Iranian F-14's and the Fakour Missile

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 26 Dec 2018, 14:35

Just ordered Tom Cooper's Iranian F-14 units in combat, really looking forward to reading it.

According to this article, the Iranians have cloned/improved the AIM-154A Phoenix missiles we initially sold them - https://defence-blog.com/news/irans-cop ... ction.html. My question is, how credible is this missile? Meaning, should it be considered a real threat??

If the reports are true (and frankly, I find them dubious), it may well have a range that out-sticks USN AIM-120D's used on our Super Hornets. I've just seen too many Iranian "breakthroughs" like their "stealth" fighter/CAS aircraft and "revolutionary" F-5's - with twin tails though, to take it seriously. OTOH, I don't want to under-estimate an enemy weapons system.

I have no doubt the AMRAAM's from F-22's (and perhaps F-35's) have a much higher PK, but curious as to all your opinions...

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 26 Dec 2018, 21:04

There is a large chasm between "out-sticks" and "outperform".

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 27 Dec 2018, 14:37

I doubt it does either.

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 27 Dec 2018, 17:14

SpudmanWP wrote:There is a large chasm between "out-sticks" and "outperform".

They are claiming a 30% reduction in weight, so a corresponding increase in range. I don't believe the 100 plus mile range figures, but I might buy 50-65 miles. More importantly, the Phoenix was a mach 5 missile, whereas the AMRAAM is a mach 4. I tend to believe Iranian reports of it downing all sorts of fighter sized/maneuvering targets during the Iran/Iraq war, although how many enemy aircraft had radar warning receivers/jammers is unclear.

If it's true, F-15/16/18 pilots would be wise not to under-estimate it. I'm sure the Iranians will be looking for the first look, first shot and first kill like we are. With the radar in the F-14 and these missiles, they may just be able to pull it off. I have no doubt our boys have much better training and will win the day, but it's been awhile since we've been up against a missile with the speed and range of this thing. The only exception is the Russian AA-9 Amos, which reportedly has a mach 5 speed as well along with comparable range. Being exclusive to the Mig-31 though and never exported, it won't likely be encountered.

strykerxo · by **strykerxo** » 28 Dec 2018, 00:47

it's all in the name "F**ker" missile. lol

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 28 Dec 2018, 04:35

mixelflick wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:There is a large chasm between "out-sticks" and "outperform".

They are claiming a 30% reduction in weight, so a corresponding increase in range. I don't believe the 100 plus mile range figures, but I might buy 50-65 miles. More importantly, the Phoenix was a mach 5 missile, whereas the AMRAAM is a mach 4. I tend to believe Iranian reports of it downing all sorts of fighter sized/maneuvering targets during the Iran/Iraq war, although how many enemy aircraft had radar warning receivers/jammers is unclear.

If it's true, F-15/16/18 pilots would be wise not to under-estimate it. I'm sure the Iranians will be looking for the first look, first shot and first kill like we are. With the radar in the F-14 and these missiles, they may just be able to pull it off. I have no doubt our boys have much better training and will win the day, but it's been awhile since we've been up against a missile with the speed and range of this thing. The only exception is the Russian AA-9 Amos, which reportedly has a mach 5 speed as well along with comparable range. Being exclusive to the Mig-31 though and never exported, it won't likely be encountered.

The F-14 may have a first look advantage vs a non-AESA equipped F-16 (with no AWACS support), but it won't have a first look advantage vs an F-15, F-18E/F, F-22, or F-35. It also won't have a first shoot advantage, for the same reason. These missiles are based upon Hawks, which are not 180km+ missiles.

awsome · by **awsome** » 28 Dec 2018, 20:38

The F-14 may have a first look advantage vs a non-AESA equipped F-16 (with no AWACS support), but it won't have a first look advantage vs an F-15, F-18E/F, F-22, or F-35. It also won't have a first shoot advantage, for the same reason. These missiles are based upon Hawks, which are not 180km+ missiles.[/quote]

It all depends on how integrated the Iranian air defense system is. If the pre teens with the cell phones are in direct communication with the militias that burn the tires the Great Satan had better watch out!

PS belated Merry Christmas...

edpop · by **edpop** » 31 Dec 2018, 22:16

https://airforcesmonthly.keypublishing. ... r-on-show/

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 08 Jan 2019, 19:28

Just got done reading Tom Cooper's excellent Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat.

Claims of a weapons system's effectiveness in combat I usually take with a grain of salt, but the documentation/backup in this case was impressive. What is clear is that the F-14 was an incredible killing machine. Even with older model Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles, it excelled in both BVR and WVR combat against a number of types of aircraft. Most interesting was the Iranian opinion of the F-14 vs. Mig-29. Something to the effect that the F-14 cleaned its clock regularly, thus explaining why Iran only bought a limited number of Mig-29's.

It was the Phoenix kills thought, that I found most riveting. Everything from close in engagements to BVR shots 60 miles away, the Phoenix sounds deadly. The Mig-25 kills I read with particular interest. And the stories about a single Phoenix killing 3 or 4 enemy aircraft was likewise impressive. Didn't seem to matter if it was an SU-22, Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-25 OR Mirage F1 - they all fell victim. It speaks volumes that even today, the F-14 is their top of the line fighter guarding their nuclear facilities. Yes, I know there are sanctions preventing Iran from buying newer fighters. But 40 years later the Tomcat still sounds impressive.

I won't give it all away, but if you're a fan of the F-14 - this is a must read. Highly recommended for your bookshelf.

nikolaos · by **nikolaos** » 10 Jan 2019, 12:14

That book is now very old and its content obsolete, it was published 10-15 years ago, a lot of things have changed since then as regards the information for the use of F-14 Tomcat by the Iranians, for example , the list of confirmed kills in the appendice is now considered by the author himself as simply claims, or the number of the Mig-25 shotdowns which are actually very very low etc, etc

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 10 Jan 2019, 16:47

nikolaos wrote:That book is now very old and its content obsolete, it was published 10-15 years ago, a lot of things have changed since then as regards the information for the use of F-14 Tomcat by the Iranians, for example , the list of confirmed kills in the appendice is now considered by the author himself as simply claims, or the number of the Mig-25 shotdowns which are actually very very low etc, etc

I understand.

Can you suggest a more comprehensive book detailing Iranian Tomcats in action, particularly against Mig-25's? One youtube snippet I found fascinating as this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zGWXjk1__w

Starts with Mig-23's but at precisely the 3:00 mark, the Tomcats E/O/TV sensor zero in on a pair of fully armed Iraqi Foxbats. From the audio, they seem to be about 30 miles away! Given the way they're maneuvering, they appear to be aware of the Tomcat's presence. Still, it gives the impression that these Foxbats would be in for a long day had the situation turned hot.

nikolaos · by **nikolaos** » 11 Jan 2019, 09:13

Unfortunately as regards books there is none that I am aware of,

Here are the links in youtube for the two comfirmed Mig-25 shot downs during the war, they have english subtitles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ua4MgV3roA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN3vMAvkJOg
(it is the same video actually)
and also this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJ1cdMHzKM

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 11 Jan 2019, 14:25

nikolaos wrote:Unfortunately as regards books there is none that I am aware of,

Here are the links in youtube for the two comfirmed Mig-25 shot downs during the war, they have english subtitles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ua4MgV3roA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN3vMAvkJOg
(it is the same video actually)
and also this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJ1cdMHzKM

I had seen the last one you posted, but not the first.

Thank you...

nikolaos · by **nikolaos** » 15 Jan 2019, 07:24

The following is not related to Tomcats and Foxbats but it is interesting, so here is another youtube link which is the actual recording of an Iraqi Mirage F-1 interception and shotdown (?) by an Iranian Phantom sometime during the Iran-Iraq war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGtpT-2bW0c&t=0s

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 15 Jan 2019, 15:56

nikolaos wrote:The following is not related to Tomcats and Foxbats but it is interesting, so here is another youtube link which is the actual recording of an Iraqi Mirage F-1 interception and shotdown (?) by an Iranian Phantom sometime during the Iran-Iraq war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGtpT-2bW0c&t=0s

Interesting engagement.

Wasn't aware Iranian Phantoms were that dependent on ground control. Surprised he had difficulty finding his target though at a range of 2-3 miles? And the callout from ground control that they were all bombers wasn't exactly accurate. They were Mirage F1's, at least one of them. And while likely configured for ground attack, they had presumably dropped their bombs and at a minimum, retained guns. The F1 sounds like he never knew what hit him. Otherwise, I imagine he would have put up more of a fight!

Thank you