F35A Air to Air loadout?

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 09 Jul 2010, 08:41

munny wrote:Is there a document somewhere which shows the plan for 6 missiles "INTERNALLY" at block 5? I've seen a diagram showing additions at various block levels but it just says 6 x AIM-120, not 6 x AIM120 Internally.

No, there is not much detail about Blk short of the Norway docs.

At SDD IOC (Blk 3) the F-35 can carry 14 AAMs (Internal and External). What else could the "Six AAMs" of Blk 5 refer to but internal?

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 09 Jul 2010, 08:42

Deleted duplicate

deadseal · by **deadseal** » 09 Jul 2010, 11:00

what about the tactical implications? Lets say standard AI scenario. You have all your bombs internally to remain stealthy. Well the 120's hanging on the outside will give you away right? So in reality you could not remain stealthy and be self escort. Nor could you go out like a viper in an OCA sweep with 6 120's. So what is the answer? Do you shoot your missiles when you get inside an SA-10 MEZ so he can't target you? Do you rely on the raptors to shape the air picture like we do now? I guess my question is what is the tactical applicatiion of only 4 missils internally. I don't know the RCS of 2 GBu31s' or 10 external 120's.

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 09 Jul 2010, 12:37

deadseal wrote:what about the tactical implications? Lets say standard AI scenario. You have all your bombs internally to remain stealthy. Well the 120's hanging on the outside will give you away right? So in reality you could not remain stealthy and be self escort. Nor could you go out like a viper in an OCA sweep with 6 120's. So what is the answer? Do you shoot your missiles when you get inside an SA-10 MEZ so he can't target you? Do you rely on the raptors to shape the air picture like we do now? I guess my question is what is the tactical applicatiion of only 4 missils internally. I don't know the RCS of 2 GBu31s' or 10 external 120's.

It's not an either or situation. The F-35 can carry 2 AMRAAMs and 2 2000lb JDAMs(or 8 SDBs, 2 JSMs, 2 JSWOWs, etc..) internally for stealthy strike missions, or 6 AMRAAMS internally for OCA. In situations where max stealth isn't required, then external stores could also be carried. In other words, no external stores for engaging S-300/400.

munny · by **munny** » 09 Jul 2010, 14:46

SpudmanWP wrote:At SDD IOC (Blk 3) the F-35 can carry 14 AAMs (Internal and External). What else could the "Six AAMs" of Blk 5 refer to but internal?

Thats what I figured, internal is implied by the fact it carries more than 6 externally.

stereospace · by **stereospace** » 09 Jul 2010, 15:04

bjr1028 wrote:MBDA is developing a trapeze launcher on the door station for ASRAAM.

Are there plans to blindfold the missiles on the trapeze, just to make things more exciting?

LMAggie · by **LMAggie** » 09 Jul 2010, 17:28

geogen wrote:I concur, Spud. I was just saying that RAAF would likely Not be seeing Blk 5 6x-AMRAAM carrying IOC in 2017 as was suggested. More likely 2019(?) for them and other partners in a best-case, (unlike USAF which might define IOC differently and be on a different IOC timeframe).

I don't think that this is a given, although its a possibility. This program is different than programs, many projects are done with the partners in mind.

deadseal · by **deadseal** » 10 Jul 2010, 01:40

It's not an either or situation. The F-35 can carry 2 AMRAAMs and 2 2000lb JDAMs(or 8 SDBs, 2 JSMs, 2 JSWOWs, etc..) internally for stealthy strike missions, or 6 AMRAAMS internally for OCA. In situations where max stealth isn't required, then external stores could also be carried. In other words, no external stores for engaging S-300/400.[/quote]

I meant to specify the block that cannot carry 6 internal. Going out with only 2 A-A missiles on self escort is not a good idea. I guess what i am saying is that the f-35 cannot self escort against a high AOB with only 2 missiles. Sometimes the 120 doesn't work much like a gbu-12 fin falling off in flight etc. etc. In the block 5 will it be able to carry 4 missiles and 2 2000lbs ers'? That would be the more traditional loadout that we fly with today. And make me much more comfortable at push time (sts).

geogen · by **geogen** » 10 Jul 2010, 07:16

SpudmanWP wrote: Do you really think it will take the RAAF 2 years from receipt to IOC especially since this will not be their first batch of F-35s?

Hard to say, and I'll concur with LMaggie on that point. I'm only speculating that the first IOC batch of RAAF a/c (or USAF for that matter, expected earlier in 2016) will be block III? Perhaps a year later, enter blk4? And then 1 yr after this (best case scenario), enter blk 5?? 2019 IOC?

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 11 Jul 2010, 13:30

deadseal wrote:

I meant to specify the block that cannot carry 6 internal.

From IOC the F-35 can carry 4 AAMs internal. It wouldn't carry any A2G ordinance for OCA/DCA.

Going out with only 2 A-A missiles on self escort is not a good idea. I guess what i am saying is that the f-35 cannot self escort against a high AOB with only 2 missiles.

A- the difference between the F-35 and current fighters is that it will enjoy contempt of engagement, so it won't necessarily have to engage at all. Remember it'll enjoy huge improvements in situational awareness, combined with a VLO airframe.
B- not every F-35 in the strike package has to carry A2G ordinance. Some may carry 4 AAMs(or 6 in later blocks).
C- F-15C, F-18E/F, and F-22s will likely be somewhere in the vicinity as well.

Sometimes the 120 doesn't work much like a gbu-12 fin falling off in flight etc. etc.

Has there been an issue with AMRAAM fins falling off in flight?

geogen · by **geogen** » 11 Jul 2010, 21:29

the difference between the F-35 and current fighters is that it will enjoy contempt of engagement, so it won't necessarily have to engage at all.

Just an FYI, but the F-35 was not conceived nor designed to counter the 'current fighters' as you say. In fact, the very basic entry level block III aircraft (with all it's imperfections requiring immediate upgrades to satisfy Partners and potential FMS) is only anticipated to be IOC for Partners by around 2017/2018, now.

A hypothetical block IV (a more mature, proven F-35) will need to be countering the finest aircrafts coming on line by around 2020. mind you.

Hardly today's fighters. God speed..

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 11 Jul 2010, 23:03

geogen wrote:
the difference between the F-35 and current fighters is that it will enjoy contempt of engagement, so it won't necessarily have to engage at all.

Just an FYI, but the F-35 was not conceived nor designed to counter the 'current fighters' as you say. In fact, the very basic entry level block III aircraft (with all it's imperfections requiring immediate upgrades to satisfy Partners and potential FMS) is only anticipated to be IOC for Partners by around 2017/2018, now.

A hypothetical block IV (a more mature, proven F-35) will need to be countering the finest aircrafts coming on line by around 2020. mind you.

Hardly today's fighters. God speed..

Even a Block III will more than match Tranche 3/F4 systems, not to mention the later blocks.

geogen · by **geogen** » 12 Jul 2010, 01:13

But that is an assumption being gambled on, 8 yrs out, when we don't yet have a proven, mature concept - given the all-new-aircraft approach vs evolved approach - to even base those extremely hypothetical assumptions on! It just seems incredibly reckless, mis-calculated and irresponsible, I'm sorry.

Perhaps what will speak louder will be any observed greater intent by partners and potential FMS customers to delay orders accordingly to ensure a mature block IV delivery (1-2 yr delay), with expected minimal requirements enabling the envisioned baseline 5th gen advantages, such as: improved crypto upgrades, ICP upgrade for improved comms, Power/Thermal management modifications, streaming video/pointer/ moving target ID w/SAR upgrades, wideband COM infrastructure additions, and additional sensor integration expected for the block IV? (potential IOC with Partners by 2019-2020?)

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 12 Jul 2010, 06:01

Listening to some members. Makes me wonder if they think every F-35 flying a mission together are going to equipped with the same Weapons Load????

Clearly, a squadron of F-35 could have part equipped with 2-AMRAAMS and Multiple PGM's. While a number of the other F-35's could be equipped solely with AAM's. Of course the mix would depend on the threat........

Really, we need to get off this two dimensional thinking!

Conan · by **Conan** » 12 Jul 2010, 06:28

Corsair1963 wrote:Listening to some members. Makes me wonder if they think every F-35 flying a mission together are going to equipped with the same Weapons Load????

Clearly, a squadron of F-35 could have part equipped with 2-AMRAAMS and Multiple PGM's. While a number of the other F-35's could be equipped solely with AAM's. Of course the mix would depend on the threat........

Really, we need to get off this two dimensional thinking!

Precisely. People are FAR too hung up on the basic testing warload of 2x AMRAAM and 2x 2000lbs PGM's as THE operational warload for the F-35.

it is NOT. It is a representative warload for baseline testing purposes. It is not "the warload" that is going to address every threat?

If more missiles are required, SOME aircraft in the force packages will carry them. Some might sacrifice SOME of the F-35's LO nature to do this, whilst others will maintain a FULL LO capability.

It is called TACTICS people. Forces fight in a structured, systematic way in the modern era. Not in 1 v 1 aerial battles and the F-35 will NOT be fighting alone. EVERY operation will see the F-35 work alongside, F-22's or F-15's or F/A-18 Super Hornets or Eurofighters or Gripens etc.

What it will bring to the table IS different to what these other aircraft can. It will add to the capability of ANY force not detract from it and it's capability will be more than sufficient for any force that employs it.