The downing of Speicher F/A-18: Iraqi perspective Jan 1991

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
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old.iraqi.air.force

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Unread post03 Oct 2015, 01:13

hornetfinn wrote:I really wonder what was the tactical thinking behind sending only token aircraft against Coalition forces even during the first couple of days before being effectively decimated?

1.Because 96 Squadron deployed only 8 MIG-25PD at Al-Qadisiyah AB and the rest deployed around another bases, therefore it was not wise to launch massive number of interceptors without being covered at lest by the GCI, and as you know the MIG-25PD entirely depends on (RSPN, HOMER, Approach radar, BEKANT i wrote the last one as i pronounce it) to make it's way back, and with out anyone of these the MIG-25PD completely blind and this truly what happened to Capt.Zuhair Dawood, he didn't had any malfunction in the navigation system but because the air base was under attack they shut down the whole radars and RSPN..etc to avoid being targeted by coalition aircraft. So he couldn't make his way back easy and for that you could imagine if they launch two MIG-25PD (with this case) definitely at least one of them will be lost. The MIG-25PDS and MIG-29, Mirage had better navigation system and that's why 97 Squadron at Habbaniyah AB launch two MIG-25PDS at that night.
hornetfinn wrote:Were Iraqis incapable of sending more fighter aircraft into air or were they trying to preserve their precious fighter force?

2.For the same reason above, most the radars and communication unit has been destroyed from the first night of the war, even if we were able to insure the return to air base we can't insure the communication with ground control to locate the targets and follow the rest of orders, so any interception duty will be completely pointless.
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Unread post03 Oct 2015, 01:18

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I really wonder what was the tactical thinking behind sending only token aircraft against Coalition forces even during the first couple of days before being effectively decimated?

1.Because 96 Squadron deployed only 8 MIG-25PD at Al-Qadisiyah AB and the rest deployed around another bases, therefore it was not wise to launch massive number of interceptors without being covered at lest by the GCI, and as you know the MIG-25PD entirely depends on (RSPN, HOMER, Approach radar, BEKANT i wrote the last one as i pronounce it) to make it's way back, and with out anyone of these the MIG-25PD completely blind and this truly what happened to Capt.Zuhair Dawood, he didn't had any malfunction in the navigation system but because the air base was under attack they shut down the whole radars and RSPN..etc to avoid being targeted by coalition aircraft. So he couldn't make his way back easy and for that you could imagine if they launch two MIG-25PD (with this case) definitely at least one of them will be lost. The MIG-25PDS and MIG-29, Mirage had better navigation system and that's why 97 Squadron at Habbaniyah AB launch two MIG-25PDS at that night.
hornetfinn wrote:Were Iraqis incapable of sending more fighter aircraft into air or were they trying to preserve their precious fighter force?

2.For the same reason above, most the radars and communication unit has been destroyed from the first night of the war, even if we were able to insure the return to air base we can't insure the communication with ground control to locate the targets and follow the rest of orders, so any interception duty will be completely pointless.

How many MiG-25PD and PDS squadron 96 and 97 had in total ? 19 in total as I recall ? .... I don't understand : was the PD version supposed to be more advanced than the PDS version ?
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Unread post03 Oct 2015, 17:59

oldiaf wrote:How many MiG-25PD and PDS squadron 96 and 97 had in total ? 19 in total as I recall ? .... I don't understand : was the PD version supposed to be more advanced than the PDS version ?

Yup, 19.

And yes:
- MiG-25PD: advanced variant with R-15 engines (much better than erlier examples), N-005 Saphir-25 radar (limited look-down/shoot-down capability), IRST and R-60-compatibility, originally built for the V-VS to replace MiG-25Ps (because these were compromised by Viktor Belenko's defection)
- MiG-25PDS: overhauled MiG-25Ps, brought to MiG-25PD-similar standard, but retaining Smerch 2A radar, built for export.

Means: it would be very interesting to learn what kind of 'more advanced navigational system' was installed into the PDS... :roll:
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Unread post03 Oct 2015, 18:12

tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:How many MiG-25PD and PDS squadron 96 and 97 had in total ? 19 in total as I recall ? .... I don't understand : was the PD version supposed to be more advanced than the PDS version ?

Yup, 19.

And yes:
- MiG-25PD: advanced variant with R-15 engines (much better than erlier examples), N-005 Saphir-25 radar (limited look-down/shoot-down capability), IRST and R-60-compatibility, originally built for the V-VS to replace MiG-25Ps (because these were compromised by Viktor Belenko's defection)
- MiG-25PDS: overhauled MiG-25Ps, brought to MiG-25PD-similar standard, but retaining Smerch 2A radar, built for export.

Means: it would be very interesting to learn what kind of 'more advanced navigational system' was installed into the PDS... :roll:

How many in each squadrons ?
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Unread post03 Oct 2015, 21:12

That's unclear. But, obviously, there couldn't have been more than 9-10 per squadron.
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Unread post04 Oct 2015, 22:45

tomcooper wrote:That's unclear. But, obviously, there couldn't have been more than 9-10 per squadron.

Ok ... How many were PD ? and how many were PDS ? and all PD were in Squadron 96 and PDS in 97 ?
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Unread post05 Oct 2015, 06:09

Did the Soviets modernised all PDs to PDSs after strong Iraqi demands ?
Incidentally, were they any MiG-25 RBs left in 1991?
If yes what was their participation in DS?
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Unread post05 Oct 2015, 07:42

nikolaos wrote:Did the Soviets modernised all PDs to PDSs after strong Iraqi demands ?
Incidentally, were they any MiG-25 RBs left in 1991?
If yes what was their participation in DS?

No ... The PDS is the modernization of the P model ... RB still present and used only 1 time were 2 RBs used to drag F-15s to SAM sites on Jan 19 .. Both were shut downed ... and frankly I don't know why they choose the F-15C to drag ?!!
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Unread post05 Oct 2015, 08:39

So, 19 Mig 25 PD and PDS and how many RBs? what was the RBs squadron?
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Unread post05 Oct 2015, 09:23

nikolaos wrote:So, 19 Mig 25 PD and PDS and how many RBs? what was the RBs squadron?

Squadron 87 but the number of RBs I don't remember ... Some of them I think were also with squadron 97
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Unread post06 Oct 2015, 15:00

oldiaf wrote:...and frankly I don't know why they choose the F-15C to drag ?!!

For several reasons.

Primary is that because although supported by digital computers, the KARI was still providing only 'analog' radar picture (that's why it was susceptible to bogus radar contacts caused by weather, too).

Other was that the IrAF considered it critical to bag some of F-15s, to make their crews less bold.

And finally: some of controllers were making mistakes by vectoring interceptors at the first target they could detect. Protected by less powerful ECM, F-15s were 'more visible' than better-protected fighter-bombers.

BTW, are you 100% sure these were MiG-25RBs on 19 January?
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Unread post06 Oct 2015, 15:08

tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:...and frankly I don't know why they choose the F-15C to drag ?!!

For several reasons.

Primary is that because although supported by digital computers, the KARI was still providing only 'analog' radar picture (that's why it was susceptible to bogus radar contacts caused by weather, too).

Other was that the IrAF considered it critical to bag some of F-15s, to make their crews less bold.

And finally: some of controllers were making mistakes by vectoring interceptors at the first target they could detect. Protected by less powerful ECM, F-15s were 'more visible' than better-protected fighter-bombers.

BTW, are you 100% sure these were MiG-25RBs on 19 January?

Yes .... They should be and they were not armed ... The only things go against this that they were from squadron 97 which operate PDS version ... It is possible the planes were borrowed from squadron 87 but the pilots were from 97 because they were more experienced in AA combat .. This happenend before with Mirage pilots during Iraq-Iran war and later in DS on Jan 24 raid ... Ultimately both MiG-25s were downed 1 Pilot Captain Saad Naema ejected but injured while Lt. Hussain Abdulsattar was killed
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Unread post24 Jun 2017, 04:56

Hello,

i know this is an old post. I served on an STT team at Al Asad in 2010-2011 and this individual, Dawood, had become a Brigade Commander in the 7th Iraqi Army Division. Many of the old pilots became Army officers once the air force disbanded in 2003, He still wore his brown flight jacket and spoke English. My counterpart, COL Foaad who was the Division G5 introduced me to him and told me he had shot down Speicher. Dawood told me he launched in a 2 seat trainer MiG-25 armed with 2 R40s. This is the aircraft that shot down Speicher, it was not a single seat interceptor. This particular aircraft is held for preserve by the Iraqi Army at Camp Mejid on Al Asad because of its significance, it is held in a fenced field. I have a picture with it. There are also several MiG-21s there which are ace aircraft from the Iran/Iraq war. Al Asad (Al Qadisiyah) had squadrons of MiG-25 and MiG-21, nothing else. TQ in Fallujah had the MiG-29s. There they still sit. Those aircraft never flew again after 2003.
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Unread post24 Jun 2017, 19:57

Dawoud told you himself he took off in a MiG-25PU (Foxbat C) with 2 x R-40T or TDs ? - which if genuine that version had no radar so one reason why an RWR would never pick anything up.

Don't suppose you took his email address :)

How many Dawouds are there in Iraq claiming this kill btw?
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Unread post30 Sep 2017, 07:11

brcampbe01 wrote:Hello,

... Dawood told me he launched in a 2 seat trainer MiG-25 armed with 2 R40s. This is the aircraft that shot down Speicher, it was not a single seat interceptor. ...


Here a link to loads of photos of MiG-25PU (two-seat conversion trainer): https://www.airplane-pictures.net/type.php?p=4571

Mind showing me what radar should it have that could support deployment of R-40 missiles?
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
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