Raptor down... on it;s belly again

Military aircraft accidents/mishaps.
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popcorn

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Unread post15 Apr 2018, 11:25

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"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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nutshell

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Unread post15 Apr 2018, 13:46

I suppose the damage is easy to repair, isn't it?
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hythelday

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Unread post15 Apr 2018, 14:53

nutshell wrote:I suppose the damage is easy to repair, isn't it?


Nothing a couple dozen million and several years can't solve :roll:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... fly-again/
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Dragon029

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Unread post15 Apr 2018, 15:00

nutshell wrote:I suppose the damage is easy to repair, isn't it?


I wouldn't be surprised if it has a buckled / damaged bulkhead like the last one (as linked by hythelday); I'm confident they'll repair it, but it probably will take quite a while.
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nutshell

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Unread post15 Apr 2018, 17:03

Well, it's all good then.
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zero-one

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Unread post16 Apr 2018, 08:31

The F-22 was at NAS Fallon to support the Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program, better known as Topgun, providing a dissimilar adversary for students to fight against as part of a class graduation exercise. This is a widely known event in which Topgun students take part in a 1v1 fight against an unknown 'surprise' enemy aircraft. Aircraft of all types, from warbirds to foreign fighters, have been brought in to take part in the exercise over the decades.


Interesting, but what happens when you loose to the surprise aircraft? Do you, not graduate?
Because if you'll graduate win or loose, then what is this final exercise for?

But then again, I wouldn't expect all of them to beat a Raptor not holding back in a 1v1 fight.
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neurotech

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 15:45

zero-one wrote:
The F-22 was at NAS Fallon to support the Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program, better known as Topgun, providing a dissimilar adversary for students to fight against as part of a class graduation exercise. This is a widely known event in which Topgun students take part in a 1v1 fight against an unknown 'surprise' enemy aircraft. Aircraft of all types, from warbirds to foreign fighters, have been brought in to take part in the exercise over the decades.


Interesting, but what happens when you loose to the surprise aircraft? Do you, not graduate?
Because if you'll graduate win or loose, then what is this final exercise for?

But then again, I wouldn't expect all of them to beat a Raptor not holding back in a 1v1 fight.

My understanding is that its a graded exercise. As long as the TOPGUN student pilot doesn't do anything really dumb, follows the Training Rules (aka Rules of Engagement) its a passing grade. Loosing to a F-22 doesn't make them a poor or unsatisfactory pilot. For instructors, Its about training to the syllabus and replicating the threat characteristics of the enemy aircraft.

Its worth pointing out that all TOPGUN students are basically screened to be instructors in their fleet squadron, and potentially return to be instructors at TOPGUN.
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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 23:24

:shock: ... next thing you'll tell me there's no Top Gun trophy. :mrgreen:
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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count_to_10

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Unread post19 Apr 2018, 00:03

popcorn wrote::shock: ... next thing you'll tell me there's no Top Gun trophy. :mrgreen:

The navel officer I saw comment on that said something to the effect of “If there was, there would be craters all over the desert.”

Back to the bellyflop: it sounds like this is partially due to raptor pilots raising there gear before climbing out of ground effect or even clearing the end of the runway. Seems kind of cocky.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
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Unread post19 Apr 2018, 01:00

In the amended original link there was speculation that one of the F119s malfunctioned.
There was also mention that one of the nozzles was tilted up while the other was tilted down which I don't see as revealing. There are pics of Raptors in their hangars with nozzles in dissimilar positions.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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popcorn

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Unread post20 Apr 2018, 02:02

There may be some meat to the engine failure theory.
A F119 failed in flight on another Raptor a few days prior to the latest crash.


http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20 ... llon-crash
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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aw2007

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Unread post28 Apr 2018, 10:55

Has the tail # been identified ?
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citanon

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Unread post28 Apr 2018, 19:53

count_to_10 wrote:
Back to the bellyflop: it sounds like this is partially due to raptor pilots raising there gear before climbing out of ground effect or even clearing the end of the runway. Seems kind of cocky.


I thought that might have been a safety thing, to let planes land on their belly when going too fast to safely use their landing gear.

Admittedly, what have me that idea was this accident.
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marsavian

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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 20:53

F-22 pilots are taking off using an incorrect technique

http://alert5.com/2018/11/18/f-22-pilot ... technique/

On Apr. 20, an F-22A assigned to the 90th Fighter Squadron had failed to take off and the jet slid about 6,514 feet down the runway before coming to a stop. Investigators determined that the pilot had incorrect Takeoff and Landing Data (TOLD) for the take off and he failed to apply any corrections to the incorrect TOLD. He had prematurely retracted the landing gear while the jet had insufficient speed to maintain level flight.

The board also found that other F-22 pilots are rotating their aircraft during take off at a lower speed than that calculated by the TOLD. And there is an organizational acceptance to this incorrect technique.

Investigators also found that the F-22 community is overconfident in the aircraft’s ability to take off due to the high thrust generated by the engines. This lead to a decreased emphasis on the take off data


Official Accident Report -

https://www.scribd.com/document/3934734 ... -Fallon-NV
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zero-one

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Unread post19 Nov 2018, 10:37

Is this one of those cases where the margin for error is so large that you forget about it. Next thing you know, you're always in and you actually end up never doing the proper way anymore.
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