Intercepting a "Gyrocopter"

Helicopters and tilt-rotor aircraft
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smitty14

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Unread post16 Apr 2015, 16:04

I'm sure everyone's heard the story about the mailman who landed a gyro on the capital lawn. This story kind of reminds me of the guy who landed his rented Cessna in the middle of Red Square in 1987.

Anyways, what can be done to intercept these small aircraft? I assume that gyrocopters don't have any kind of IFF or transponders. From what I've read, the mailman wasn't tracked by NORAD. Not sure if the DC ANG's F-16's are capable of tracking such a small craft that's flying knap of the earth with the IR signature of a push mower.
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eloise

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Unread post16 Apr 2015, 17:18

smitty14 wrote:I'm sure everyone's heard the story about the mailman who landed a gyro on the capital lawn. This story kind of reminds me of the guy who landed his rented Cessna in the middle of Red Square in 1987.

Anyways, what can be done to intercept these small aircraft? I assume that gyrocopters don't have any kind of IFF or transponders. From what I've read, the mailman wasn't tracked by NORAD. Not sure if the DC ANG's F-16's are capable of tracking such a small craft that's flying knap of the earth with the IR signature of a push mower.

the gyro copter wasnt tracked by NORAD because it fly too low, due to radar horizon limitation NORAD radar located really far cant detect or track it
about your questions : can f-16 detect, track, intercept the gyro copter, yes they can, f-16 shot down several small UAV before , and modern IR system even allow pilot to see human so the low IR signature of the Gyro copter isn't really big problem
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smitty14

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Unread post16 Apr 2015, 18:32

the gyro copter wasnt tracked by NORAD because it fly too low, due to radar horizon limitation NORAD radar located really far cant detect or track it
about your questions : can f-16 detect, track, intercept the gyro copter, yes they can, f-16 shot down several small UAV before , and modern IR system even allow pilot to see human so the low IR signature of the Gyro copter isn't really big problem[/quote]

I understand that. But my question really is, what's the defensive strategy for these types of scenarios? A viper isn't just going to be slinging sidewinders at gyrocopter flying a few dozen feet off the ground in the middle of DC.
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eloise

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Unread post16 Apr 2015, 19:26

smitty14 wrote:I understand that. But my question really is, what's the defensive strategy for these types of scenarios? A viper isn't just going to be slinging sidewinders at gyrocopter flying a few dozen feet off the ground in the middle of DC.

using the 20 mm cannon?
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mrigdon

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Unread post16 Apr 2015, 19:58

eloise wrote:
smitty14 wrote:I understand that. But my question really is, what's the defensive strategy for these types of scenarios? A viper isn't just going to be slinging sidewinders at gyrocopter flying a few dozen feet off the ground in the middle of DC.

using the 20 mm cannon?


Just flip over to CNN and see if you can catch footage of exactly what they did. It probably has a lot more to do with men on the ground than planes in the air. There are plenty of eyes around the Capital. A low-flying plane doesn't go unnoticed.

I don't think these gyrocopters can carry much in the way of payload. They don't get much speed. And if you're trying to fly under the radar, then you're flying so low you won't get much kinetic energy by pushing a bomb over the side. I would imagine Secret Service sharpshooters could easily hit the pilot at these low altitudes.

At this point, the White House and the Capital building, along with the various office buildings alongside, surely have procedures for dealing with another terrorist attack akin to what happened on 9/11. People would be evacuated to safe locations. Even if you carried a bomb, chances are you'd only do property damage to nearby government buildings.

I sincerely doubt (I hope they wouldn't) shoot one of these things down over DC. Let it land and blow up relatively harmlessly. But if one of these copters was carrying a bomb and an F-16 shot it down over some other part of DC (where people aren't prepared for this sort of thing), then a lot of civilians would be killed. Best to let the copter land on the lawn of the Capital building and then deal with it.
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structuresguy

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Unread post17 Apr 2015, 18:08

eloise wrote:using the 20 mm cannon?


Ya because that's substantially less dangerous :doh:. The last thing we need an incident like this again but this time with fatalities.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article1241.html
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vilters

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Unread post17 Apr 2015, 20:57

Well, let us "assume" a fighter got airborne in time, and got close enough.

All the Figher has to do is pull a high energy, high "G" turn close to and in the flightpath of the craft..

The vortex of a high energy, high "G" fighter aircraft turn, right in front of a gyrocopter will make it crash.

Remember, it is a GYROCOPTER.
Any negative pressure and it drops from the sky like a rock.

It is one of the basics of gyrocopter flying : IT CAN NOT HAVE NEGATIVE G through its rotor disk.
Blow the air out of its rotor disk and it drops like a stone.
Force it go fly through your High "G" trun vortex, and done.

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Perhaps such an enery turn, right in the flightpath is even enough to take out a small helicopter or small GA aircraft.

But you"ll need a hell of a fighter pilot to pull it off.
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vilters

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Unread post17 Apr 2015, 21:03

I'd say, An F-15, in a 9G level turn, about 150-200 yards in front.

Game over for the gyro.

He has no time or energy to pull over it.
He can NOT push to go under it. => A gyro can never go negative "G".
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mrigdon

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Unread post17 Apr 2015, 21:14

vilters wrote:I'd say, An F-15, in a 9G level turn, about 150-200 yards in front.

Game over for the gyro.

He has no time or energy to pull over it.
He can NOT push to go under it. => A gyro can never go negative "G".



Again, when and where do you make that decision, scramble a plane, and then carry out this (incredibly stupid?) maneuver? If the gyrocopter's over any developed area (Washington, D.C. has plenty of suburbs) and you pull this trick and the gyrocopter crashes on a playground filled with children, guess what? You just killed a bunch of children on a playground.
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sergei

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Unread post18 Apr 2015, 01:06

mrigdon wrote:
vilters wrote:I'd say, An F-15, in a 9G level turn, about 150-200 yards in front.

Game over for the gyro.

He has no time or energy to pull over it.
He can NOT push to go under it. => A gyro can never go negative "G".



Again, when and where do you make that decision, scramble a plane, and then carry out this (incredibly stupid?) maneuver? If the gyrocopter's over any developed area (Washington, D.C. has plenty of suburbs) and you pull this trick and the gyrocopter crashes on a playground filled with children, guess what? You just killed a bunch of children on a playground.


You will be surprised but worldwide drones kill innocent and children and that the US government? They just do not care.
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FlightDreamz

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Unread post18 Apr 2015, 03:51

I thought of <a href="http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20609795">Mathias Rust</a> landing his Cessna in Red Square too (glad I'm not the only one).
Agree 110% with others that a shootdown of the gyrocopter (even with the gun) would be too dangerous in that situation.
Wonder why the Joint Land Attack Cruise Missile Defense Elevated Netted Sensor (JLENS) aerostat's (seemingly) didn't detect the gyrocopter? Unknowingly found a gap in radar coverage, flew in below it, or was flying too slow to be considered a threat (to some unknown computer algorithm)? Doubt we'll every know for certain but it's fun to speculate. MIght've made a decent hook for a Tom Clancy novel too (I miss him, would love to hear his views on this on CNN or whatever - still can't believe he's passed on).
A fighter without a gun . . . is like an airplane without a wing.— Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF.
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vilters

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Unread post18 Apr 2015, 12:44

Hey, there is even a very- very- easy solution.
You do not need to call for a fighter A/C at all.

If you do not know the gyro, and you do not know who or what is on board? Take it down, no questions asked.

Start the presidential helicopter and appoach from behind, and go hover obove it.

Gyro's have a cruise speed between 50 and 90 Kts at max. No problem "getting to it", come in from behind, and go hover 20 yards above it.

Sleep well gyro.
----------------------
No need for weapons at all in DC. Just blow the air out of its rotor.
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eloise

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Unread post19 Apr 2015, 07:37

Since flare burn at a few thousands degree Celsius, would it be possible for the F-16 to damage Gyrocopter by drop flare on it?
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vilters

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Unread post19 Apr 2015, 13:14

A flare? You are joking right.

I do NOT know the exact numbers any more but: The prop on a light aircraft flying at 150 kts turns at 2500 RPM. (average numbers here.)

To be absolutely 100% sure that a bird will hit a prop blade in horizontal flight, the bird will have to be at least 2 meters long. (again I do not rmember the exact numbers fron the briefing, but I am pretty close)

The rotors on a gyro turn at 300 RPM. (three hundred RPM)

Calculate how long your "flare" will have to be if you want to be 100% sure to hit a rotor blade.

And a "flare is" 5 inch when burning? Reducing to nothing?

Plus: Try to drop a frare "on target", while flying some +/- 300 kts yourself , on a 60 kt target that is nothing more then a seat, a mast and a 2 blade rotor at 300 RPM?

And, it is not such a good idea to drop flares at 200 - 300 ft over a populated area.

For all practical purposes, dropping a flare is a a joke.
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eloise

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Unread post19 Apr 2015, 14:08

vilters wrote:A flare? You are joking right.

I do NOT know the exact numbers any more but: The prop on a light aircraft flying at 150 kts turns at 2500 RPM. (average numbers here.)

To be absolutely 100% sure that a bird will hit a prop blade in horizontal flight, the bird will have to be at least 2 meters long. (again I do not rmember the exact numbers fron the briefing, but I am pretty close)

The rotors on a gyro turn at 300 RPM. (three hundred RPM)

Calculate how long your "flare" will have to be if you want to be 100% sure to hit a rotor blade.

And a "flare is" 5 inch when burning? Reducing to nothing?

Plus: Try to drop a frare "on target", while flying some +/- 300 kts yourself , on a 60 kt target that is nothing more then a seat, a mast and a 2 blade rotor at 300 RPM?

And, it is not such a good idea to drop flares at 200 - 300 ft over a populated area.

how about dropping alot of flares? may be few will hit the airframes ? or at least scare the gyrocopter pilot?
https://youtu.be/aYXkVOSUIy0
:? i think pilot can aim the flares just like they aim the bomb :? ?
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