if a 360 deg. steerable control were added from the EOTS might it be similiar to the ball turret gunner in the fortresses/ liberators :)

Does a military SME have input in the development of the F-35 EOTS and might that person have access to "all" the development from the 'teens and allied a/c E/O systems that might be integrated into the future of the F-35 EOTS??? :wink:

...not unlike the RAM updates for the F-22. :)

There is no way the pod could be made turreted without adding a whole lot of weight, and even then the aerodynamics would be prohibitive.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 00:33
by SpudmanWP
neptune wrote:OK, so the gun will begin firing in 2017 (2 yrs.), possibly.

The gun has been firing on ground test stands for years.

It will begin it's integration into the F-35, including airborne testing this year.

Block 3F, which includes all of the SDD weapons, is schedule to complete testing and be released to the fleet (both Operational and OT&E) in late 2017.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 01:11
by bring_it_on
Folks tend to forget that their beloved Gripen (fancy of certain high profile reporters ;)) isn't intended to get an AESA for another few years while the F-15 has had it since the early 2000's. The Rafale was sent to war without an ability to designate targets using a pod but that was OK despite of older aircraft such as the F-16 having that capability. The F-35 on the other hand can do it from IOC. The typhoon would be very lucky to have a robust A2G capability before the end of 2016 or 2017 and the F-22 still lacks an a2g targeting pod. Yet the F-35 is held to a different standard at IOC even though its not awfully late compared to what the other platforms (particularly the euro birds) took from first flight to IOC.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 03:52
by lookieloo
Dave is already scrambling to spin his own narritive on the utter bull$hit he's been caught spouting.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... um=twitter

It would appear that he's hoping to avoid being cut-out of the industry loop like Sweetman, but is merely digging the hole deeper. My guess is that he'll be reduced to blogging click-bait as well pretty soon.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 04:38
by eskodas
Does anyone have information on block software having to be certified by the services after "Fleet Release", I can only find airworthiness as a certification

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 06:33
by neptune
[quote="count_to_10..There is no way the pod could be made turreted without adding a whole lot of weight, and even then the aerodynamics would be prohibitive.[/quote]

An engineer only loves a challenge! :)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 07:04
by SpudmanWP
ok, let's take a look at the rebuttal of the JPO's smack-down of the original article:

From the Rebuttal
neither the JPO nor Lockheed could dispute a single fact in either Daily Beast report.


Examples from the original article:

Joint Strike Fighter, won’t be able to fire its gun during operational missions until 2019, three to four years after it becomes operational.

Fact: LRIP 9 jets will have Block 3F and will start delivery in early 2017. Because of concurrency, both Operational units and OT&E units will get Block 3F at the same time. The DoD has stated that the F-35 could be used in wartime prior to IOC and since IOC is Block 3i then using a fresh 3F is not out of the question. This all boils down to the fact that the DoD could use an Operational F-35 at Block 3F (with it gun) as soon as 2017.

But even when the jet will be able to shoot its gun, the F-35 barely carries enough ammunition to make the weapon useful.

Fact: The F-35 carries more ammo than any other non-US front-line 4th gen fighter (Mig 29/35, SU 27/30/35, Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen). While the F-15/16/18 carry more, the F-35 uses a 25mm shell as opposed to the 20mm of the F-15/16/18 and that shell is faster and more accurate.

Block 3F is slated for release in 2019

Fact: Block 3F is scheduled for release in 2017


I won't get into what is and in not CAS as that leans towards opinion and not fact, which is what i was covering above.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 07:49
by spazsinbad
UnderSlungSwivelGun:

VMM-365 MV-22 OSPREY with Interim Defensive Weapon System (IDWS)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVoksf_2y5k#t=257

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 08:07
by bring_it_on
Apparently Dave is quite fond of citing anonymous officials "familiar with the matter" ;)

China’s new Shenyang J-31 stealth fighter — making its debut next week at the Zhuhai international airshow — could eventually become more than a match for American stealth fighters in battle, several U.S. military and industry officials told USNI News.

The J-31 is China’s latest crack at developing a modern so-called fifth-generation stealth fighter — equivalent in ability to Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor or F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter.


http://news.usni.org/2014/11/05/u-s-pil ... -f-22-f-35

In particular, the change in UCLASS from a deep strike stealthy penetrator into the current lightly armed intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) focused aircraft was — in large part — to preserve a manned version of the F/A-XX replacement for the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, several Navy, Pentagon and industry sources confirmed to USNI News.


http://news.usni.org/2014/07/31/uclass- ... on-fighter

In his rebuttal to the JPO statement he mentions that he consulted a number of pilots and officials familiar with the program, yet he mentions absolutely nothing that was not already known 4 years ago. Anyone remotely familiar with the program could have written that story and made it sensational so as to meet the criteria for daily beast.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 08:08
by KamenRiderBlade
spazsinbad wrote:UnderSlungSwivelGun:

VMM-365 MV-22 OSPREY with Interim Defensive Weapon System (IDWS)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVoksf_2y5k#t=257


That turret is a work of art IMO.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 08:22
by SpudmanWP
That turret would not function at trans-sonic speeds.. but yes, it's gorgeous.

Although I would have gone with a GAU-19 based system.

Although, I guess if the purpose is area suppression then a 7.62mm based system has a higher ROF and ammo capacity.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 10:57
by popcorn
IIRC some years back they were testing a belly turret gun on the Osprey and the operators were reporting severe cases of vertigo. Curious how they addressed that issue.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 15:58
by spazsinbad
Pentagon: F-35 Gun Will Fire in 2017
08 Jan 2015 Brendan McGarry

"...Comprehensive flight test on the F-35A variant GAU-22 25mm gun system is scheduled to begin mid-year at Edwards AFB, Calif., and will include ground fire tests, muzzle calibration, flight test integration and in-flight operational tests,” he wrote.

The GAU-22/A, a four-barrel version of the 25mm GAU-12/U Equalizer five-barrel cannon found on the Marine Corps’ AV-8B Harrier II jump set, is designed to be internally mounted on the Air Force’s F-35A conventional model of the aircraft and hold 182 rounds. It’s slated to be externally mounted on the Marine Corps’ F-35B jump-jet variant and the Navy’s F-35C aircraft carrier version and hold 220 rounds.

That’s a drop in the bucket compared to the 30mm, seven-barrel GAU-8/A Avenger in the nose of the Cold War-era A-10 Warthog attack aircraft, which holds as many as 1,174 rounds.

But it’s actually more than the capacity of other existing front-line fighters, including the Russian MiG-25 and Eurofighter Typhoon, and enough to perform the close air support mission, according to Dave Stouffer, senior manager of business development at General Dynamics’ Ordnance and Tactical Systems unit.

“I love the A-10, I’m a former infantry guy,” he said in a telephone interview with Military​.com. “No one is going to sit here and say it’s going to be just as good as the A-10.” But, he added, “This 25mm in the Joint Strike Fighter can perform the ground support role … This is a very capable gun system.”

The weapon, one of many slated for the aircraft, is based on a design with a proven track record on both the Harrier and the AC-130 gunship, he said. Linked to the aircraft’s fire control and targeting software, it will fire highly accurate rounds at air-to-ground or air-to-air targets, he said. Also, the exposure point — the time it takes for the pilot to point the plane and its gun at a target — may only last a fraction of a second, translating to nine or 10 bursts of fire, he said.

The company has delivered about 75 of the guns to Lockheed Martin, according to spokeswoman Laurie VanBrocklin. “The weapon systems meet the performance specification of the JSF program and have completed a comprehensive acceptance test,” she said in an e-mail.

Meanwhile, computer lab testing of the 3F software in December revealed “a minor low-level issue with aircraft software that impacted the interface with the gun,” DellaVedova said. “This discovery was part of normal software development and testing and a plan is in place to resolve this issue by spring,” he said. “There is no anticipated impact to scheduled gun testing or fielding.”

Source: http://www.dodbuzz.com/2015/01/08/penta ... e-in-2017/

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 16:09
by mk82
lookieloo wrote:Dave is already scrambling to spin his own narritive on the utter bull$hit he's been caught spouting.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... um=twitter

It would appear that he's hoping to avoid being cut-out of the industry loop like Sweetman, but is merely digging the hole deeper. My guess is that he'll be reduced to blogging click-bait as well pretty soon.


Dave Majumdar can go f**k himself. I suspect that anybody officially involved with the F35 program will just tell him to f**k off from now on whenever he tries to request information from them. Dave should win the Pulitzer Prize for journalism as he made a lot of sh*t up....way to go Dave....you can do it...burn all your bridges to reputable sources.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 16:12
by XanderCrews
Majumdar has doubled down... :doh:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 16:47
by sferrin
XanderCrews wrote:Majumdar has doubled down... :doh:


B.S trying to defend him:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... #msg239655


(Guess they have to stick together- like Thelma and Louise. :lol: )

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 18:15
by KamenRiderBlade
sferrin wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:Majumdar has doubled down... :doh:


B.S trying to defend him:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... #msg239655


(Guess they have to stick together- like Thelma and Louise. :lol: )


When will they drive off the cliff in a convertible?
I can't wait for that moment.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2015, 18:16
by KamenRiderBlade
SpudmanWP wrote:That turret would not function at trans-sonic speeds.. but yes, it's gorgeous.

Although I would have gone with a GAU-19 based system.

Although, I guess if the purpose is area suppression then a 7.62mm based system has a higher ROF and ammo capacity.


I agree, a triple barrel system would've been better IMO, lower the rate of fire so you can increase suppression time.

After a certain point, firing speed just doesn't seem worth it IMO for suppression purposes.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 01:21
by arrow-nautics
bring_it_on wrote:Apparently Dave is quite fond of citing anonymous officials "familiar with the matter" ;)


Hey everyone, listen up - it's Grover!!!!

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 03:54
by bring_it_on
arrow-nautics wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:Apparently Dave is quite fond of citing anonymous officials "familiar with the matter" ;)


Hey everyone, listen up - it's Grover!!!!



He doesn't deal with one lonely source, he deals with " several". :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 04:05
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:Majumdar has doubled down... :doh:


B.S trying to defend him:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... #msg239655


(Guess they have to stick together- like Thelma and Louise. :lol: )


LOL at Bill.

Sweetman loved calling out posters involved in the F-35 program who dare refute him calling them biased and implying they had money to gain by advocating it... Hey doesn't bill write for that publication?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 04:51
by Prinz_Eugn
Yeah, let's quote Wheeler, Dave... is there a rule that after so many years of military aviation reporting you become a moron?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 05:17
by arrow-nautics
Bill is biased in so many ways. He'd call me a fanboy (which is too simplistic a term & juvenile) but I'm aware of legitimate problems with the JSF. I seem to be able to have a convo & admit to glass half full/half empty on many points of the JSF. Bill CANNOT seem to find one positive so here's my counterattack. If I'm a fanboy, he's a TRUE HATER.

And, what do haters do? Haters gonna hate!

GAME OVER!

Go back to bed & get up again! Doesn't pass the laugh or smell test

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 15:49
by bring_it_on
Does anyone have a Pdf of this ?

http://books.google.com/books/about/JSF ... 1kHAAACAAJ

Could make for some interesting convo :)

Edit - Found it ,

http://www.filedropper.com/jsf-arevolution

Making a shibboleth out of airframe commonality may not be sensible. Internally, the JSF airframes are already quite different - although, granted, they can be built on the same production line - and while airframe commonality saves money in production, its impact is relatively small in service. The big savings in life-cycle cost, including operations, maintenance, logistics and upgrades, come from the engines, avionics and sub-systems. So far there is little argument that most of these components can be part- number common among all JSF variants.


Wasn't Bill criticizing the program for reducing the commonality between the three versions a few years ago?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 17:17
by maus92
The JSF PAO's response to the DB articles, as released to various news outlets.

VIA: Battle rages over F-35 gun issue
DAVID PUGLIESE | Ottawa Citizen | 10JAN15

"Greetings: Hope your year is starting off well. If you have a moment, I’d like to help clear the air on some nameless / sourceless / baseless reporting you may have seen over the holidays that focused on two issues – the F-35 gun and EOTS. The information below is a bit long, but it presents the facts and can be used on the record if you decide to write more informed articles.

F-35’s GAU-22 Gun System

Contrary to recent media misreporting, F-35 25mm gun system (also known as GAU-22) was established in 2005 as a Block 3F weapon for all F-35 variants and its capability will be delivered in 3F software in 2017 (on LRIP 9 aircraft).

The General Dynamics GAU-22 gun system completed its ground qualification testing in July 2008. Comprehensive flight test on the F-35A variant GAU-22 25mm gun system is scheduled to begin mid-year at Edwards Air Force Base, California, and will include ground fire tests, muzzle calibration, flight test integration and in-flight operational tests. The 25mm missionized gun pod carried externally, centerline mounted on the F-35B and F-35C also begins testing this year to deliver the 3F full warfighting capability software in 2017.

In December 2014 during computer lab tests of 3F software we identified a minor low-level issue with aircraft software that impacted the interface with the gun. This discovery was part of normal software development and testing and a plan is in place to resolve this issue by Spring 2015. There is no anticipated impact to scheduled gun testing or fielding.

The F-35 program remains in its developmental phase and as software and capabilities are tested and cleared through rigorous flight testing those capabilities are delivered to the warfighter.

In 2015, for its Initial Operational Capability (IOC), the U.S. Marine Corps will receive initial warfighting capability software (known as 2B) that will provide basic close air support and interdiction and initial air-to-air and enhanced data-link capability for weapons including AMRAAM / JDAM / GBU-12, all internally carried. The U.S. Air Force will attain its IOC in 2016 with the 3i software and same weapons capability. At the end of the development program, we will deliver full warfighting capability software (known as 3F). The U.S. Navy will attain IOC in 2018 with 3F software. This will provide all warfighters with multi-ship destruction of enemy air defense capability, advance air-to-ground and air-to-air capability, and have full complement of internal and external ordnance — including use of the GAU-22 25mm gun. Delivering the gun capability in 3F software is well-known to the military services, International Partners and our Foreign Military Sales (FMS) customers. That has always been the stated requirement and plan and it hasn’t varied since the technical baseline review in 2010.

F-35’s Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)

Regarding the F-35’s Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), it is the world’s first sensor to combine both air-to-ground and air-to-air infrared search and targeting capability in a very low observable (VLO) platform. EOTS allows the F-35 to conduct air-to-air and air-to-surface targeting missions while maintaining the F-35’s VLO profile – a capability that external podded systems cannot provide.

The F-35 will field with the capability to conduct Close Air Support (CAS) in both uncontested and contested environments.

The U.S. Services, led by the U.S. Marine Corps, have held several virtual Close Air Support (CAS) exercises, and by all accounts, the total system including the Radar, Electronic Warfare, and Communication capabilities that will be delivered at the time of Marine Corps Initial Operational Capability (IOC) in July 2015 supports the execution of required CAS missions, particularly in contested environments.

Specifically, for the CAS mission area, this includes transmitting and receiving EOTS (and air to surface radar) still images via Link-16 and Variable Message Format (VMF) data links to and from other entities including Joint Terminal Attack Controllers (JTAC).

As with all development programs, the F-35 baseline requirements define the starting place for capabilities that will be evolved and upgraded over the life of the program. There are a range of potential upgrades and enhancements for EOTS that will be implemented by the Services and International Partners for inclusion in future Block upgrades. Some of the additional capabilities for consideration include items such as Higher Definition Video, longer range target detection and identification, Video Data Link, and Infrared (IR) Marker and Pointer."

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/ ... -gun-issue

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 17:29
by sferrin
Not seeing anything in there that supports, "HUURRR the wheels have come off the F-35 program and it's gun won't even work until 2019". :lol:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 17:35
by XanderCrews
I love how the media thinks this is come kind of "battle" or "fight" . The F-35 is built to win on the battlefield, not the internet or media. I'm sure this will blow over soon until the next ZOMG emergency that will be forgotten about in a month.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 17:43
by KamenRiderBlade
XanderCrews wrote:I love how the media thinks this is come kind of "battle" or "fight" . The F-35 is built to win on the battlefield, not the internet or media. I'm sure this will blow over soon until the next ZOMG emergency that will be forgotten about in a month.


You know the common dullards that can't understand complex problems won't be wowed till the F-35 does amazing maneuvers at an airshow.

Look at all the fanboys that are obsessed with Russian aircraft and their fancy vector thrust enabled maneuvers.

I bet you that the 6th gen aircraft will have full 2D planar thrust vectoring to enhance maneuverability and help sell the aircraft to the public.

=D

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2015, 23:27
by spazsinbad
:mrgreen: Well you have read all the texts - NOW FOR THE MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND... IT REPEATS ITSELF? TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF? :mrgreen: NO WAIT.... 3.5 times ALMOST>>>>>>>>>

Russian and Ukraine daily news channel 03 Jan 2015

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2015, 02:28
by vilters
Writing a HMD gun aiming software.
Now that is gonna take some doing.

Head moving in all directions.
Head and helm moving (sometimes individually) under "G" load, now that's what I call a challenge.
With twist, side-side and individual bend loads?

My hats's off to the first bullet on target.
(Well to the software engineer that can pull this one off. LOL.)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2015, 02:39
by eskodas
It's really not, they'll just add it into the existing HUD flight information anchor.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2015, 03:14
by sferrin
spazsinbad wrote::mrgreen: Well you have read all the texts - NOW FOR THE MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND... IT REPEATS ITSELF? TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF? :mrgreen: NO WAIT.... 3.5 times ALMOST>>>>>>>>>

Russian and Ukraine daily news channel 03 Jan 2015


Who's working Bernie's puppet strings there?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2015, 03:26
by cantaz
eskodas wrote:It's really not, they'll just add it into the existing HUD flight information anchor.


Why is this such a hard concept for people?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2015, 20:00
by spazsinbad
Over the page here: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=26775&p=283934&hilit=individually#p283934 'Vilters' said:
"...Head moving in all directions. Head and helm moving (sometimes individually) under "G" load, now that's what I call a challenge. With twist, side-side and individual bend loads?..."

Here are some technical details (which will only be repeats from the HMDS thread in another section of this forum but - whatever... GO HERE for most of it: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=274480&hilit=Busbee#p274480 ).
Rockwell Collins horizons The Perfect Fit F-35 Gen III HMDS
Annette Busbee Vol 19 Issue Two 2014

"...“We have to fit a helmet to an asymmetrical human head so the optics package on the display visor is within two millimeters of exact center of each of the pupils,” he explained.

The process takes approximately four hours per helmet and involves two contact days with each pilot . On the first contact day, precise measurements are taken of the pilot’s head, including a 3D head scan and the use of a pupilometer to measure the distance between the pupils.

Once Kalsow and Breuer have the measurements and the helmet components – most of which are produced at our company’s facility in Wilsonville, Oregon – they begin assembling the helmet. This process includes custom-milling each helmet liner so the helmet fits the individual’s head comfortably and maintains its stability under high gravity (G) maneuvers.

“Our helmet liner must stand up to the pressure of high G manuevers so the optics package remains aligned with the pilot’s field of view,” Kalsow noted.

When the helmet is assembled, the pilot comes in for a fitting during the second contact day. It’s at this time that the optics package is aligned to the pilot’s pupils and the display visor is custom contoured – a process that must be done precisely so the pilot has a single focused image at infinity...."

Source: http://issuu.com/rockwellcollinshorizon ... l19issue2# (PDF 3.9Mb)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2015, 20:56
by arrow-nautics
sferrin wrote:Who's working Bernie's puppet strings there?
Good question

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 09:14
by hornetfinn
XanderCrews wrote:I love how the media thinks this is come kind of "battle" or "fight" . The F-35 is built to win on the battlefield, not the internet or media. I'm sure this will blow over soon until the next ZOMG emergency that will be forgotten about in a month.


Very true. I think F-35 program is too professional for most people and especially for media. The program follows quite strict schedule and plans to achieve huge amount of capabilities at certain dates. Often this is dull and people want to see circus acts. For example F-35 high-AOA videos seem rather dull to average people because the maneuvers are not flashy but have been designed and executed by professional people for professional purposes. I see the same with the gun issue. The program wants to test the design and software thoroughly before releasing it to service. Many people seem to think that such a simple device as gun should be easy to make work. They don't understand how complex the gun system actually is and how many complex systems it affects or can affect.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 09:19
by KamenRiderBlade
hornetfinn wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:I love how the media thinks this is come kind of "battle" or "fight" . The F-35 is built to win on the battlefield, not the internet or media. I'm sure this will blow over soon until the next ZOMG emergency that will be forgotten about in a month.


Very true. I think F-35 program is too professional for most people and especially for media. The program follows quite strict schedule and plans to achieve huge amount of capabilities at certain dates. Often this is dull and people want to see circus acts. For example F-35 high-AOA videos seem rather dull to average people because the maneuvers are not flashy but have been designed and executed by professional people for professional purposes. I see the same with the gun issue. The program wants to test the design and software thoroughly before releasing it to service. Many people seem to think that such a simple device as gun should be easy to make work. They don't understand how complex the gun system actually is and how many complex systems it affects or can affect.


Many of us here have dealt with programs / projects that require a lot of detail, so we can understand complex problems.

Most normal people don't deal with complex stuff, so things like schedules, details, and testing are beyond them. Most people are very simple and only deal with flashy stuff that Hollywood / Airshows have shown them.

Look at all the Anti-JSF people, they can only think in simple terms, they have zero experience in complex issues.
What kind of complicated projects with lots of details, very long timelines have somebody like Bill Sweetman done? Probably not much other than meet a short weekly or monthly deadline with shoddy journalism.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 10:28
by geogen
As many critics have been critical on point for many years now, it's very possible that a podded gun might not be deployed operationally until even later than 2019! Perhaps not even until block 4! Crazy (very unfortunate way)... God speed.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 11:33
by KamenRiderBlade
geogen wrote:As many critics have been critical on point for many years now, it's very possible that a podded gun might not be deployed operationally until even later than 2019! Perhaps not even until block 4! Crazy (very unfortunate way)... God speed.


So because of many "WHAT IF's" you are going to cry that it's the "END OF THE WORLD" and how horrible the JSF program is because they have a predefined schedule that "MAY" break in a worse case scenario where the gun doesn't work as expected and "DELAYS" the program for the roll out of the gun.

Have you ever thought about how hard all the folks at the F-35/JSF program are working to make sure everything works correctly and is properly tested with using all modern scientific / engineering practices with EVERY piece of experience gained from previous aircraft acquisition program?

You look at all the previous programs and noticed how many incidents / issues there were with losses in aircraft / dead test pilots or crew; compared to those programs, the F-35 looks pretty amazing in retrospect.

The F-14 lost their first prototype plane early on.
The F-16 has had many teething issues early on.
The F-22 lost it's prototype early on as well
The V-22 has lost ALOT of people and aircraft, yet look at where it is now and all the amazing things it can do.
The new technology that the V-22 pushes ahead and will unlock newer aircraft using similar technology.
All of flight history and the numerous military acquisition/test programs is littered with accidents/incidents, yet it pushes on ahead with many gains.

Your expectation for a perfect aircraft that passes without issues and is on time is rare and happens once in a blue moon. Very few programs have accomplished this (F-5 being the only case that I can think of). Most programs have had far more issues.

Again, you are being critical on a project that has done incredibly well in-spite of all the BS and tripe you throw at it.
The US and it's international partners are pushing Aircraft technology forward, they have made incredible progress despite all the BS you geogen and all other F-35 haters keep bringing up with old outdated info to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

If the DoD listened to people like you geogen, technology would never progress, or it would go at such a slow pace that Russia / China would catch up and surpass us in no time. Then when war does happen, it'll end up being like WWII or worse where the US and it's allies end up with far more losses then necessary instead of a Gulf War I situation where we completely overpower our enemies. Geogen, your trend of thought is reckless, short sighted, and very selfish. It seems like your agenda is to take the money away from the DoD and use it on programs that only YOU deem worthy instead of trusting the proven history, experience, and vision of the DoD and the goals of the JSF program.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 14:19
by sferrin
geogen wrote:As many critics have been critical on point for many years now, it's very possible that a podded gun might not be deployed operationally until even later than 2019! Perhaps not even until block 4! Crazy (very unfortunate way)... God speed.



OMG the horror! Tell me, how many years did the Tomcat fly with it's "interim" engine? I presume you think it was a POS as well?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 15:22
by XanderCrews
geogen wrote:As many critics have been critical on point for many years now, it's very possible that a podded gun might not be deployed operationally until even later than 2019! Perhaps not even until block 4! Crazy (very unfortunate way)... God speed.


so?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 16:30
by SpudmanWP
geogen wrote:As many critics have been critical on point for many years now, it's very possible that a podded gun might not be deployed operationally until even later than 2019! Perhaps not even until block 4! Crazy (very unfortunate way)... God speed.


Do try to keep up with the latest news and official reporting instead of conjecture and BS.

Image

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2015, 16:59
by sferrin
Yeah but if he stuck to facts what would he have to whine about?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2015, 14:42
by luke_sandoz
Meanwhile, the F-35 is well armed

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2015, 16:49
by blindpilot
The other thing folks with no experience in project development miss is that a well laid out schedule covering all points does not preempt responses to real world needs, should they arise. JSTARS as a system, and several munitions (ie. bunker buster, even gun pods etc.) come to mind. These were rescheduled on short notice and capabilities brought to the battlefield where needed in months, years ahead of schedule. There was some cleanup on the back side, but if it was needed it showed up.

Schedules do not mean the sky is falling and the system cannot do something. Quite the opposite. They mean a system will work as designed, and deliver what is promised.

Add to this the distortion of 'what if'' schedule reading, and frankly I tire of idiots. Let someone else teach them what they should have learned in kindergarten. I'm getting too old for suffering fools.

BP

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2015, 09:15
by lookieloo
Looks like Dave's now down to writing top-(whatever-number) fluff.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/4-u ... -now-12055

Wow, just read... could he possibly be any more of a dilettante f#cktard?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2015, 16:46
by count_to_10
lookieloo wrote:Looks like Dave's now down to writing top-(whatever-number) fluff.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/4-u ... -now-12055

Wow, just read... could he possibly be any more of a dilettante f#cktard?

He want's to retire the AMRAAM? Seriously? Because of jamming?
Has he never heard of upgrades?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2015, 17:38
by XanderCrews
lookieloo wrote:Looks like Dave's now down to writing top-(whatever-number) fluff.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/4-u ... -now-12055

Wow, just read... could he possibly be any more of a dilettante f#cktard?


http://i45.tinypic.com/t7xusw.gif

Thats an incredible amount of Bullcrap. LOL wow. Someone get this guy away from the keyboard LOL.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2015, 19:55
by luke_sandoz
Poor Dave, it is kinda sad actually.

Dave has devolved into a self P'owning clown level journalist. Maybe he's ill or something, or maybe having substance abuse problems or maybe it could be early onset senility? Because something is not quite right with him. The thinking, the logic . . . It is just so vapid, so shallow, so mundane.

Only time will tell. And to think he could have had a decent career.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2015, 20:47
by SpudmanWP
lookieloo wrote:Looks like Dave's now down to writing top-(whatever-number) fluff.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/4-u ... -now-12055

Wow, just read... could he possibly be any more of a dilettante f#cktard?

"Boeing F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornet"


Psst.. Hey Dave, they are and it's called the F-35B/C :)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2015, 21:42
by neptune
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ne-408018/


USMC's F-35B can fire missiles when it comes online

By: Dan Parsons
16 Jan 2015


It is still up in the air whether the US Marine Corps will have combat-ready Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning IIs by its "July 1, 2015" deadline for initial operational capability (IOC), but the first 10 jets are now "fully cleared" to fire weapons.

The portion of the 2B software that manages weapons separation has completed the necessary testing, the Pentagon’s Joint Program Office (JPO) announced on 15 January, 2015. The F-35B’s software was validated after several weapons separation tests

“The weapons development program continues to track forward on the plan laid out by the technical baseline review approved in 2010,” Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan, F-35 programme executive officer, says in a statement. “All weapons tests needed for 2B software, the software the US Marine Corps will use to declare IOC, is complete and will be ready to go for their combat capability certification.”. Older jets will be retrofitted with 3F at a later date.

.Lockheed and the JPO are scrambling to catch up on a month of lost software and flight testing resulting from an engine fire that temporarily grounded the fleet. High-ranking US officials, including JPO chief Lt Gen Christopher Bogdan, Navy Secretary Ray Mabus and Air Force Chief of Staff Gen Mark Welsh have in recent weeks doubled down that the Marines Will have operational jets on or near July 1, 2015.

-Live fire ground testing of the F-35B was completed in early September 2014, the JPO says.
-In October 2014, the F-35B was certified to perform day and night close air support missions with the 2B software.
-Separations testing with a 113kg (250lb) Boeing GBU-39 small diameter bomb was completed 20 November 2014.
-The aircraft also completed flutter testing with the MBDA AIM-132 short-range air-to-air missile and Raytheon Paveway IV laser-guided bombs in late 2014.
-An F-35 also fired two MBDA AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles and a Boeing joint direct attack munition (JDAM) during weapon delivery accuracy tests, marking the first supersonic guided missile launch 2014.
-It also was the first time the F-35 has hit a target with a JDAM using coordinates generated by the electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) 2014.

.Comprehensive flight test on the F-35A’s 25mm gun system is scheduled to begin mid-year, 2015 at Edwards AFB, California, and will include ground fire tests, muzzle calibration, flight test integration and in-flight operational tests, the JPO says. The Marine Corps’ F-35B and navy’s F-35C have no internal gun. Marines will have the option of carrying the GAU-22 in an externally mounted pod. The 25mm missionized gun pod carried externally, centerline mounted on the F-35B and F-35C also begins testing this year, 2015 to meet U.S. service’s desired schedule for full warfighting capability software known as 3F. The 3F software is currently planned for delivery with the low rate initial production nine (LRIP 9) US aircraft in 2017.

-Both the A and C models completed weapon milestones in 2014.
-The F-35C launched an AIM-120 AMRAAM, the last separation test needed to certify the variant’s Block 2B software 2014.
-The F-35A finished the final buffet, load and high-angle of attack testing necessary for its Block 2B software 2014.

little more at the jump :)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2015, 05:11
by spazsinbad
FY 14 DOD PROGRAMS F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)
Jan 2015 UNK

“...The program is making advances in assessing the lethality of the 25 mm x 137 mm PGU-48 Frangible Armor Piercing (FAP) round, a designated round for the F-35A variant, and the PGU-32/U Semi-Armor Piercing High Explosive Incendiary-Tracer (SAPHEI-T) ammunition currently designated for the F-35B and F-35C variants....
&
...Gun Ammunition Lethality and Vulnerability
• The program completed the ballistic impact response characterization of the PGU-47/U Armor Piercing Explosive (APEX) round for the partner F-35A variant using the AAA and fragment threats. Preliminary data analysis demonstrated no significant reactions or evidence of high pressures that could potentially induce sympathetic reactions from adjacent rounds loaded on the aircraft.

• The program completed the terminal ballistic testing of the PGU-48 FAP round and the PGU-32 round against a range of target-representative material plates and plate arrays. Preliminary FAP test observations indicate lower than expected levels of fragmentation when passing through multiple layer targets. PGU-32 test observations indicate that the round detonates much closer to the impact point of the first target plate than originally called out in ammunition specification. The program will determine the impact of these data on the ammunition lethality assessment.

• Ground-based lethality test planning is ongoing. All three rounds will be tested against a similar range of targets, including armored and technical vehicles, aircraft, and personnel in the open. FY15 funds are in place for all tests except those against boat targets.

• Air-to-ground lethality tests will likely begin no earlier than 1QFY16. Given the development test schedule of the APEX round, the existing flight test plan does not include this round.”...

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 08:22
by jtcreate
What's so funny is the ALARMISTS who emerge out of the backwoods and onto youtube every time the media spins a wise tail on the F-35. I was tempted to post this in the "Basement Dwellers" thread but he's just too amusingly obsessed with the Gun. He literally tries to create the impression that for the next four years, the only thing the USA's got defending the country is the F-35. Maybe some one should tell him that all the Legacy fighters will still be around in 2019.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQluqptYtw

I literally LMAO listening to this guy. I should ask him if he every took any acting classes. :lmao:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 08:39
by SpudmanWP
omg, that guy's "commentary" was so full of inaccuracies and flat out lies that I stopped taking notes after the first minute.

Funniest moment for me was when he claimed that the gun was the most lethal weapon on a fighter....

Yeah, right.. back in 1945 maybe.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 08:48
by jtcreate
SpudmanWP wrote:omg, that guy's "commentary" was so full of inaccuracies and flat out lies that I stopped taking notes after the first minute.

Funniest moment for me was when he claimed that the gun was the most lethal weapon on a fighter....

Yeah, right.. back in 1945 maybe.


Ok Spudman! You talked me into it. I'll be right back. I got a question to ask this guy.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 09:07
by jtcreate
SpudmanWP wrote:omg, that guy's "commentary" was so full of inaccuracies and flat out lies that I stopped taking notes after the first minute.

Funniest moment for me was when he claimed that the gun was the most lethal weapon on a fighter....

Yeah, right.. back in 1945 maybe.


Sorry, I couldn't help myself on that one. What's so amazing is all the posters who are taken by this guy. Perhaps he should sell tickets.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 14:59
by XanderCrews
jtcreate wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:omg, that guy's "commentary" was so full of inaccuracies and flat out lies that I stopped taking notes after the first minute.

Funniest moment for me was when he claimed that the gun was the most lethal weapon on a fighter....

Yeah, right.. back in 1945 maybe.


Sorry, I couldn't help myself on that one. What's so amazing is all the posters who are taken by this guy. Perhaps he should sell tickets.


:doh:

there is a phrase in demographics/advertising "if you are watching it, its for you"

Reminds me of Sol, everything is a conspiracy especially the open source stuff he is ignorant of

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 15:26
by count_to_10
Seriously, until the F-16 is retired (or mostly phased out), the F-35A is going to be used almost exclusively for strike missions, not anything like CAP or CAS. Until then, any air-to-air combat it gets into is probably going to be restricted to firing missiles and getting home as fast as possible.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 15:28
by spazsinbad
Yes Sol has a penchant for spinning ordinary reality into a gigantic soon to be catastrophic conspiracy. There have been quite a few lately. Especially I like the airborne Ebola over Xmas Catastrophe in US of A. Then there is the never ending death spiral (about to happen always in the near future) of youse know what. Reminds me of 'Oils Ain't Oils, Sol': [reality is not reality at all - but something else]


Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 22:01
by XanderCrews
spazsinbad wrote:Yes Sol has a penchant for spinning ordinary reality into a gigantic soon to be catastrophic conspiracy. There have been quite a few lately.



After whining for years about how the new CMC would instantly cancel the F-35, I inquired why this hadn't yet happened in one of his threads. the comment was removed of course.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 22:49
by jtcreate
XanderCrews wrote:
jtcreate wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:omg, that guy's "commentary" was so full of inaccuracies and flat out lies that I stopped taking notes after the first minute.

Funniest moment for me was when he claimed that the gun was the most lethal weapon on a fighter....

Yeah, right.. back in 1945 maybe.


Sorry, I couldn't help myself on that one. What's so amazing is all the posters who are taken by this guy. Perhaps he should sell tickets.


:doh:

there is a phrase in demographics/advertising "if you are watching it, its for you"

Reminds me of Sol, everything is a conspiracy especially the open source stuff he is ignorant of



Agreed! I still couldn't help myself. The badly acted Drama was just too amusing.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2015, 22:54
by jtcreate
arrow-nautics wrote:
sferrin wrote:Who's working Bernie's puppet strings there?
Good question




Now that is CLASSIC!

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 06:09
by spazsinbad
"Lockheed Martin test pilot Dan Canin is at the controls of F-35C test aircraft CF-5 during external stores hiigh AoA testing over the Eastern Shore of Maryland on 25 February 2015. The aircraft is loaded with AIM-9X air-to-air missiles and a centerline 25 mm gun pod. Photo by Michael D. Jackson"

Original Photo: http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/m ... 7_5866.jpg

Source: http://www.codeonemagazine.com/gallery_ ... ry_style=2

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 08:49
by mrigdon
Nice try. That's clearly a Gripen dressed up as an F-35. Everyone knows the F-35 won't have a gun until 2019.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2015, 09:18
by spazsinbad
:mrgreen: Get a GRIPon Mr. Ig DON! :devil:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2015, 01:08
by spazsinbad
Some old news from the dim dark past possibly not seen here before? Anyhooo....
AEDC reacts to first F-35 JSF weapons suite flight test
21 May 2010 By Philip Lorenz III, HIGH MACH, Technical Writer Vol.57, No.10

“...One of the more interesting technical aspects of the test program involved the determination of an optimally designed external fuel tank,” he said. “With the aid of some pretest CFD [computational fluid dynamics] analysis, [a specific] fuel tank geometry was tested and proven to reduce the overall aircraft drag below the levels documented using classic tank geometries.

...The flight test aircraft, designated AF-2, will be used to verify the F-35A’s ability to carry both internal and external weapons throughout the required flight envelope. The jet is also the first F-35 to have the internal GAU-22/A 25-millimeter gun system installed. The system, featuring a four-barrel Gatling gun which fires at a rate of 3,000 rounds per minute, is made by General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products in Burlington, Vt.

Gun testing on AF-2 will be used to confirm predictions of gun vibration, acoustic and recoil loads with the aircraft and various weapons. Additionally, the aircraft will be used to confirm vibro-acoustic loads with the weapons-bay doors open and closed with various weapon configurations. The measurements will validate the structural design of the jet, and provide evidence of the F-35A weapons’ compatibility with gunfire and weapons-bay environments.

Supersonic launch of internal weapons, including maximum-speed (Mach 1.6) launch of internal air-to-air missiles, is a feature of all F-35s...."

Source: http://www.arnold.af.mil/shared/media/d ... 20-051.pdf (3.2Mb)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2017, 04:36
by steve2267
Perusing this old thread... the link in the post previous to this one no longer works.

One may try Google with the search string "AFD-100520-051.pdf"

Which brought me to:

High Mach Vol. 57 No. 10 May 21, 2010

Don't know how long that link will be remain valid, hence the Google search suggestion.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2017, 05:30
by spazsinbad
Relevant article (2 pages made into one page) attached from above PDF at URL above.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 03:53
by neptune
http://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Article/ ... acy-tests/

F-35 testers wrap up Weapons Delivery Accuracy tests

By Kenji Thuloweit, 412th Test Wing Public Affairs
Published December 19, 2017


EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. --
Testers from the 461st Flight Test Squadron and F-35 Integrated Test Force (ITF) completed a major test milestone bringing the F-35 Lightning II’s full combat capabilities closer to the battlefield. Weapons Delivery Accuracy (WDA) flight tests began in July 2013 and testing wrapped up earlier this month. The WDA portion of the F-35 developmental test and evaluation mission ensures the fifth-generation fighter’s weapons system can deliver lethal ordnance both air-to-air and air-to-ground using the jet’s warfighting Block 3F software. The ITF used all three F-35 variants and delivered air-to-air missiles including AIM-120s, the AIM-9X and the United Kingdom’s Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile. The WDA tests also confirmed air-to-ground delivery of the Paveway IV laser-guided bomb, GBU-39 small diameter bomb, GBU-12, GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition and the AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon. “Weapons delivery accuracy tests are important, because without proof that the F-35 can actually drop these weapons where we need them to go, then the F-35 is just an information-gathering system,” said Lt. Col. Tucker Hamilton, 461st FLTS commander and F-35 ITF director. “The F-35 proved it was extremely capable in delivering these weapons where we wanted it and how we wanted it delivered. These are the most complicated and intricate missions that we had and the jet did extremely well.” Hamilton said the air-to-air accuracy tests finished in August with air-to-ground tests ending in October.

The F-35 ITF then capped off WDA tests by completing testing on the F-35’s GAU-22 25mm gun at the beginning of December 2017. The WDA gun tests included the Air Force’s A variant where the gun is internal carried and on the Marine Corps’ and Navy’s B and C variants, which employ a gun pod beneath the jet. Each weapon test required multiple missions including software development, “dry runs” and then the actual weapon release. Not including the gun, Hamilton said the F-35 ITF delivered 55 weapons during WDA testing, which was mainly done over the military sea range off the California coast and at Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake in California.

Maj. Jonathan Gilbert, 461st FLTS, completed the final air-to-ground WDA test as a new test pilot to the F-35 Integrated Test Force. “I didn't even know it was a milestone, I just knew I was dropping a weapon,” said Gilbert. “It wasn't until after that I felt the excitement from the team and the squadron to close out the WDA program. It is a credit to the team and the planning as it did not appear this would be achievable in the time the squadron accomplished it in, but yet they were able to complete it. I just had the pleasure of dropping the last one.” Hamilton said the F-35 Joint Program Office analyzes the data from all the WDA tests and any upgrades to the F-35 mission systems software will be sent out to the F-35 operational fleet. “When they get their 3F software, the one that is going to be productionized for full 3F capability, [the fleet] will be confident they can load these weapons and drop them on the target they’re selecting,” Hamilton said.

The F-35 Integrated Test Force, operating at both Edwards AFB and at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland, continues to conduct developmental flight test for the Defense Department’s F-35 Joint Program Office. Ongoing testing at Edwards AFB includes mission effectiveness testing, suppression of enemy air defenses, maritime interdiction, and offensive and defensive air-to-air combat testing. “The ITF takes these extremely challenging and intricate data requirements and then finds a way to coordinate with multiple outside agencies, drones, tankers, ranges and basically conduct these missions and make them happen in a historical manner,” said Hamilton. “No one before them has ever been able to pull off executing weapons deliveries like the individuals in the ITF.”
:D

….looks to be a bit ahead of some 2019 speculations!
:wink:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 04:00
by gc
Great news. Now the F-35 is conducting operational deployments. And can employ all commonly used weapons.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 04:20
by neptune
gc wrote:Great news. Now the F-35 is conducting operational deployments. And can employ all commonly used weapons.


….and "IF" the "Bee" is on tactical deployments and wearing a gun, then the Block?, becomes a bit more apparent!
:)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 07:06
by blindpilot
But but but .... "Gilmore said,"
and he is like the genius of the universe ... and ...

nevermind ... guess he was the babbling fool we proposed here over and over ... fanboys and all that.

Just keep your score sheets up to date on whether the "Wizard of OT" or the posters on F-16.net knew anything ... Been there .. done that ... and played idiot OT&E directors like a fiddle once or twice myself.

At least the new guy seems sharp. That should help going forward, next year.

MHO,
BP

(Sorry for the attitude. I do not suffer fools lightly)

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 07:16
by steve2267
blindpilot wrote:At least the new guy seems sharp. That should help going forward, next year.


Apparently new guy was a sled driver at one point of his career. I don't think the AF let dunces drive those. Things appear to be shaping up.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 07:25
by steve2267
neptune wrote:
gc wrote:Great news. Now the F-35 is conducting operational deployments. And can employ all commonly used weapons.


….and "IF" the "Bee" is on tactical deployments and wearing a gun, then the Block?, becomes a bit more apparent!
:)


Anybody know what software block VMFA-121 is running at MCAS Iwakuni? I seemed to recall 2B, then I read that VMFA-121 was getting all the latest aircraft delivered to the Corps, and the squadron's oldest aircraft would then be sent where needed elsewhere. One post said VMFA-121 was running 3i. Another post noted delivery of 3F-capable aircraft in autumn of 2017. But spaz' post here: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=52670&p=363326&hilit=block#p363326 states that VMFA-121 is running 2B S5.3. The reason I ask is VMFA-121 will have to be running 3F to be able to run their gun, right?

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 07:46
by spazsinbad
IIRC VMFA-121 are embarking next year so they will be using 3F. That kind of info is somewhere on forum - I'm at dindins.

Without checking - did not VMFA-121 receive their 2nd tranche of newer F-35Bs recently? I would guess these 6 aircraft will embark with their software updated beforehand. I'll be able to check later.... Yet to read all this post again but....

Other quotes from same article indicate F-35Bs will embark with 3F software in 2018 - so go read.... [10+6=16 F-35Bs]

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=52450&p=359653&hilit=embark+software#p359653
COMING TO AMERICA
Feb 2017 Jamie Hunter

"......Preparing for the real world...
...The ‘Green Knights’ of ‘121’ are expected to embark the USS Wasp in February 2018 as part of the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU). VMFA-211 ‘Avengers’ at MCAS Yuma is set to deploy with a ‘southern California’ MEU in June 2018. ‘With the Block 3F software we will have full ordnance clearance — that means [the F-35B will be able to carry] 4,000lb more than a Marine Corps F/A-18’, enthuses Davis...."

Download: F-35B DT-III USS America 6-8pp Combat Aircraft Feb 2017.pdf (1.86Mb) download/file.php?id=24033

Source: Combat Aircraft Monthly February 2017 Vol.18 No.2

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 11:13
by Dragon029
I can't recall the source but I'm 100% certain that at least some of VMFA-121's jets are Block 3i (the source was from early this year or late last year IIRC).

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 12:33
by spazsinbad
"...the Navy and three U.S Marine Corps F-35B squadrons will receive their first 3F-equipped aircraft this fall [2017]: the “Green Knights” of Marine Fighter Attack Sqdn. (VMFA) 121, permanently stationed at MCAS Iwakuni, Japan, the operational squadron at MCAS Yuma, Arizona, and the service’s training squadron at MCAS Beaufort, South Carolina, says service spokeswoman Capt. Sarah Burns...." viewtopic.php?f=62&t=52626&p=375505&hilit=Knights+Green+software#p375505 OR http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft ... inish-line 04sep2017

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 13:10
by neptune
Dragon029 wrote:I can't recall the source but I'm 100% certain that at least some of VMFA-121's jets are Block 3i (the source was from early this year or late last year IIRC).



....please consider the last 4 LRIPs - LRIP6/7/8/9 or (36) "Bees"
- were assigned and delivered as Block 3I or "to be/as needed" upgraded to Block 3I with:

VMFA-121(16 a/c)
VMFA-211(3 a/c)
VMFAT-501(5 a/c)
UK(11 a/c)
Italy(1 a/c)

for a total of (36);
by the last counts.
:wink:


…but "NO" Block 3F ("wearing a gun")!
:roll:

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 22:04
by alloycowboy
Gee, I wonder if there is a top secret reason they do not see the gun as a high priority.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 3b4da3f15a

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 22:19
by quicksilver
121 may have a couple 2B jets, but they gave (most of) their 2B jets to 211 before they deployed.

Re: F-35 gun INOP until 2019

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 22:39
by SpudmanWP
alloycowboy wrote:Gee, I wonder if there is a top secret reason they do not see the gun as a high priority.


??

Block 3F includes a gun, so where is the "gun not a priority" coming from?

Hamilton said the air-to-air accuracy tests finished in August with air-to-ground tests ending in October. The ITF then capped off WDA tests by completing testing on the ’s GAU-22 25mm gun at the beginning of December. The WDA gun tests included the Air Force’s A variant where the gun is internal carried and on the Marine Corps’ and Navy’s B and C variants, which employ a gun pod beneath the jet.


Image