F35A Air to Air loadout?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2010, 15:36
by imacca
Am interested in this as Australia is going to be using the F35A as its primary air superiority fighter in the future.

Seems to me that by the time we get them they will be able to carry 4 or maybe 6 AMRAAM internally.

Will they be qualified for assram / AIM9X internally? Assram can already lock on after launch, and we are buying AIM9X for the SuperHornets which is supposed to be able to lock on after launch at some point.

I believe that there are also underwing pylons under development for AIM9X/assram. Anyone know if these are actually under test as yet and, practically, how much carriage of assram or AIM9X will affect stealth? Wouldnt think that it would add a lot of drag?

Actually, does anyone have any opinions on which would be more/less stealthy? assram or AIM9x?

RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2010, 15:48
by bjr1028
MBDA is developing a trapeze launcher on the door station for ASRAAM. I will also work with AIM-9X block II or any other missile made for a sidewinder type missile.

RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2010, 16:13
by imacca
So, with a trapeze type launcher the missile wont necesarily have to lock on after launch??

RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2010, 23:25
by bjr1028
No, but current western IRAAMs are designed to be rail launched rather than drop like AMRAAM.

RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 03:31
by apg77
http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2010/04 ... apons-bay/

The above press release makes it more clear that they are working on 4 grand total internal for now for end of SDD.

Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 03:34
by apg77
bjr1028 wrote:No, but current western IRAAMs are designed to be rail launched rather than drop like AMRAAM.

The Trapeze system, for evaluation in the F-35?s system development and demonstration (SDD) phase, will provide the ability to utilize rail-launched missiles carried on a trapeze that swings clear of the F-35?s weapon bay.

AIM-9X and AIM-132 will be ok.

Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 04:03
by SpudmanWP
apg77 wrote:http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/f-35-program-working-on-4-air-to-air-missiles-in-the-weapons-bay/

The above press release makes it more clear that they are working on 4 grand total internal for now for end of SDD.


True, the current configuration for SDD (Block 3) is 4 internal AAMs. Block 5 is where the move to 6 internal AAMs is planned. Block 5 is due for IOC in the 2017 timeframe.

Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 06:33
by geogen
apg77 wrote:Block 5 is due for IOC in the 2017 timeframe.

Unfortunately, that date's capability does not apply to RAAF though. Perhaps add a couple years for partner nations and FMS?

RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 06:49
by SpudmanWP
Geo, LM will not likely be building diferent Blks as the same time, especially for partner nations.

When Blk5 starts to roll off the line, they will not likely go back to Blk4 or 3 in follow-on jets.

Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 07:18
by beepa
SpudmanWP wrote:
apg77 wrote:http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/f-35-program-working-on-4-air-to-air-missiles-in-the-weapons-bay/

The above press release makes it more clear that they are working on 4 grand total internal for now for end of SDD.


True, the current configuration for SDD (Block 3) is 4 internal AAMs. Block 5 is where the move to 6 internal AAMs is planned. Block 5 is due for IOC in the 2017 timeframe.


Apart from "rushing them out the door" why wouldn't they test/evaluate the full capacity of the airframe from the start?. i.e. why not start with 6 AAMs and if the customer requires only 4 AAMs then just don't load one? Or does the move to 6 hinder the carriage of ATG weapons?

RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 07:23
by SpudmanWP
Primary reason is that 4 internal AAMs was the requirement set forth in the RFP.

Secondly, because there is only so much time and money available for SDD. 4 Internal AAMs can be accomplished using the minimum of hardware.

RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 07:25
by geogen
I concur, Spud. I was just saying that RAAF would likely Not be seeing Blk 5 6x-AMRAAM carrying IOC in 2017 as was suggested. More likely 2019(?) for them and other partners in a best-case, (unlike USAF which might define IOC differently and be on a different IOC timeframe).

RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 07:43
by SpudmanWP
True, although all partners will be getting Blk 5 at about the same time, how long it takes them to get them IOC is unknown.

Do you really think it will take the RAAF 2 years from receipt to IOC especially since this will not be their first batch of F-35s?

RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 08:03
by munny
Is there a document somewhere which shows the plan for 6 missiles "INTERNALLY" at block 5? I've seen a diagram showing additions at various block levels but it just says 6 x AIM-120, not 6 x AIM120 Internally.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 08:30
by Scorpion82
munny wrote:Is there a document somewhere which shows the plan for 6 missiles "INTERNALLY" at block 5? I've seen a diagram showing additions at various block levels but it just says 6 x AIM-120, not 6 x AIM120 Internally.


LM has conducted feasibility studies for the internal carriage of 6 AMRAAMs. There are pictures floating around of a 3-D graphic from that studies. You may checkout the program docs thread and if you use the search function you'll likely find something quick. This matter has been discussed a couple of times.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 08:41
by SpudmanWP
munny wrote:Is there a document somewhere which shows the plan for 6 missiles "INTERNALLY" at block 5? I've seen a diagram showing additions at various block levels but it just says 6 x AIM-120, not 6 x AIM120 Internally.


No, there is not much detail about Blk short of the Norway docs.

At SDD IOC (Blk 3) the F-35 can carry 14 AAMs (Internal and External). What else could the "Six AAMs" of Blk 5 refer to but internal?

Image

Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 08:42
by SpudmanWP
Deleted duplicate

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 11:00
by deadseal
what about the tactical implications? Lets say standard AI scenario. You have all your bombs internally to remain stealthy. Well the 120's hanging on the outside will give you away right? So in reality you could not remain stealthy and be self escort. Nor could you go out like a viper in an OCA sweep with 6 120's. So what is the answer? Do you shoot your missiles when you get inside an SA-10 MEZ so he can't target you? Do you rely on the raptors to shape the air picture like we do now? I guess my question is what is the tactical applicatiion of only 4 missils internally. I don't know the RCS of 2 GBu31s' or 10 external 120's.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 12:37
by wrightwing
deadseal wrote:what about the tactical implications? Lets say standard AI scenario. You have all your bombs internally to remain stealthy. Well the 120's hanging on the outside will give you away right? So in reality you could not remain stealthy and be self escort. Nor could you go out like a viper in an OCA sweep with 6 120's. So what is the answer? Do you shoot your missiles when you get inside an SA-10 MEZ so he can't target you? Do you rely on the raptors to shape the air picture like we do now? I guess my question is what is the tactical applicatiion of only 4 missils internally. I don't know the RCS of 2 GBu31s' or 10 external 120's.


It's not an either or situation. The F-35 can carry 2 AMRAAMs and 2 2000lb JDAMs(or 8 SDBs, 2 JSMs, 2 JSWOWs, etc..) internally for stealthy strike missions, or 6 AMRAAMS internally for OCA. In situations where max stealth isn't required, then external stores could also be carried. In other words, no external stores for engaging S-300/400.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 14:46
by munny
SpudmanWP wrote:At SDD IOC (Blk 3) the F-35 can carry 14 AAMs (Internal and External). What else could the "Six AAMs" of Blk 5 refer to but internal?


Thats what I figured, internal is implied by the fact it carries more than 6 externally.

Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 15:04
by stereospace
bjr1028 wrote:MBDA is developing a trapeze launcher on the door station for ASRAAM.

Are there plans to blindfold the missiles on the trapeze, just to make things more exciting?

Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2010, 17:28
by LMAggie
geogen wrote:I concur, Spud. I was just saying that RAAF would likely Not be seeing Blk 5 6x-AMRAAM carrying IOC in 2017 as was suggested. More likely 2019(?) for them and other partners in a best-case, (unlike USAF which might define IOC differently and be on a different IOC timeframe).


I don't think that this is a given, although its a possibility. This program is different than programs, many projects are done with the partners in mind.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2010, 01:40
by deadseal
It's not an either or situation. The F-35 can carry 2 AMRAAMs and 2 2000lb JDAMs(or 8 SDBs, 2 JSMs, 2 JSWOWs, etc..) internally for stealthy strike missions, or 6 AMRAAMS internally for OCA. In situations where max stealth isn't required, then external stores could also be carried. In other words, no external stores for engaging S-300/400.[/quote]

I meant to specify the block that cannot carry 6 internal. Going out with only 2 A-A missiles on self escort is not a good idea. I guess what i am saying is that the f-35 cannot self escort against a high AOB with only 2 missiles. Sometimes the 120 doesn't work much like a gbu-12 fin falling off in flight etc. etc. In the block 5 will it be able to carry 4 missiles and 2 2000lbs ers'? That would be the more traditional loadout that we fly with today. And make me much more comfortable at push time (sts).

Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2010, 07:16
by geogen
SpudmanWP wrote: Do you really think it will take the RAAF 2 years from receipt to IOC especially since this will not be their first batch of F-35s?


Hard to say, and I'll concur with LMaggie on that point. I'm only speculating that the first IOC batch of RAAF a/c (or USAF for that matter, expected earlier in 2016) will be block III? Perhaps a year later, enter blk4? And then 1 yr after this (best case scenario), enter blk 5?? 2019 IOC?

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2010, 13:30
by wrightwing
deadseal wrote:

I meant to specify the block that cannot carry 6 internal.


From IOC the F-35 can carry 4 AAMs internal. It wouldn't carry any A2G ordinance for OCA/DCA.

Going out with only 2 A-A missiles on self escort is not a good idea. I guess what i am saying is that the f-35 cannot self escort against a high AOB with only 2 missiles.


A- the difference between the F-35 and current fighters is that it will enjoy contempt of engagement, so it won't necessarily have to engage at all. Remember it'll enjoy huge improvements in situational awareness, combined with a VLO airframe.
B- not every F-35 in the strike package has to carry A2G ordinance. Some may carry 4 AAMs(or 6 in later blocks).
C- F-15C, F-18E/F, and F-22s will likely be somewhere in the vicinity as well.

Sometimes the 120 doesn't work much like a gbu-12 fin falling off in flight etc. etc.

Has there been an issue with AMRAAM fins falling off in flight?

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2010, 21:29
by geogen
the difference between the F-35 and current fighters is that it will enjoy contempt of engagement, so it won't necessarily have to engage at all.


Just an FYI, but the F-35 was not conceived nor designed to counter the 'current fighters' as you say. In fact, the very basic entry level block III aircraft (with all it's imperfections requiring immediate upgrades to satisfy Partners and potential FMS) is only anticipated to be IOC for Partners by around 2017/2018, now.

A hypothetical block IV (a more mature, proven F-35) will need to be countering the finest aircrafts coming on line by around 2020. mind you.

Hardly today's fighters. God speed..

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2010, 23:03
by wrightwing
geogen wrote:
the difference between the F-35 and current fighters is that it will enjoy contempt of engagement, so it won't necessarily have to engage at all.


Just an FYI, but the F-35 was not conceived nor designed to counter the 'current fighters' as you say. In fact, the very basic entry level block III aircraft (with all it's imperfections requiring immediate upgrades to satisfy Partners and potential FMS) is only anticipated to be IOC for Partners by around 2017/2018, now.

A hypothetical block IV (a more mature, proven F-35) will need to be countering the finest aircrafts coming on line by around 2020. mind you.

Hardly today's fighters. God speed..


Even a Block III will more than match Tranche 3/F4 systems, not to mention the later blocks.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 01:13
by geogen
But that is an assumption being gambled on, 8 yrs out, when we don't yet have a proven, mature concept - given the all-new-aircraft approach vs evolved approach - to even base those extremely hypothetical assumptions on! It just seems incredibly reckless, mis-calculated and irresponsible, I'm sorry.

Perhaps what will speak louder will be any observed greater intent by partners and potential FMS customers to delay orders accordingly to ensure a mature block IV delivery (1-2 yr delay), with expected minimal requirements enabling the envisioned baseline 5th gen advantages, such as: improved crypto upgrades, ICP upgrade for improved comms, Power/Thermal management modifications, streaming video/pointer/ moving target ID w/SAR upgrades, wideband COM infrastructure additions, and additional sensor integration expected for the block IV? (potential IOC with Partners by 2019-2020?)

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 06:01
by Corsair1963
Listening to some members. Makes me wonder if they think every F-35 flying a mission together are going to equipped with the same Weapons Load????

Clearly, a squadron of F-35 could have part equipped with 2-AMRAAMS and Multiple PGM's. While a number of the other F-35's could be equipped solely with AAM's. Of course the mix would depend on the threat........


Really, we need to get off this two dimensional thinking!

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 06:28
by Conan
Corsair1963 wrote:Listening to some members. Makes me wonder if they think every F-35 flying a mission together are going to equipped with the same Weapons Load????

Clearly, a squadron of F-35 could have part equipped with 2-AMRAAMS and Multiple PGM's. While a number of the other F-35's could be equipped solely with AAM's. Of course the mix would depend on the threat........


Really, we need to get off this two dimensional thinking!


Precisely. People are FAR too hung up on the basic testing warload of 2x AMRAAM and 2x 2000lbs PGM's as THE operational warload for the F-35.

it is NOT. It is a representative warload for baseline testing purposes. It is not "the warload" that is going to address every threat?

If more missiles are required, SOME aircraft in the force packages will carry them. Some might sacrifice SOME of the F-35's LO nature to do this, whilst others will maintain a FULL LO capability.

It is called TACTICS people. Forces fight in a structured, systematic way in the modern era. Not in 1 v 1 aerial battles and the F-35 will NOT be fighting alone. EVERY operation will see the F-35 work alongside, F-22's or F-15's or F/A-18 Super Hornets or Eurofighters or Gripens etc.

What it will bring to the table IS different to what these other aircraft can. It will add to the capability of ANY force not detract from it and it's capability will be more than sufficient for any force that employs it.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 06:49
by deadseal
[/quote]
Has there been an issue with AMRAAM fins falling off in flight?[/quote]
Yes. Weapons fail all the time. Much like any mechanical device. You never shoot once and turn away.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 07:00
by deadseal
Conan wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Listening to some members. Makes me wonder if they think every F-35 flying a mission together are going to equipped with the same Weapons Load????

Clearly, a squadron of F-35 could have part equipped with 2-AMRAAMS and Multiple PGM's. While a number of the other F-35's could be equipped solely with AAM's. Of course the mix would depend on the threat........


Really, we need to get off this two dimensional thinking!


Precisely. People are FAR too hung up on the basic testing warload of 2x AMRAAM and 2x 2000lbs PGM's as THE operational warload for the F-35.

it is NOT. It is a representative warload for baseline testing purposes. It is not "the warload" that is going to address every threat?

If more missiles are required, SOME aircraft in the force packages will carry them. Some might sacrifice SOME of the F-35's LO nature to do this, whilst others will maintain a FULL LO capability.

It is called TACTICS people. Forces fight in a structured, systematic way in the modern era. Not in 1 v 1 aerial battles and the F-35 will NOT be fighting alone. EVERY operation will see the F-35 work alongside, F-22's or F-15's or F/A-18 Super Hornets or Eurofighters or Gripens etc.

What it will bring to the table IS different to what these other aircraft can. It will add to the capability of ANY force not detract from it and it's capability will be more than sufficient for any force that employs it.


Sounds like your saying its a multi role fighter! I see the first block carrying only 4 missiles and remaining stealthy...that is not very many but hell...what can the rcs pricetag be of 4 more missiles hanging when they are pointing down your intake right Plus i bet the RCS of 2 external GBU-31/10's would be a notional addition to expected contact range. Is there a stealthy centerline bag to carry extra fuel like the gun pod?

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 07:31
by Corsair1963
deadseal wrote:
Conan wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Listening to some members. Makes me wonder if they think every F-35 flying a mission together are going to equipped with the same Weapons Load????

Clearly, a squadron of F-35 could have part equipped with 2-AMRAAMS and Multiple PGM's. While a number of the other F-35's could be equipped solely with AAM's. Of course the mix would depend on the threat........


Really, we need to get off this two dimensional thinking!


Precisely. People are FAR too hung up on the basic testing warload of 2x AMRAAM and 2x 2000lbs PGM's as THE operational warload for the F-35.

it is NOT. It is a representative warload for baseline testing purposes. It is not "the warload" that is going to address every threat?

If more missiles are required, SOME aircraft in the force packages will carry them. Some might sacrifice SOME of the F-35's LO nature to do this, whilst others will maintain a FULL LO capability.

It is called TACTICS people. Forces fight in a structured, systematic way in the modern era. Not in 1 v 1 aerial battles and the F-35 will NOT be fighting alone. EVERY operation will see the F-35 work alongside, F-22's or F-15's or F/A-18 Super Hornets or Eurofighters or Gripens etc.

What it will bring to the table IS different to what these other aircraft can. It will add to the capability of ANY force not detract from it and it's capability will be more than sufficient for any force that employs it.


Sounds like your saying its a multi role fighter! I see the first block carrying only 4 missiles and remaining stealthy...that is not very many but hell...what can the rcs pricetag be of 4 more missiles hanging when they are pointing down your intake right Plus i bet the RCS of 2 external GBU-31/10's would be a notional addition to expected contact range. Is there a stealthy centerline bag to carry extra fuel like the gun pod?


The increased RCS of 4-AMRAAM's would be great and offers a considerable amount of drag.............not good in a Air Superiority Mission.


Also, while the initial Blk of F-35's will only carry 4-AAM's internally. That will quickly be supplemented by six on Blk 5.


BTW Its likely the capability to carry 6-AAM's internally will be back-fitted to early blocks soon after its introduced.......as a matter of fact you can count on it. :wink:

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 11:42
by wrightwing
deadseal wrote:Has there been an issue with AMRAAM fins falling off in flight?
Yes. Weapons fail all the time. Much like any mechanical device. You never shoot once and turn away.


So there has been a AMRAAM with a fin fall off then? Or are you just grabbing at straws?

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 11:47
by wrightwing
geogen wrote:But that is an assumption being gambled on, 8 yrs out, when we don't yet have a proven, mature concept - given the all-new-aircraft approach vs evolved approach - to even base those extremely hypothetical assumptions on! It just seems incredibly reckless, mis-calculated and irresponsible, I'm sorry.

Perhaps what will speak louder will be any observed greater intent by partners and potential FMS customers to delay orders accordingly to ensure a mature block IV delivery (1-2 yr delay), with expected minimal requirements enabling the envisioned baseline 5th gen advantages, such as: improved crypto upgrades, ICP upgrade for improved comms, Power/Thermal management modifications, streaming video/pointer/ moving target ID w/SAR upgrades, wideband COM infrastructure additions, and additional sensor integration expected for the block IV? (potential IOC with Partners by 2019-2020?)


What upgraded have been funded on the competition, that will be equal or superior in the time frame we're talking about? The very first F-35s(even the Block II) will have AESA/EOTS/EODAS/advanced ESM/ECM/VLO, and greater situational awareness.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 11:54
by wrightwing
deadseal wrote:
Sounds like your saying its a multi role fighter!


That's precisely what it is.
I see the first block carrying only 4 missiles and remaining stealthy

It'll only be a couple of years after the initial Blocks come out till they can carry 6 missiles internally, and the earlier blocks will be upgraded to the latest standard. Remember- that's 6 missiles on a VLO aircraft that can engage targets before they even know something's there.

...that is not very many but hell...what can the rcs pricetag be of 4 more missiles hanging when they are pointing down your intake


It'd be better than the competition, but it'd no longer be VLO. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on the mission, but not the load out you'd be flying over unsanitized airspace with.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 19:40
by deadseal
wrightwing wrote:
deadseal wrote:Has there been an issue with AMRAAM fins falling off in flight?
Yes. Weapons fail all the time. Much like any mechanical device. You never shoot once and turn away.


So there has been a AMRAAM with a fin fall off then? Or are you just grabbing at straws?


wow...ok you win....amraams work 100% of the time and have never ever failed in flight. If your talking about the original post the example was to highlight mechanical failure of a weapon. Please read and/or understand before you accuse someone of "grasping at straws"javascript:emoticon(':oops:'). If you truly believe that the amraam is a magic missile and works everytime...please reference the 422 test evaluation and realize that the USAF does not assume this(and rightly so). Thats why there is BFM :) when your 9x fuze fails and zings right past him its time for guns. Maybe you drive a honda and thats why you assume all mechanical devices work for ever?

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 19:45
by deadseal
wrightwing wrote:
deadseal wrote:
Sounds like your saying its a multi role fighter!


That's precisely what it is.
I see the first block carrying only 4 missiles and remaining stealthy

It'll only be a couple of years after the initial Blocks come out till they can carry 6 missiles internally, and the earlier blocks will be upgraded to the latest standard. Remember- that's 6 missiles on a VLO aircraft that can engage targets before they even know something's there.

...that is not very many but hell...what can the rcs pricetag be of 4 more missiles hanging when they are pointing down your intake





It'd be better than the competition, but it'd no longer be VLO. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on the mission, but not the load out you'd be flying over unsanitized airspace with.


is your callsign captain obvious perchance? no sh*t its a multi role fighter. dude SARCASM. Your killing me here Unsanitized airspace? thats the whole point....4 missiles for an OCA sweep? are you kidding me? that is the point of the discussion which some other dude already answered. I think you.......oh jesus never mind....see moniter, this is restraint.
cheers

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2010, 19:57
by fiskerwad
deadseal wrote:is your callsign captain obvious perchance? no sh*t its a multi role fighter. dude SARCASM. Your killing me here Unsanitized airspace? thats the whole point....4 missiles for an OCA sweep? are you kidding me? that is the point of the discussion which some other dude already answered. I think you.......oh jesus never mind....see moniter, this is restraint.
cheers



Too funny to resist, my apologies.
fisk

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2010, 00:29
by spazsinbad
Here! Take this Cap'n Bleedin' Obvious: :twisted: (for da turtles to crawl under) :cheers:

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2010, 02:01
by outlaw162
“I'm not Captain Oblivious.”
~ Captain Obvious on Captain Oblivious

"This guy's observational skills are absolutely impeccable.”
~ Captain Sarcasm on Captain Obvious

“Captain Obvious tends to confuse things”
~ Captain Understatement on Captain Obvious

“What the hell is going on?!?”
~ Captain Obvious

:cheers:

OL

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2010, 11:29
by wrightwing
deadseal wrote:
wow...ok you win....amraams work 100% of the time and have never ever failed in flight. If your talking about the original post the example was to highlight mechanical failure of a weapon. Please read and/or understand before you accuse someone of "grasping at straws"javascript:emoticon(':oops:'). If you truly believe that the amraam is a magic missile and works everytime...please reference the 422 test evaluation and realize that the USAF does not assume this(and rightly so). Thats why there is BFM :) when your 9x fuze fails and zings right past him its time for guns. Maybe you drive a honda and thats why you assume all mechanical devices work for ever?


Where did I say they work 100% of the time? You mentioned a specific event of fins falling off, yet provided no source/statistics/etc.... I'd wager that the vast majority of the time, if there's a problem with the weapon, it's electronic, engine issue, or failure to release properly. Assuming that the missile is functioning correctly, it still has to be fired within its envelope to ensure a good probability of kill. I don't disagree that guns are an important back up plan, but was just questioning the frequency that weapons were falling apart, while attached to an aircraft.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2010, 11:38
by wrightwing
deadseal wrote:

Unsanitized airspace? thats the whole point....4 missiles for an OCA sweep? are you kidding me? that is the point of the discussion which some other dude already answered. I think you.......oh jesus never mind....see moniter, this is restraint.
cheers


4 AMRAAMS(or Meteors) at IOC. 6 shortly thereafter(and possibly more when JDRADM comes online). Unsanitized meaning double digit SAMs. Presumably the F-22s and F-15Cs would be the primary means of sanitizing the airspace of enemy fighters(not because the F-35 isn't capable, but so it can focus on taking out ground threats). You don't seem to make a distinction in tactics between a VLO aircraft w/ 4-6 missiles, and a non-stealthy one. The VLO aircraft is going to be able to dictate the terms of engagements. If the F-35 has to use guns, then the pilot isn't flying very smart(or he's slipping in unannounced).

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2010, 21:12
by deadseal
Sigh. You dont get and i ain't gonna waste 3.69 minutes of my life chewing you out. All i'll say is read the thread. Much like listening, don't just wait for your turn to talk. Your only excuse now is that you don't speak english and therefore are a russian spy and we should have traded you back, but they probobly didn't want you anyway.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air load

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2010, 00:02
by wrightwing
deadseal wrote:Sigh. You dont get and i ain't gonna waste 3.69 minutes of my life chewing you out. All i'll say is read the thread. Much like listening, don't just wait for your turn to talk. Your only excuse now is that you don't speak english and therefore are a russian spy and we should have traded you back, but they probobly didn't want you anyway.


Here's the BLUF- not too long after F-35s enter service, they'll carry 6 AAMs internally(and likely more when the JDRADMs enter service). They're also likely to have stealthy pods for additional external missiles. You're hung up on the IOC capability, rather than what a typical F-35's going to look like for the vast majority of its career. Most F-35 foes won't know what hit them, as they'll be engaged from BVR, outside their(the foe) detection range. If a missile doesn't work, then they'll fire one of the other missiles. It's not as if the plan is to merge, unless it's unavoidable. The plan is to stay outside detection ranges, and fly to the strengths of the F-35 using its situational awareness advantages.

Re: RE: Re: RE: F35A Air to Air loadout??

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2015, 21:17
by SnakeHandler
SpudmanWP wrote:
munny wrote:Is there a document somewhere which shows the plan for 6 missiles "INTERNALLY" at block 5? I've seen a diagram showing additions at various block levels but it just says 6 x AIM-120, not 6 x AIM120 Internally.


No, there is not much detail about Blk short of the Norway docs.

At SDD IOC (Blk 3) the F-35 can carry 14 AAMs (Internal and External). What else could the "Six AAMs" of Blk 5 refer to but internal?

Image


Any updates on when this loadout will happen?

Re: F35A Air to Air loadout?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2015, 21:59
by spazsinbad
External weapons are .... What is missing from that graphic are the SIX internal missiles. Oops I see you got that already.

FWIW the Norwegian 2008 Block Upgrade Plan from: http://norway.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/v ... _dista.pdf

Re: F35A Air to Air loadout?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2015, 21:10
by SnakeHandler
Just hadn't seen them carry the double MRLs yet and was wondering when that'll happen.

Re: F35A Air to Air loadout?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2015, 00:51
by SpudmanWP
There is a post here somewhere where a LM employee verified that the 14 AAM loadout (12 AMRAAM & 2 9x) was a Block 3F capability.

Re: F35A Air to Air loadout?

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2015, 19:53
by checksixx
SnakeHandler wrote:Just hadn't seen them carry the double MRLs yet and was wondering when that'll happen.


Should be no problem externally at all. Weight and drop tests already confirmed...a number of years ago.

Image

Re: F35A Air to Air loadout?

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2015, 22:17
by deadseal
could you imagine 14 a-a missles for a DCA Vul?

I would go out 12x2..... I always hated being skosh. especially with a 9M.......thats where i "code 3" it as a limfac on the taxi out and i magically get another slammer