F-104 Turbofan Performance

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
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sferrin

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Unread post15 Jan 2019, 16:25

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:While we are dreaming, Phantom inlets could probably handle F414 EPEs. Still doubt it would out do a J79-19 above Mach 2, but in Sub and Trans-sonic it would be a beast.

The noise of those J79s though...


Wouldn't have touched this baby:

f-4x03.jpg


https://tacairnet.com/2015/06/18/redeve ... spy-plane/

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/ ... 394.0.html
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sferrin

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Unread post15 Jan 2019, 16:29

mixelflick wrote:Wow!

Thanks for posting these guys. I'm surprised the up rated Super Phantom never garnered many buyers, considering how prevalent they were around the world. Yes, read where that up-engined F-8 was an absolute beast and would have trounced any Phantom of the day. As far as the F-20 goes, that's a real head scratcher. Perhaps had it come along during the 1970's energy crisis it would have fared better.

Incredibly capable, zippy little jet. For the time period, it struck me as the ideal aircraft for many air arms - including Taiwan You had Chuck Yaeger's blessing, and those promotional videos put out by Northrop were slick IMO. But as long as the F-16 had the USAF's stamp, it was going to be an uphill battle.

As for the F-104, the J79 was the perfect fit. On the one hand, it was supremely capable in the speed/altitude dept. But that razor thin wing that made it possible was also its downfall in a turning fight. I still consider it one of Kelly Johnson's greatest creations though. We have a Starfighter here at the New England Air Museum that zoomed to 90 something thousand feet and something like mach 2.4. I know some rumors had it hitting mach 3 and getting to over 100,000 ft!

For any time, that was damn impressive..


Don't forget the X-27 with a TF-30:

x-27-cl-1200.jpg


x-27-side.jpg


x27-2.jpg
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f-16adf

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Unread post15 Jan 2019, 16:51

I liked the F-20, but it was more comparable to the F-16/79. There are some performance diagrams (flight modeled, i'm guessing?) that pretty much buttress that statement. Even the Navy published a doc (try to see if I still have it) that came to the conclusion that for the aggressor role the F-20 would never touch the F-16N. (And no jet could: even if the Hornet tried that fancy high AOA stuff, the N Viper would just climb above it in seconds and gun him).



There is an IDF Super Phantom demo on YT, and yes that thing could move!

But to me, a Phantom without a J79 isn't really a Phantom.

Some NDANG Phantoms with the early J79 howl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rovrqWyYmk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6pKVlLCnSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC4elTPvsgY
and at 4:40 Six Pack Phantoms howl and their final scramble (I was there!!!! :D ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7wbUuZSX4w
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post15 Jan 2019, 19:11

sferrin wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:While we are dreaming, Phantom inlets could probably handle F414 EPEs. Still doubt it would out do a J79-19 above Mach 2, but in Sub and Trans-sonic it would be a beast.

The noise of those J79s though...


Wouldn't have touched this baby:

f-4x03.jpg


https://tacairnet.com/2015/06/18/redeve ... spy-plane/

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/ ... 394.0.html

That's right! The one with water cooled inlets so the J79 could REALLY cut loose!
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hornetfinn

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Unread post16 Jan 2019, 12:05

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:While we are dreaming, Phantom inlets could probably handle F414 EPEs. Still doubt it would out do a J79-19 above Mach 2, but in Sub and Trans-sonic it would be a beast.

The noise of those J79s though...


How about installing RD-33MK engine to MiG-21 and have duel with these old timers on steroids... :D
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Unread post16 Jan 2019, 14:57

.[/quote]

Don't forget the X-27 with a TF-30:

x-27-cl-1200.jpg


x-27-side.jpg


x27-2.jpg
[/quote]

This thing get beyond the mock up stage? I've never seen it before.

Interesting!
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Unread post16 Jan 2019, 15:00

Any link to the IDF Super Phantom demo?

I search on youtube for that exact phrase, came up with nothing. Would love to see it. Phantom was my first love... :)
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Unread post16 Jan 2019, 21:34

Mixelflick,

I think the YT account/link for it is gone/closed. But here is another video, granted this one is edited. So it really doesn't do it justice. Impressive take off though, for an F-4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEdRszk1PiY

Super Phantom is at 32:50



Do you remember back in the day when the MAANG flew the F-106/F-15 out of Cape Cod? Those were some beautiful jets!
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Unread post17 Jan 2019, 14:21

Thanks for the link.

Yes, I DO remember F-106's specifically from Otis, because they were static stars at our local airshow in Westfield, MA. The 104th fighter wing flew A-10's for a LONG time, but the F-106's were frequent visitors. When the A-10's left, Otis's F-15's came to Westfield, where they remain today. I love hearing them, and I'm 2 town over!!!

OK so here's what I remember of the F-106. Show ends, F-106 taxis out to fly home. Two wing tanks she carried, always. Lights the burner and here she comes down the runway. I'm sure this was heat coming off the runway distorting it, but the wings looked like they were bending (down) so severely, I thought they'd break off!

Then up, up and away! I dismissed the F-106 as inferior given they also had F-14's, F-15's and F-16's on the ramp. The F-111 was also a frequent visitor. But had I known the F-106 was the fastest single engine aircraft out there (at least in level flight), I would have paid more attention. It just looked archaic parked next to the F-16.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. With legacy birds mixed in with the century series, A-10's etc - it was a magical time. I almost feel sorry for future airshow visitors as the sheer number of unique airframes keeps dwindling every year. The F-18 has done the most damage in that regard, and the F-35 will continue that trend.

At least it comes in 3 different flavors! :)
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sferrin

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Unread post17 Jan 2019, 14:57

mixelflick wrote:Thanks for the link.

Yes, I DO remember F-106's specifically from Otis, because they were static stars at our local airshow in Westfield, MA. The 104th fighter wing flew A-10's for a LONG time, but the F-106's were frequent visitors. When the A-10's left, Otis's F-15's came to Westfield, where they remain today. I love hearing them, and I'm 2 town over!!!

OK so here's what I remember of the F-106. Show ends, F-106 taxis out to fly home. Two wing tanks she carried, always. Lights the burner and here she comes down the runway. I'm sure this was heat coming off the runway distorting it, but the wings looked like they were bending (down) so severely, I thought they'd break off!

Then up, up and away! I dismissed the F-106 as inferior given they also had F-14's, F-15's and F-16's on the ramp. The F-111 was also a frequent visitor. But had I known the F-106 was the fastest single engine aircraft out there (at least in level flight), I would have paid more attention. It just looked archaic parked next to the F-16.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. With legacy birds mixed in with the century series, A-10's etc - it was a magical time. I almost feel sorry for future airshow visitors as the sheer number of unique airframes keeps dwindling every year. The F-18 has done the most damage in that regard, and the F-35 will continue that trend.

At least it comes in 3 different flavors! :)


I grew up near Hill AFB in the 70s/80s. Saw lots of jets. (Even saw an F-89 Scorpion fly over once.) But never saw an F-106. :(
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Unread post17 Jan 2019, 15:21

I just hope that one day the F-104 demo team will reunite. And maybe the Collings Foundation will get their F-4D back in the air (fix that one engine tho-).
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Unread post17 Jan 2019, 16:06

f-16adf wrote:I just hope that one day the F-104 demo team will reunite. And maybe the Collings Foundation will get their F-4D back in the air (fix that one engine tho-).


A shame they couldn't have kept a B-58 and F-105 flying.
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Unread post18 Jan 2019, 06:09

35,000 ft and M.9;

If you stuck the F404 in a 104 air frame and drag raced it against a J79-19 104, at what speed would the J79 start to pull away?

At what speed and altitude does the turbojet out perform the turbofan?
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Unread post18 Jan 2019, 13:52

Gut feel? I'd say 1.4 M
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Unread post18 Jan 2019, 16:11

f-16adf wrote:I just hope that one day the F-104 demo team will reunite. And maybe the Collings Foundation will get their F-4D back in the air (fix that one engine tho-).


Not sure if it was the same team, but I saw two privately owned white/blue painted 104's perform at The Great New England Airshow a few years ago. I'll be honest - I was underwhelmed. We're so spoiled with 9g turns, and now the high AOA stuff with the SH, F-22 and 35... display seemed tame by comparison. The one maneuver I was waiting for was a screaming high spped pass up into the vertical... but it never materialized. I wasn't aware there was an F-4D flying either. Now THAT is something I'd love to see again..

And I wholeheartedly second the idea of getting an F-105 and especially B-58 in the air! We have a beautifully restored F-105 here at the New England Air Museum. You never really get a chance to understand how HUGE it is, until you get up close! Not just long, but TALL! Holy smokes, they had to be a handle just getting around the ramp.

And the B-58.. how I'd love to see just one. Was before my time, but that was one gorgeous bird. And the engineering that went into it... incredible. Also, haven't seen a centerline fuel/weapons pod like that before or since. How on earth did the separate a bomb (or bombs?) from what appeared to be one massive fuel tank??
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