F-35 newest competitor on the same flight deck!

Sub-scale and Full-Scale Aerial Targets and RPAs - Remotely-Piloted Aircraft
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spazsinbad

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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 09:33

"Some 'Mothers' Do UAV 'Em" PDF attached with an .FLV video embedded in the PDF page. Youse'll need Adobe Reader 10.1.1 to view it. Any other viewers I dunno. ['Mother' is the home carrier in NavySpeak.]

For those who dunno: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Some_Mothers_Do_'Ave_'Em
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UAVscreenshotCarrierApproachAnimation.jpg
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arkadyrenko

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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 16:20

One wonders how they're going to fix the following problems:

1) Communications with UAVs, especially in an environment when you want the UAV to be totally stealthy and when communication networks may be compromised.
2) UAV navigation without GPS
3) UAV finding the carrier when the carrier trying its hardest to not be found. This will be a particularly tricky problem because the long duration of the UAV missions means the carrier could move quite a distance during the missions duration.

On the other hand, UAVs will be necessary to return long range strike capacity to the carrier flight deck.
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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 16:47

arkadyrenko wrote:One wonders how they're going to fix the following problems:

1) Communications with UAVs, especially in an environment when you want the UAV to be totally stealthy and when communication networks may be compromised.
2) UAV navigation without GPS
3) UAV finding the carrier when the carrier trying its hardest to not be found. This will be a particularly tricky problem because the long duration of the UAV missions means the carrier could move quite a distance during the missions duration.


A 4th problem; Viruses

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10 ... one-fleet/
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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 19:20

'Onboard JPALS' [+DGPS] (NOT JUST LAAS Afloat) is the key. The Carrier UAVs are autonomous also. Read up on JPALS on several forum threads. Here is onsuch:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... rt-15.html

with other links to other info on JPALS capacity there such as:

And on similar thread: http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... e&start=30

JPALS Program Update CAPT Drew Williams, US Navy NAVAIR PMA-213 15 APRIL 2010
http://www.afceaboston.com/documents/ev ... 20Williams).pdf (2.5Mb)

http://attach.high-g.net/attachments/jp ... nt_100.gif
http://attach.high-g.net/attachments/jp ... ps_214.gif

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Last edited by spazsinbad on 10 Oct 2011, 19:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 19:26

That slide is pretty interesting, and it has to be hiding something.

It says that ship to airplane contact at 200 and 60nm work even under EMCOM. This suggests several possibilities. One, the ship has to broadcast and break EMCOM and the slide is basically useless. A ship cannot broadcast its position and be under EMCOM. Especially if the other side has UAVs up, with sophisticated electronic tracking systems, looking for you. It gets worse, does anyone think that E-2s can enforce a 200nm clean zone from stealth UAVs? That seems unlikely; though it should be an area for future research.

Second, there is a provision for another platform to contact the UAVs (E-2?). Third, super secret comm technology.

For viruses, I think that autonomy will probably be the best defense against viruses. Think of the UCAS as a returnable and re-directable cruise missile. Especially for long range recon missions. But, those problems will have to be fixed before UAVs get used in a full war involving two roughly technologically comparable countries.
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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 19:31

One word, SATCOM, ie no direct line of communication and does not give away it's location.
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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 19:31

This thread page has some answers to the super secret secure one way communication issues: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... rt-15.html Shipboard GPS Reference Station.

http://attach.high-g.net/attachments/jp ... pt_213.gif

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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 23:30

I think I have the technology now: essentially its a radio transmitter on the carrier which broadcasts a signal to all and sundry which is designed to contain no information about the broadcasters position. Probably this contains inherent data issues, so the information encoded in the signal has to be minimalistic. Hence why at 200nm there is much less information than at 50 and 20 nm.

The key question is how long can the Navy rely on that signal not being useful? I bet they'll have to offshore that signal onto a UAV orbiting near the carrier and only within say 20nm do the actual hand-off to the carrier for approach control. Then we'll have UAVs controlling UAVs....
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Unread post10 Oct 2011, 23:47

arkadyrenko wrote:I think I have the technology now: essentially its a radio transmitter on the carrier which broadcasts a signal to all and sundry which is designed to contain no information about the broadcasters position. Probably this contains inherent data issues, so the information encoded in the signal has to be minimalistic. Hence why at 200nm there is much less information than at 50 and 20 nm.

The key question is how long can the Navy rely on that signal not being useful? I bet they'll have to offshore that signal onto a UAV orbiting near the carrier and only within say 20nm do the actual hand-off to the carrier for approach control. Then we'll have UAVs controlling UAVs....


This is the nature of differential GPS. The corrections carried in the signal to UAV are with the carrier as the reference system and become less applicable or relevant with distance as the corrections adjust for local error. This error become increasingly "random" with distance and at 200 nm we are essentially working with the accuracy of the inertial/GPS navigation system of the UAV.
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Unread post11 Oct 2011, 02:02

The problem for the carrier is that any EM signal it creates can be used to triangulate its position, and thereby enable a missile attack against it. I didn't really look into the issue of differential GPS, which seems to be focused more on boosting the UAV's positional accuracy.

So, if the carrier beams to SATCOM or GPS, that's breaking EMCOM. The question is how to broadcast its position to UAVs without broadcasting its position to Chinese UAVs / ELINT Sats / Subs etc.
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Unread post11 Oct 2011, 02:13

Unmanned X-47B Begins Envelope Expansion Tests over Edwards

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The X-47B Unmanned Combat Air System Demonstration aircraft reached a major milestone Sept. 30 when it retracted its landing gear and flew in its cruise configuration for the first time.


http://defense-update.com/20111010_unma ... wards.html
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Unread post11 Oct 2011, 02:18

SATCOM can only be detected if you are between the carrier and the satellite (ie it's directional in nature).
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spazsinbad

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Unread post11 Oct 2011, 03:00

SWP, Nice photo of dat hook with the side view looking like a flying saucer. OhOH here we go....
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Unread post11 Oct 2011, 03:30

From previous page a look at USAF future (ships are included but not on graphic - must be USAF). New backbone of large USAF aircraft in 2018. USAF JPALS Accuracy Ashore from a Jan 2009 PDF (lots of good stuff - MADL mentioned also - amongst many other capabilities). I'll guess also that the X-47B will have a good NAV package that will allow for finding the carrier in an area of interest - if long range 'direct' finding becomes difficult - by robotic navigation. Carrier pilots develop a good sense of where the carrier might be after a sortie over blue water because the carrier will follow a plan - perhaps not but likely you may argue - and this is carrier route is given in the preflight briefing:

Electronic Systems Center New Horizons Symposium

http://www.afceaboston.com/documents/ev ... 20ELSW.pdf (9Mb)

"Rapidly Deploy Adverse Weather, Adverse Terrain, Survivable, Maintainable, and Interoperable Precision Approach and Landing System (Land and Sea) That Supports the Warfighter When Ceiling and Visibility are Limiting Factors"
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"JPALS Increment 2
- 200 ft/ ½ SM; Supports Auto-Land, Mobile/Fixed Local Area Differential GPS
- Customers: Air Force, Army, Navy & Marines"
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Unread post11 Oct 2011, 09:01

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