164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

[oldiaf]

The chemical attack marks in the map do not refer to the perpetrator wether Iraq or Iran

[old.iraqi.air.force]

And even if I mix Albanians with Andorans: fact is, there was no MiG-21MF-equipped No. 67 Squadron in al-Kut. OK, you admitted that No. 67 was your tippo, but you're still wrong with your new designation.
Whatever: fact is there was no need to re-deploy MiG-21MFs from any other unit to that base, because this was the home of MiG-21bis-equipped

Not correct the bis Squadron deployed at al-Kut mid 1981, No.17 followed by No.9 and then No.14 Squadron MIG-21bis from Nasiriyah AB, Maj. Gen. Mokhalad AbdulKarim served as base commander and he has the whole history of that al-Kut AB since they started in 1971.

No wonder you're convinced IrAF shot down 14+ Iranian F-14s: why should one care about such 'unimportant details' like dates? 'It happened during that war', you said so, so it must be 100% truth, Insh'allah...

I wrote to you on my previous comment especially on Captain Mohsen Sebti MIG-23 pilot (I have to check with them) which mean two person, give it time..almost 40 years of that war, today all of them grandparents.

Oh, really? So who is then 'that' Nawfal I'm talking about?

Capt.Nawfal you refer to (his title/family name) not Shaaban.

Give me a date that's true (in sense of: some Iraqi claim that really resulted in downing of an Iranian F-14), and I'll confirm it.
Complete data on Iranian F-14-losses is available (only one RIO is missing), and actually known to such researchers like me.
Not my fault if half of claims you've posted (and half the 'Medal of Courage' received by Iraqi pilots) are based on little else but hot air.
And: don't expect from me to give you any tips in this regards. I'll not let you twist your stories to suit your truth.

Don't bother your self,i don't need you to confirm whether it's shot down or not many other sources and authors speak about Iran F-14's losses during that war. And the most credible speak is the Iraqi Air Force action's and targets that dealt with it deep inside Iranian territory.

[oldiaf]

I always asked my self when reading media reports about this vague MiG-25 squadron 84 !?!! Even early reports that revealed the truth about Speicher F/A-18 shut down told that Zuhair Dawood MiG-25 was from this fictional squadron 84 !! I wonder who invented it ?! And why ?

[milos984]

...many other sources and authors speak about Iran F-14's losses during that war. And the most credible speak is the Iraqi Air Force action's and targets that dealt with it deep inside Iranian territory.

There is no direct link between IrAF claim on shoting down a Tomcat in 1980 and between IrAF deep strikes on iranian infrastructure in late stage of war.
As I say previously, gun camera film is important but not suficient piece of evidence, to 100% say that IRIAF F-14 was SD.

[mixelflick]

I vaguely recall an Iraqi Mirage F-1 surprising and F-14 and taking it down. Trap like engagement, F-14 was acting as an AWACS.

Old Iraqi AF, any recollection of that one?

[oldiaf]

What was the perception of Iraqi pilots about the F-15C before desert storm ?? Did they fear it more than the F-14 or vice versa ? Since they have experience with the Iranian F-14s ... Also did Iraqi Pilots knew there was F-15E Strike version of the F-15 ?

[tomcooper]

....sigh... so, I do have to search for notes on the name of the pilot in question, plus eye-witness accounts? You insist on all the details to be published here?

Why not if you have irrefutable evidence (photos,videos) prove Iraqi public hang IRIAF F-5E-pilot in Basrah show it to us...

As you like, I'll do so, don't worry.

...which is another pile of nonsense usually spread by 'convinced Iraqis'.
The first to bombard civilians was Iraq, when it hit living quarters of Dezful AB (TFB.4) with Scuds, in late September 1980, killing dozens of civilians. As next, Iraqis obliterated Khorramshahr, Shalamcheh, Howeyzeh, Ardebil and many towns along the border, already in September 1980. Would you like to have a few scans of recce photos showing Iranian towns razed with the ground?

Great and thank you for this proof (Iraqi forces "Army") start to fire back on Iran in September 1980 as you confirmed now, while Iran start to bombing Iraqi cities and towns and villages since 15 June 1980

What 'Iraqi cities and towns' were bombed on 15 June 1980?

If you 'gauge' by such PRBS, it was IrAF that 'started' - by bombing Iran, already in April 1980. Or did you forget the 'holy mission' of Su-20s from No. 1 Squadron...?

Yeah, for a true Ba'thist, the target in question was 'only' some nifty Kurdish village where Barzani brothers were hiding - but that village was still inside Iranian borders, on Iranian soil, within sovereign Iranian territory. I.e.: that was an attack on Iran.

Target was actually completely civilian: not only that Barzanis were nowhere around, but no Iranian military either: Iranian military was de-mobilized at that time. Nearest Army units were at less than 20% of their nominal strenght, most of the IRIAF didn't fly since late 1978...

But no: your Ba'ath PRBS is that they were 'preparing invasion of Iran'...

With all that irrefutable evidence...

What 'irrefutable evidence'?

...the Iranian F-5 pilot. Hassan Ali Reza Lashkari who was shot down over Diyala city in 7 of September 1980 by Maj. Kamal Abdul Sattar Alborznge MIG-21, even weeks before the war..

Typical primitive Iraqi propaganda. I can't believe any sane person is ready to belive this...

If you love to insist on such nonsense, then at least keep in mind: Lashgari flew already the fourth IRIAF jet shot down by Iraqis in September 1980. The first was F-4E flown by Shams-Beigi/Ramezani, second F-4E flown by Eskandari/Ilkhani, and third was Lashgari's wingman...

But because Lashgari was the first to get captured by Iraqi ground troops (who have captured him inside Iran, BTW) clowns like you consider him 'evidence of Iranian aggression'.

Please explain me now: how can you be as stupid as this?

It is so endlessly dumb to consider Lashagri for something like 'evidence of Iranian aggression' - there are no words to describe this properly (or if, then one can only conclude that calling characters believing this 'dumb' would be an offense for any sincere stupids).

Your lovely Saddam ordered invasion of Iran precisely because he knew the Iranian miltary is not in condition to fight: because he expected a swift victory, perhaps a downfall of Mullah regime in Tehran too. And if Iranian miltiary was not in condition to fight, then how comes clowns like you are still insisting on claims like some sort of 'Iranian bombardment of Iraqi cities'...?

We didn't had MIG-25's No. 84 Squadron (as i confirmed to you before) so no need to talk about the rest of the claims.

Oh my... and since when is squadron designation related to 'precision' of Peleng-D...?!?

I mean... do you insist on presenting yourself as a brainwashed dumbass?

Iraqi Air force never ever used chemical weapons against own people or Iranian civilians...

Nah, of course not. Iranian civilians got infected by CWs while making guided tours of Baghdad downtown...

What I find particularly silly: you simply can't think of all of this in any sane or reasonable fashion. You're so full of hatred for Iranians, and so insistent on your primitive propaganda, you don't even understand that I can't care less - about them or you. All I want are FACTS about air warfare: I don't care the least from where or about whom they are. So, either you provide facts (instead of your usual bullshit) or give us all a break and go spreading your Ba'ath stench somewhere else, PLEASE.

[tomcooper]

The chemical attack marks in the map do not refer to the perpetrator wether Iraq or Iran

Of course it's none of that: there are extremely precise maps of (Iraqi) attacks with chemical weapons, don't worry.

I just found it ridiculous this clown is so insistent on that laughable Ba'ath version about 'Iranian bombardment of Iraqi cities and villages' on 15 June 1980. That's such stinking nonsense, it's ridiculous to waste even 1 second of our time with it any more.

I always asked my self when reading media reports about this vague MiG-25 squadron 84 !?!!

Source was Sadik, he cited that unit as such already when publishing about Speicher case, in Iraqi papers, back in mid-1990s. No clue why.

Of course, he cited the unit that way when we were working together, back in mid-2000, too. So I memorized it that way. Guess, the others are simply copy-pasting from our publications without checking (probably in same fashion this clown began copy-pasting my articles on Tu-22s and presenting them as 'published by Iraqi air force'... ).

Frankly (as always): I'm using that designation since more than 10 years meanwhile. Memorized it, and can't memorize the 'correct' one for some reason - although I've got so many other details about Iraqi MiG-25s, meanwhile. I'll certainly not use it in any publication any more...and if I do so here: who cares, actually...?

There is no direct link between IrAF claim on shoting down a Tomcat in 1980 and between IrAF deep strikes on iranian infrastructure in late stage of war.

Psst. Don't tell him such things: he might suffer a heart stroke if realizing that his own lies are contradicting his boasting.

[oldiaf]

So these 2 F-4 Phantoms and 2 F-5s that was shut downed ... before Sep 22 1980 ?

[tomcooper]

So these 2 F-4 Phantoms and 2 F-5s that was shut downed ... before Sep 22 1980 ?

Yes.

Just like the IrAF lost at least as many Su-22s, Su-22Ms, MiG-21s.... and the IrAAC lost several Mi-8s and Mi-25s before 22 September 1980.

[old.iraqi.air.force]

What kind of sick of lying and hypocrisy you are in?!!
What a miserable impertinent person you are!!
Did you think i will let your bad words against me behind me and just let you say whatever you want?
You keep posting your bullshit lies here thinking with yourself your able to marketing the evil thoughts of Mullahs Tehran,
Well let me start with you a new page and show you a new face as we showed to your Masters in Tehran before 35 years ago.
Hey miserable liar! what F-4 flown by Iranian Hossein Lashgari you bull-shitting around here? and even ejection-history.org.uk confirmed it was F-5, you love to be idiot and this came fit to you, because you're officially idiot and liar.
Source:
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/The%20Iran%20-%20Iraq%20War%20Iranian%20POWS/iran__iraq_war_iranian_pows.htm
Another page:
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/country-by-country/iranian_f_5_losses_any_ejections.htm

Maj. Gen.Alwan Alabbosi article about Iranian F-5 pilot Hossein Lashgari who shot down on 17-Dec-1980.
http://www.albasrah.net/ar_articles_2012/1012/3bosi_121012.htm

Do you need more sources such shoes in your stinky moth to stop lying and distortion of facts?

As you like, I'll do so, don't worry.

Yeah go ahead and fabricate story with a fake image like you did a hundred times before (let's laugh at donkey like you).

If you 'gauge' by such PRBS, it was IrAF that 'started' - by bombing Iran, already in April 1980. Or did you forget the 'holy mission' of Su-20s from No. 1 Squadron...?

Why don't you eat little sh**t and stop lying here, (mission' of Su-20s from No.1 Squadron, MIG-25R No.84 Squadron) craps followed by another, where do you bring this craps from? of your back and put it in your moth!

Yeah, for a true Ba'thist, the target in question was 'only' some nifty Kurdish village where Barzani brothers were hiding - but that village was still inside Iranian borders, on Iranian soil, within sovereign Iranian territory. I.e.: that was an attack on Iran.
Target was actually completely civilian: not only that Barzanis were nowhere around, but no Iranian military either: Iranian military was de-mobilized at that time. Nearest Army units were at less than 20% of their nominal strenght, most of the IRIAF didn't fly since late 1978...
But no: your Ba'ath PRBS is that they were 'preparing invasion of Iran'...

Bla bla bla.. Another load of sh**t come out of your stinky mouth, what is your evidence of this craps what is your proof!

What 'irrefutable evidence'?

Don't rush i will translated and post the original documents here to be such such slap cake on your face.

Typical primitive Iraqi propaganda. I can't believe any sane person is ready to belive this...

And the links above isn't enough to prove you're the lonely dumb primitive here?

If you love to insist on such nonsense, then at least keep in mind: Lashgari flew already the fourth IRIAF jet shot down by Iraqis in September 1980. The first was F-4E flown by Shams-Beigi/Ramezani, second F-4E flown by Eskandari/Ilkhani, and third was Lashgari's wingman...
But because Lashgari was the first to get captured by Iraqi ground troops (who have captured him inside Iran, BTW) clowns like you consider him 'evidence of Iranian aggression'.

Keep insist on your crap here links above shows your lies.

Please explain me now: how can you be as stupid as this? It is so endlessly dumb to consider Lashagri for something like 'evidence of Iranian aggression' - there are no words to describe this properly (or if, then one can only conclude that calling characters believing this 'dumb' would be an offense for any sincere stupids).Your lovely Saddam ordered invasion of Iran precisely because he knew the Iranian miltary is not in condition to fight: because he expected a swift victory, perhaps a downfall of Mullah regime in Tehran too. And if Iranian miltiary was not in condition to fight, then how comes clowns like you are still insisting on claims like some sort of 'Iranian bombardment of Iraqi cities'...?

Now explain to me what a damn liar you are and what kind of sickness inside you, and what kind of person has zero respect to himself and keep lying like this to humiliates himself again and again.
Do even know what does it mean shame? have you ever feel it? have you ever sit a second with yourself and ask this question: why people don't trust what you published? why people start forum thread talk about your reliability? why you hide yourself such a rat from many internet forums!
Why did you escaped from tank-net.com forum? because your lies showed up and you couldn't answer any question.
Why did you escaped from iraqimilitary.org forum? because hayder and raaft and Hawkeye shows your lies up and you couldn't answer any question.
Why did you escaped from Aviaton forum? because your lies showed up and you couldn't answer any question.
And many others JUST MANY OTHERS.what a silly and trifle person!

Oh my... and since when is squadron designation related to 'precision' of Peleng-D...?!?
I mean... do you insist on presenting yourself as a brainwashed dumbass?

Another load of sh**t came out of your stinky moth..
Bla Bla Bla MiG-25 squadron 84..etc
Bla Bla Bla he visit Baghdad and seen Iraqi MIg-25 wreckage..etc
He have CV's he as map he know every thing..etc
Why don't you eat sh**t again and shot your stinky moth sucker! you're just damn liar, all what you wrote and published based on internet forums and dumbass Mullahs information which is left or right both of you dirty miserable liars..

What I find particularly silly: you simply can't think of all of this in any sane or reasonable fashion. You're so full of hatred for Iranians, and so insistent on your primitive propaganda, you don't even understand that I can't care less - about them or you. All I want are FACTS about air warfare: I don't care the least from where or about whom they are. So, either you provide facts (instead of your usual bullshit) or give us all a break and go spreading your Ba'ath stench somewhere else, PLEASE.

Lie on yourself in this part just idiot like you may believe this, you were begging information in any case and i knew it how to drag you the way i want, because you're foolish so it wasn't even hard with my poor English.

Source was Sadik, he cited that unit as such already when publishing about Speicher case, in Iraqi papers, back in mid-1990s. No clue why.
Of course, he cited the unit that way when we were working together, back in mid-2000, too. So I memorized it that way. Guess, the others are simply copy-pasting from our publications without checking (probably in same fashion this clown began copy-pasting my articles on Tu-22s and presenting them as 'published by Iraqi air force'...

Lies followed by lies followed by lies ..... what is your problem!!!!??? just tell me what kind of sickness is this!!!
Wake up of this illusion...wake up of this dreams world..
Who is the God damn Brigadier General Ahmad Sadik!! you lie and believe your lies!
No one know Brigadier General Ahmad Sadik in Iraqi AF, all Iraqi air force generals denial his existence (fake person, fictional character, unreal character) and you keep lie General Ahmad Sadik co-author books with you!!
You co-author lies you co-author crap you co-author with fictional character not exist in real life except in your lies series.

Yes.

Just like the IrAF lost at least as many Su-22s, Su-22Ms, MiG-21s.... and the IrAAC lost several Mi-8s and Mi-25s before 22 September 1980.

What is your evidence of this crap!? just like many many others.?

[tomcooper]

What kind of sick of lying and hypocrisy you are in?!!
What a miserable impertinent person you are!!
Did you think i will let your bad words against me behind me and just let you say whatever you want?
You keep posting your bullshit lies here thinking with yourself your able to marketing the evil thoughts of Mullahs Tehran,
Well let me start with you a new page and show you a new face as we showed to your Masters in Tehran before 35 years ago.
Hey miserable liar! what F-4 flown by Iranian Hossein Lashgari...

You're too dumb to read (indeed, even to read sources for links you've posted. )

Like I concluded before: you're indeed the best argument pro anti-baby pills I've ever seen.

[old.iraqi.air.force]

What kind of sick of lying and hypocrisy you are in?!!
What a miserable impertinent person you are!!
Did you think i will let your bad words against me behind me and just let you say whatever you want?
You keep posting your bullshit lies here thinking with yourself your able to marketing the evil thoughts of Mullahs Tehran,
Well let me start with you a new page and show you a new face as we showed to your Masters in Tehran before 35 years ago.
Hey miserable liar! what F-4 flown by Iranian Hossein Lashgari...

You're too dumb to read (indeed, even to read sources for links you've posted. )

Like I concluded before: you're indeed the best argument pro anti-baby pills I've ever seen.

You need a new eye-glasses

[oldiaf]

BTW ... Why the prisoner exchange between the 2 countries lasted all this period ??! I heard some of the prisoners were released in 2002 ?!!

[tomcooper]

You need a new eye-glasses

Did you actually re-read what I've posted about Lashgari...?

Are you grasping for straws - or just insisting on presenting yourself as an even bigger stupid than anybody can imagine?

Nah.. wait... I am going to admit a mistake now: I was wrong calling you a 'clown'.

A clown is somebody paid to play dumb. A professional.

You're genuinely a primitive, ignorant and jalous dumbass.

You're full of hatred for Iranians, and despise me because I've published 3 books and few articles covering (between others), Iranian air force. You didn't read a single of books in question, but in your illusion of grandeur, you 'know' about their content. And you 'know' this so well, that you failed to pay attention at the fact that I've researched and published three times as many books, and about ten-fold more articles about Arab air forces....

Look how silly you are:

- You boast with your contact to Maj-Gen Alwan al-Abossi (IrAF, ret.). Ironically: because you have never read any of my books or articles, you have no clue that I'm in contact with him since years - via Group 73 Historians (<= click it, dummy, it's a link to a webiste of a group of enthusiast Egyptian historians, researching about Egyptian military at wars with Israel, not an IED!).

That said, I'm not only in contact with Abossi, but with a number of other ex-IrAF officers. In other cases, I 'at least' interviewed many of them. Attached below is page 9 from the book 'Arab MiGs Volume 6', which is about to be published in one month from now. It is containing the first part of 'Acknowledgments' - expression of authors' gratitudes for help we (I'm not the only author of these books) have received while researching for that project. It's listing some of them (together with dozens of other Arab officers of various ranks) - including Abossi.

...and you have absolutely no clue about all of this.

- Because you're so endlessly dumb and ignorant, you say I lie and there was never any Brig-Gen Ahmad Sadik in the IrAF.

Ironic is that it would be easy for you to check if there was any or not. All you need to do is to register on ACIG.info forum - and find hundreds of his posts there (indeed, even some of his discussions with few retired IRIAF pilots that used to post there).

If you would have at least a trace of decency, you could ask me for the IP from which he was posting, so to find out where was he at the time he used to post there. But, of course, a genuinely dumb and jalous liar like you would never come to the idea to do so (and, hand at heart: meanwhile you would need plenty of apologising to bring me as far as to provide such information to such a nifty character like you).

- You dare discussing my reliability, and are 'providing evidence' in form of citations of specific forums from which I should have 'run away'. Actually, you have no trace of clue what happened in what case or where, and thus must construct additional lies.

For example, you babble about tanknet: I used to post there back in 1991-2001 period, when they were babbling all sorts of bullshit about Iraq and Iraqis, and propagating an invasion that then followed in 2003 - as was very popular in the West at that time. I've had my account suspended for about a week, for 'infraction', precisely because I told one of admins that he's babbling bullshit about Iraqis (just like now I'm telling you that you're bullshitting about me and my research). They have lifted that suspension one week later, and they have called me - several times - to come back and post there again, but I never cared to go there again. Why should I, if they - exactly like you - know everything so much better?

Then you babble about iraqimilitary.org forum, and lie that Hayder and whoever else have 'shown my lies' and I couldn't answer any of their questions.

Here's the link to the last thread where I attempted to talk with them:
http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtop ... 7&start=30

Come on, stupid: click that link and point me at the place where I have avoided answering any of their questions?

And why do you lie about me 'running away'? As can be easily seen, Hawkeye was actually asking me to stay...

BTW, I doubt a dumbass like you could even imagine: one of gentlemen you have mentioned is meanwile (secretly?) contacting me, and turned into one of my most-important sources about ex-IrAF. Indeed, he's mentioned in the PDF file attached below too.

Since I doubt this is making understandable for you how endlessly dumb you are, let me continue...

- I should have 'escaped from 'Aviation Forum'... I never heard of any such forum, so I guess you mean the Key Publishing forum, i.e. the former forum of the 'Air Forces Monthly' magazine.

This is another nice illustration of how clueless you are. I used to be active there in 2000-2001, shortly after that forum was established. There was a bunch of true calibres there, including ex-F-15s, ex-B-52s, ex-MiG-21 people (an Indian MiG-21-pilot with a confirmed kill from 1971 War with Pakistan, for example), even some ex-intel people (like Sean O'Connor, who used to run the blog http://geimint.blogspot.co.at/2008/12/r ... fense.html - before starting to work for Jane's; that's at least the last I've heard from him)... then the best-ever Dutch plane spotter that crossed my way (he's meanwhile working for the Dutch MOD) etc.

But, there was no admin: nobody from Key Publishing was there to take care of the order on that forum.

It was around the same time that the contemporary editor of AirForces Monthly magazine began lifting my articles: he would publish these either unsigned, or under name of some other author. I didn't mind him doing so with smaller articles, but when he did so with a big feature on Algerian Air Force at war with the GIS... (see attachment below for the first page of that feature)...well, that was too much. I complained, just like several other authors did, who had similar experience with him.

When the author whose name that editor misused complained too (it's going to mean absolutely nothing to such a stupid like you, but the gentlemen in question is certain Dr Michael Knights, working for WINEP in the DC), editor cancelled his cooperation with all of us - not only with me - instead of offering an apology.

Ironically, around the same time, another editor of a certain magazine published by Key Publishing DID apologise for lifting one of my articles - just like editors of this very website did too (yes, somebody from f-16.net has lifted one of my articles too, back then; it was removed as soon as I complained, though).

Whether by accident or design, a bunch of Pakistani idiots then appeared on that forum, started calling us (not only me) names and liars. Result: everybody who had something serious to post there, stopped doing so. Nobody 'run away', especially not because we couldn't answer some questions. This is easy to check: that forum has archive, and you can find my posts under 'Tom' there.

Instead of posting there, some of us then intensified the work on ACIG.info (former ACIG.org), others founded Secret Projects forum, or did something else.

All of this happened at the time you were still enjoying the advantages and luxuries of lovely rule by Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti...

Whatever, bottom line is: I don't really like saying it, and you're not going to like 'hearing' it again, but you're really a genuinely primitive, ignorant and jalous dumbass. You have absolutely no clue about me or my work, but are stupid enough to think you can discuss it. You're so dumb, you're presenting yourself as a former Mirage pilot - but can't recognize HUD-simbology of your own aircraft...? You're such a fool, while hating me from the bottom of your heart, you are misusing MY artwork of the Mirage F.1EQ '4014' as your avatar (which you've probably lifted here; you are plagiarising my article on Tu-22s (originally published in AirEnthusiast magazine, back in 2002) - i.e. doing exactly what certain dubious characters did so often to me over the time... and on the top of all of this, you failed to answer even 1 (in letters: ONE) question of mine so far - but consider yourself as some kind of 'authority' that can use your single brain cell to gauge me as 'pro-Iranian regime'....?

And still: after writing all of this, somehow I actually pity you. You're such a joke, it's actually sad.