The downing of Speicher F/A-18: Iraqi perspective Jan 1991

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
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oldiaf

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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 17:07

So You acknowledge the B-52 was engaged by MiG-29 of Khdir Ahjeb not by HARM fired from F-4G
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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 19:12

piston wrote:OK, as more and more questions appeared, I lost the track completely....

Let's say I knew that F-18 was shot head on, 'till now.... :doh:

:wink:

It wasn't head-on: he was on a course 015 and hit from the left - because Dawoud detected him while coming out of engagement with Anderson, who was to the left (west) from Speicher.

Crucial quesiton is now if - before engaging Anderson - Dawoud approached directly from the north (if scrambling from al-Qaddisya AB) or if he approached from Tammuz along course 260 and then turned south...

oldiaf wrote:He scrambled from Al-Qadisiya ....thats for certain ..... And with respect check your info regarding home base of 96 & 97 squadrons :
96 was in Al-Qadisiya and 97 was in Tammuz... Squadron 96 was equipped with the more capable MiG-25PD while Squadron 97 was equipped with MiG-25PDS. ....... Even with earlier sources that put Dawood with fictional squadron 84 !!! They said he scrambled from Al-Qadisiya.
Nope, sorry. The story was always 'from Tammuz'. As the IrAF's case officer for that affair, Sadik was fully in picture, had all the official documentation, including Dawoud's post-mission report etc. (he's even published a number of articles in the Iraqi press, back in late 1990s - all of which were entirely missed by all possible authorities in the USA).

Drop me an e-mail and I can send you the original manuscript (in English) Sadik and me have put together back in 2006 (which was then published in the IAPR, back in 2008, and which contains not only 'pilot-stories' but plenty of stuff from AAA- and SAM-gunners, Intel Department IrAF etc.): nobody - really: NOBODY - ever mentioned al-Qaddisiyah AB so far.

And one other thing - if the MiG-29 that was crossing path with Dawood was that of khidr Ahjeb then why the GCI warned him about a single MiG-29 while in fact Khidr Ahjed was not alone and had a wingman in another MiG-29 Pilot name Haitham Mizher.
Aha. See there: that's really 'news'.

Firstly: this is another scramble (Mizher) not mentioned in official documentation... (indeed, when I think of it: this was not mentioned even by Hijab in interview to Sadik, back in... erm, I'll keep that date for myself, for specific reason.)

Secondly: ...well, see the bottom of this post...

So You acknowledge the B-52 was engaged by MiG-29 of Khdir Ahjeb not by HARM fired from F-4G.
I never said anything else. Why should I?

But then, I'm no American curious to deny some 'filthy' MiG-driver put his R-27 into one of 'holy' B-52s - but a (strictly neutral, as always) 'Namsawi'. :wink:

Seriously now: Hijab said so to Sadik, Sadik wrote it down, I've cross-checked with somebody in the USA, and there was never any kind of a probelm with this case (published in English for the first time in same article mentioned above). The only thing unknown - until now - was that Hijab had a wingman.

This is especially 'news' because even the ONI (and that's one of coolest US intel services, if I'm to ask) was all the time reporting that the IrAF was capable of single-ship nocturnal intercept ops only (for example in SPEARTIP 014/90).

Indeed, that's going to be a big surprise for quite a few people I happen to know...
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
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Unread post05 Sep 2015, 20:06

That was not the only mission of night intercept involving 2 aircrafts and as example the 2 MiG-29s from squadron 39 that were shut downed by USAF F-15Cs Draeger and Magill over Talha Air field ... were together ... Both Pilots killed : Major Tariq Saeed and Captain Emad Mohammed ... This happened at night right ?
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Unread post06 Sep 2015, 12:53

tomcooper wrote:Not much to see except the two...

Anyway: take some map of Iraq west/south-west of Baghdad.

Draw a line along a course 260° from Tammuz to 42° E - and you've got Dawoud's initial course.

Then draw a line along a course of 15° in direction of Ayn Zazu (a town west of Ramadi) - and you've got initial course of F/A-18s.

Keep in mind aircraft separation in standard USN formations, that Anderson was on the left (western) side of Sunliners' wall, and Speicher on its right (eastern) end, while the first four A-6Es were further south/south-west, in a trail with 4-5 miles separation between single aircraft.

...and everything should be 'crystal clear'.

That will be correct if he scrambled from Tammuz AB ... But he didn't , he flow from Al-Qadisiya AB and as you said it will only fit the description of events
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Unread post06 Sep 2015, 14:55

Guys, post some schemes, please!
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Unread post07 Sep 2015, 07:55

Sry, too busy for that (too): since two days, we've got about 20,000 Syrian, Iraqi, Afghan and other refugees coming in via Hungary and longing to reach Germany, and I'm trying to help there.

Most are in need of some sort of care, whether food, clothes (it got quite chilly here, after the latest heat wave), and especially: safety.

(Perhaps) more when I'm back...
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Unread post07 Sep 2015, 08:17

tomcooper wrote:Sry, too busy for that (too): since two days, we've got about 20,000 Syrian, Iraqi, Afghan and other refugees coming in via Hungary and longing to reach Germany, and I'm trying to help there.

Most are in need of some sort of care, whether food, clothes (it got quite chilly here, after the latest heat wave), and especially: safety.

(Perhaps) more when I'm back...


Good on you sir. I had the unfortunate task of watching many of them (through a monochrome ATFLIR feed) either being gunned down by ISIS firing squads, or running for their lives through northern Iraq/north-eastern Syria. My only wish during that period of time was that I could have done something for those kids and families. I'm glad there are some folks out there like yourself who are.
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Unread post07 Sep 2015, 10:00

35_aoa wrote:
tomcooper wrote:Sry, too busy for that (too): since two days, we've got about 20,000 Syrian, Iraqi, Afghan and other refugees coming in via Hungary and longing to reach Germany, and I'm trying to help there.

Most are in need of some sort of care, whether food, clothes (it got quite chilly here, after the latest heat wave), and especially: safety.

(Perhaps) more when I'm back...


Good on you sir. I had the unfortunate task of watching many of them (through a monochrome ATFLIR feed) either being gunned down by ISIS firing squads, or running for their lives through northern Iraq/north-eastern Syria. My only wish during that period of time was that I could have done something for those kids and families. I'm glad there are some folks out there like yourself who are.

Apart from Syrians .... Why the Iraqis remember to go for Europe now ?!!! Al-Qaida before was brutal just like ISIS now but the fact it was the European countries closed their doors for them back then and re-open it now .... Simply the Iraqis ( most of them ) are migrating for economic reasons rather than safety.
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Unread post07 Sep 2015, 19:31

oldiaf wrote:
35_aoa wrote:
tomcooper wrote:Sry, too busy for that (too): since two days, we've got about 20,000 Syrian, Iraqi, Afghan and other refugees coming in via Hungary and longing to reach Germany, and I'm trying to help there.

Most are in need of some sort of care, whether food, clothes (it got quite chilly here, after the latest heat wave), and especially: safety.

(Perhaps) more when I'm back...


Good on you sir. I had the unfortunate task of watching many of them (through a monochrome ATFLIR feed) either being gunned down by ISIS firing squads, or running for their lives through northern Iraq/north-eastern Syria. My only wish during that period of time was that I could have done something for those kids and families. I'm glad there are some folks out there like yourself who are.

Apart from Syrians .... Why the Iraqis remember to go for Europe now ?!!! Al-Qaida before was brutal just like ISIS now but the fact it was the European countries closed their doors for them back then and re-open it now .... Simply the Iraqis ( most of them ) are migrating for economic reasons rather than safety.


You'd know better than I, but either way, it was a depressing spectacle to watch
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Unread post07 Sep 2015, 19:58

I met some of the refugees in Belgium few weeks ago and got that picture from them.
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Unread post10 Sep 2015, 08:52

35_aoa wrote:Good on you sir. I had the unfortunate task of watching many of them (through a monochrome ATFLIR feed) either being gunned down by ISIS firing squads, or running for their lives through northern Iraq/north-eastern Syria. My only wish during that period of time was that I could have done something for those kids and families. I'm glad there are some folks out there like yourself who are.
...what shall I answer to that...?!?

For me, the situation in the Middle East is well beyond infuriating.

If I start bragging about all the ones guilty/responsible for it, there is going to be no end...

oldiaf wrote:Apart from Syrians .... Why the Iraqis remember to go for Europe now ?!!!

There is a mix of primary reasons: unbearable conditions at home, unbearable conditions in refugee camps of Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey... and then it's simply summer. Weather is good and traffickers have no problem with loading them into anything that swimms, then send them over the Med for Greece or Italy.

The weather is 'responsible' (so to say) why as many of them are arriving ('now'): most of those trying to do that trip in winter disappear somewhere in the Med, without a trace (at best, their bodies appear then on beaches of southern Italy). Traffickers don't care about them: they cash per head, bunch 200 people on a boat that could barely carry 20, and then send the boat in northern direction. Most of the times engine malfunctions much too soon. If not, they issue calls on international emergency frequencies and then run away... (these ***** know much too well EU coastal guards are going to do their best to save people in emergency...).

And regarding 'economic reasons'... well, most of those I've got to see were kids, youngsters/teenagers and pregnant women. Lack words to describe it any better, but I've seen very few adult men the last few days. Most have been registered as refugees in Greece (which is in the EU) and Turkey (not in EU) already, but (for reasons I'll discuss below) they are obsessed with getting to Germany. After travelling over Macedonia and Serbia they got stranded in Hungary. Hungarians are treating them really... at least in fashion that for many of refugees is reminiscent of the way Assad's thugs were treating them in Syria....

After these people have spent days (if not weeks) in simmering heat around the major train station in Budapest (or in various camps in Serbia), German Chancelor Merkel came to the idea to simply let them in, last week. Austrian government agreed to let them pass...

Meanwhile, Merkel agreed with Hungarian government to tranship refugees from Budapest and Debrecen to the Austrian border. Hungarians... sigh... they're really.... sigh... they provided busses that brought the first large group - 2000-3000 - about 4-5km close to the Austrian border. Then they simply dropped them there and left them march over... More were brought in per train from Budapest to Vienna. Meanwhile, there are several huge columns literaly marching all the way over 300km from Budapest (or from Debrecen, for example) in direction of Vienna...

Hand at heart: **** the rest of the EU, especially all the a-holes pocketing billions of EU subventions since decades, but are now looking the other way. If it has to be, we'll solve this on our own.

Here in Austria all the possible NGOs are organizing (and providing) plenty of aid for refugees. Even the ÖBB (national railway company) started providing about a dozen of trains a day to carry them from Vienna to Salzburg, where they change to German trains - which are then re-distributing them around Germany.

For people like me, there is meanwhile little to do but help distribute water-bottles, food, clothes, help with translation (primary to English, less so to Arabic, since my Arabic is very poor), perhaps with some 'orientation' too... Various NGOs are doing much more. Yesterday I actually drove quite deep into Hungary and picked up three Syrian families: brought them to one of gathering points in Austria... Some say this should be punishable by Hungarian law, as 'human trafficking', but I would never demand any money for that, and actually... well, after hearing about that thug of a Hungarian neo-nazi reporter beating some of refugess, I couldn't care less any more... I would nearly say, 'good no Hungarian appeared in front of my eyes', during those few hectic hours...

One of particularly shocking things is the number of pregnant women - and kids in general. It's a subjective feeling if you like, but most of people I've got to see were either pregnant women or kids... That said, it's not as if the 'rest' was any much older: most of 'adult's I've got to see were in their 20-somethings.... A kind of 'blow' was a 7-days old girl: born on flight, literally 'somewhere in Hungary', last week... (she's meanwhile in Germany, together with her mother).

Another impression was their incredibly naïve belief in Germany as some sort of 'land of milk and honey'. 'Everything is going to be fine if they get there'.... Especially teenage Syrians, even few Afghans I met yesterday, are kind of obsessed with 'becoming Germans'. Out of thousands that passed through Austria the last few days, less than 100 decided to stay here (in Austria). Didn't have heart to spoil anybody's expectations, nor really time to explain them something about reality (especially those with apparent beliefs similar to those of neo-Nazis here), but it's sure so that there is going to be plenty of rude awakening once they're there (in Germany)...

Overall feeling: majority of Syrians (and Iraqis) I met were well-educated, coming from 'higher middle class'. No surprise: poor people lack the money to pay traffickers... Most are speaking English. They make a rather 'progressive' impression: next to nobody religious (in the last six days I saw only a few praying, only one woman wearing chador/burqa; on the contrary, saw plenty of young ladies wearing jeans, some even shorts). Many had relatives living somewhere in Europe too. None of them was really eager to flee their homes, but since it had to be, they did so and then they want 'to Germany' (again: call this 'subjective' - but keep in mind I wasn't running any kind of official polls there, just chatting...).

Now, while - and as usually - all the Syrians I met were (i.e. are) lovely people, very friendly, cheerful and thankful, there was one thing that never stops disturbing me in negative fashion too: men, and especially young men always get all the priviledges. They are always 'first' - no matter what needs. Even young boys are often taken better care of than pregnant women (by refugees themselves)...

Guess, we'll have a lot to do alone in this regards in coming years... just for the start...

Al-Qaida before was brutal just like ISIS now but the fact it was the European countries closed their doors for them back then and re-open it now .... Simply the Iraqis ( most of them ) are migrating for economic reasons rather than safety.
...given it was Ba'thists who transformed the former AQ in Iraq into this beast of Daesh... and a quasi-Ba'ath regime in Syria who left them flourish (with help of money from Tehran)... PLEASE, let's stop here and right now. Like I said: this is all beyond infuriating for me.

Back to 'Speicher Affair'...
F-Arba-Ashara!! Yalla, yalla!!
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 03:57

Thanks for the writeup Tomcooper. Sorry that you and others are dealing with racist morons. I saw the video of the beating in Hungary and it made me pissed off as well. I'd also agree that average, non-radical, middle easterners are some of the most charitable friendly hosts I have ever encountered. Super friendly, always quick to shower you with dinner or hospitality, and generally cautiously interested and supportive (at least to some extent) of the west/Americans. Many are also highly educated in spite of their meager circumstances, and of course we can't forget the historical hand they played as a culture in modern art, literature, mathematics, science and just about everything else related to humanity. Unfortunately they keep getting bogged down with uneducated, religious thugs and those who are either quietly sympathetic in private (cough Saudi Arabia), or simply turn their heads and let it happen out of fear.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 12:15

oldiaf wrote:
tomcooper wrote:Not much to see except the two...

Anyway: take some map of Iraq west/south-west of Baghdad.

Draw a line along a course 260° from Tammuz to 42° E - and you've got Dawoud's initial course.

Then draw a line along a course of 15° in direction of Ayn Zazu (a town west of Ramadi) - and you've got initial course of F/A-18s.

Keep in mind aircraft separation in standard USN formations, that Anderson was on the left (western) side of Sunliners' wall, and Speicher on its right (eastern) end, while the first four A-6Es were further south/south-west, in a trail with 4-5 miles separation between single aircraft.

...and everything should be 'crystal clear'.

That will be correct if he scrambled from Tammuz AB ... But he didn't , he flow from Al-Qadisiya AB and as you said it will only fit the description of events

The map remains the same: just draw the line from al-Qadisiya down the course 175° to see where Dawoud went.

If you pull that line 'too far' south, it's 'colliding' with Anderson's course.
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Unread post12 Sep 2015, 22:58

I have a question :
Why Lt. Zuhair Dawood Squadron reported to be number 84 instead of 96 as soon as details of this incident showed on media ?!
Like in this site and in many others :
http://fly.historicwings.com/2013/01/fi ... ast-found/
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Unread post16 Sep 2015, 02:52

I have to correct something .... The first attack hit Iraqi targets which occured at 0238 was that of the AH-64 Apaches on EW radars across Arar in KSA not that of F-117A on Nukhaib AD intercept operation center which happened at 0251 ... and since the timing of the scramble call to Zuhair Dawood was at the same time of the Apaches attack so the Iraqis knew about it after all ... Not just what said at time that they debated even after the war if this attack really happened !!
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